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Rav Avigdor Miller on The Sinking Boat of the Zionist State
Q: How should we relate to Medinas Yisroel?
A: Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing! These שקרנים, these liars, are trying to get us involved. So they’re trying to say that all the Arab states and all the other states are enemies of the Jews. That’s a lie! So you’ll say, “But isn’t it true that the Arabs are enemies of the Jews?” It could be, but they’re not different than other gentiles. The fact that they are against the State of Israel is a political expediency that has nothing to do with us, the Am Yisroel. And therefore, we shouldn’t allow ourselves to be drawn into this maelstrom of political hatred that the Zionists would like to have us committed to. They want us all to be committed to their fight, so that we should all be in the same boat, chas vesholom. We’ll all sink together. Nothing doing! Nothing doing! We’re a separate entity!
And the truth is, we’re more than separate. They’re against the Torah! They’re atheists! Golda Meir is an atheist. A man gave me a clipping this week. Golda Meir wrote a memoir. She wrote there that in 1917 she got married. So she said she doesn’t want to be married by a rabbi. She said that she’s a Socialist – she doesn’t want to have anything to do with Torah – and she refused. She had a long, drawn out fight with her mother in Milwaukee. Her mother said, “You’ll ruin me if you’ll just get married in City Hall.” But Golda Meir insisted. She didn’t want.
Finally, her mother said, “Look, just because of fifteen minutes under the chuppah that you don’t want to do, you are willing to ruin my name in Milwaukee?” So she consented. She was married by a rabbi.
These people are our enemies. They hate Judaism! Not that they are merely indifferent; they hate it. You know that when Sadat came to America, so they served him a kosher meal for Mohammedans. Mohammedans can’t eat everything, and so they served only a meal that a Mohammedan can eat. But when these people came, from the Knesses, they served shrimp! They served shrimp! So you see that these people don’t represent us.
So our connection with the irreligious Zionists is the same connection as our connection with the Christians. You must be polite to irreligious Jews, and try to win them over with kindliness. But you must know that they’re not ours. When the Torah says that a Jew is אחיך – “Your brother,” it means “your brother in mitzvos.” He’s only a brother if he’s אחיך במצוות – only the one who has the same commitment to מצוות as you have is your brother.
Tape # 99 (November 1975)
Menachem Begin wasnt relgious, however outside Israel he only ate Kosher and wore a Kippah
Zdad, wasn’t he somewhat religious?
We say in the seder Shafoch Chamoscho on the nations who don’t know you and the those who don’t call you that is they know you but don’t call you according the Satmar Rav those are the Zionist.
Yawn….
BTW…Aren’t you the same guy that keeps sending the same type stuff to the TV Vues??…
Are you & the Bal Chumra editor there tight ??“……Shafoch Chamoscho….. those are the Zionist….”
Great point.
Shefoch Chamoscho isn’t extant in any Aggadah prior to 1947.
Estimation is that even museums with a Judaica collection have no such Aggadah.
What a revelation.Begin wasnt relgious at all, however he felt when representing Israel he should present a relgious front. Privately in israel he was Mechalel Shabbos and ate non-kosher, but he never did so out of Israel which is one of the reasons many Charedim like him. At least he respected Yiddishkeit even if he wasnt totally frum
Please do not feed the troll. May Hashem grant him a refuah sheleimah.
Please do not feed the troll. May Hashem grant him a refuah sheleimah.
Funniest thing I’ve seen today!
ZionGate, see RMA in Shulchon Aruch Orech Chaim (380) that some say to say the passage Shefoch Chamoscho in name of the Ran which I did not find. The Rambam does not have it but the Chidoh does.
Laskern,
Ziongate was being facetious.
Shefoch Chamoscho happens to be a pasuk in Tehilim (79,6)
ZD, you are over on a takknat kadmonim not to be motzi shem ra on the dead. You have to go to Begin’s grave and ask forgiveness. Begin was a traditional Jew. When he was wanted by the British he successfully assumed the identity of a rabbi. When he visited the US after becoming PM he consulted with Rav Soloveichik, Rav Moshe and the Lubavitcher Rebbe. As a young man in Brisk he even went o the separate-swimming pool frequented by the yeshiva men. After his wife died the Chevra Kadish was hesitant to bury her among tzddikot. He told them that she kept taharat hamishpacha and they went ahead with the burial.
Joseph, are trolls included in “amiteicha”?
In a few months it’ll be Yom Haatzmaut.
There’s a free circular in the NY area calling itself TV VUes in which some guy calling himself Yankel Schwartz or similar, sends this type of hate during that time every year.
I’m looking at you, Joseph.If someone disagrees with you, ZionGate, it must be hatred.
“….Could it be it was merely stated in defeat?….”
Let me bud in on this one, Avi.
It’s he, Joseph, and his like minded chevra that are in defeat. They’re in denial and live in the past, dredging up old pieces of regurgitated clippings.
B”H , Hodu LaShem, for EY . Growing in everything, including the ingathering of Jews from all over….. The nissim and miracles are too numerous to write here… So may are hidden and we don’t even know about them …
These hate filled people have already, and forever , been defeated.
They’re modern day meraglim who purport to know Hashem’s ways. Nachbi ben Vofsi, as an example of the rest of the 10, was a huge gadol and talmid chacham. Yet, he and his reshoim gang brought about a bechiya ledorot.
Joseph: You lost, get over it already.“….Do you get the Television Vues to keep up with the local television shows …”
As you well know, but others might not, it’s an advertising medium for sales of the week by local stores.
The bigger question is: Why do YOU read and then write to this mag?
Is “hypocrisy” an apt word here?
In fact, when do you learn any Torah at all, being that you’re here 24/6, and bother with a TV sked circular?
( which , in case people don’t know, is hardly even the case)DaasYochid,
Surely you’re aware of the curses against EY that many fanatics say with their impure mouths.
Curses that I don’t even want to repeat here ; but they are basically avile hope about the destruction………
We know who they are, they even use children in camp to repeat this mantra.
THIS is what’s hate, DaasYochid.
I’d like to see if Joe Schwartz or Yossie G. agrees, and if he doesn’t, let him here and now, disavow it.When you can distinguish between Eretz Yisroel and, l’havdil, the State of Israel, we can discuss.
DY……There’s no need to discuss.
It’s been discussed ad infinitum. Basic point being… Again… That you guys don’t have a clue why Hashem did it His way…
But maybe a clue can found in the words of gedolei Yisroel , for example the rabbi of Gur and R’ Sonnenfeld who said , that if more frum people who have made Aliya , it would have looked different. Hashem had His plan, and the ultra extremists tried to thwart it….. Atzas Hashem Hee Sokum…. Now you guyz go back into the time machine.
Millions of us are living in the present and hope for a glorious future.Life is not all or nothing, There is a place in-between. There was never an “Eretz Yisroel” as some imagine it. Is the current state of Israel perfect? of course not. But its a lot better than the alternative.
I think too many romantize the Shtel’s and dont realize how good they have it
But maybe a clue can found in the words of gedolei Yisroel , for example the rabbi of Gur and R’ Sonnenfeld who said , that if more frum people who have made Aliya , it would have looked different. Hashem had His plan, and the ultra extremists tried to thwart it….
Actually, R’ Sonnenfeld would more likely have said (the Brisker Rav did say it) that moshiach would have come had the atheist zionists not taken over.
You are again conflating Eretz Yisroel, and the mitzvah of yishuv (which the Gerrer Rebbe and R’ Sonnenfeld were in favor of), with a secular political entity.
You cannot legitimately complain about someone ch”v cursing Eretz Yisroel, when they in fact curse the secular political entity, and not the Holy Land.
“…Actually, R’ Sonnenfeld would more likely have said…”
More likely, less likely, never likely.
I’m writing what he said.
“….You cannot legitimately complain about someone ch”v cursing Eretz Yisroel,…”
Oh , no??
When adults and kids are cursing for destruction and there are millions of Torah Jews there?
This secular entity contains Jews… Yidden…“…..cannot legitimately complain…”
Ok, so I’ll , illegitimately complain… That they are foul mouthed sickos who should be vomited out of our midst.
Who’s foul mouthed? Who’s a hater?
Unfortuantly the issue of Yiridas HaDoros has been proven by many in leadership positions
To all those that are Anti-Zionist:
Note: It is only Mutar to give Tochacha to those that there is a chance that they will do Teshuva. In all my years, I have rarely met a Zionist that was ready to concede to any point of contention against Zionism. Therefore, there is little value in discussion on this topic.
“…..Who’s foul mouthed? Who’s a hater?….”
So I’m foulmouthed for saying ” vomit them out” and your buddies are NOT foulmouthed for wishing the murder of Jews.
Are you defending them??
DaasYochid…. That’s what you basically are…. MOST Yidden abhor this group?
You Kool Aide guzzlers have lost your minds..DY,
Don’t try to be a deluxe , cute lawyer, turning the wheel around to me.
Get into another line of work.wishing the murder of Jews
Wanting a political entity to be dismantled is not the same as wanting Jews dead. Once again, you conflate issues.
MOST Yidden abhor this group?
I’m not sure which group you’re referring to. If you’re referring to the Holocaust denier hugging NK, then I would say that most Yidden abhor their actions. If you’re referring to those who protest the State of Israel, then I would agree that many disagree with their methods (myself included).
You are the one who seems to be admitting to abhorring other Yidden – don’t drag others into it, and don’t blame me for turning the wheel on you, when you did it to yourself.
Very well put ZG. The Gra says that the Erev Rav can even be talmidei chachamim and that in the time just before Mashiach the sin of the spies will infect those who hold on to the Torah. Rav Teichtal also said this in Em haBanim Semeicha. However, their numbers are steadily shrinking. The younger generation of Chareidim want to be part of the state. In fact, if Ayelet Shaked gets her way we will also have a female Chareidi judge – Chavi Toker, whose father-in-law Naftali Toker zatzal was the rosh yeshiva of the Chevron Yeshiva, and is a senior attorney in the Jerusalem DA’s office.
Yes, Avi K,
They’ve besmirched Rav Teichtal H”YD and others who agreed with him. His sefer is a goldmine of names of tzaddikim who agreed with him… or that he agreed with them.
It seems that young Chareidim are abandoning the shitas in droves, looking for employment and wanting a higher education.“…..then I would say that most Yidden abhor their actions……….You are the one who seems to be admitting to abhorring other Yidden …”
Only those to whom you’re alluding…. and their sympathizers.
You’re putting words in my mouth.
And if I abhor them, I don’t for a second hate them.
Don’t put words in my mouth.DY,
I was referring to the Satmar group as well as the NK or Natrunah which runs out of Williamsburgh.
In short, they run a summer camp and … etc… etc. And yes, I abhor them. They consider even frum Jews who are Zionists less Jewish than themselves. Let’s be realistic here.
I’m not conflating reasonable debate among reasonable people on either side.
Remember… this thread by this individual, began as a gratuitious attack and added lashon hara where no conversation was held about this subject. This individual has thrown around the words Yemach Shemo here and on other sites that he visits and the circular to which I already alluded. This is the line of thinking of the above mentioned extremists, who have a history of harassment, cursing burning in effigy….. And now I’m specifically talking about Williamsburgh… And specifically decades ago…. I ,as were others, were witnesses to these events.
Maybe you’re too young to know…. maybe too young to know what they did to even rabbonim whom they suspected of Zionist heresy. What you’re getting these days is out- and- out revision of these events.
Cursing the entity with the worst klollos, praying for its destruct….. is abhorrent…. Rejected by any and all sane anti-Zionists, and too gross an evil to draw fine lines about what it includes.
Bottom line… That to which I refer, is a grubb, primitive Jew hating mentality … I make no apologies for what I wrote.Well, you should.
….. And what they said about Rav Shteinman Zichrono Livracho, and the things they did after his petirah..
Rachmona Litzlon…. Unspeakable…….I’ll end with this.
What began decades ago, still continues .
Their weeklies ( Yes, I read Yiddish) are filled with the worst kind of language, shameless slander, hate and propaganda imaginable. Many of you would be shocked that Chareidi newspapers print words that border on obscene.
Have a wonderful, happy Adar.
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