The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

@ CS

You: “How do you know if someone is not normal?” Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t? When you see evidence that…they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league.”

Me: “No, even if all of the above would be 100% verifiably true this would prove nothing at all. This is very important. In fact Rav Yaacov Hillel wrote “Faith and Folly” precisely to combat this misconception (among others). He wrote it at the behest of just about all the gedolim Sefardi, Litvish, Chassidish (see haskamos to his sefer).”

You: I don’t understand your point here. Please elaborate.

I’ll be glad to

In a nutshell. You are advancing the following proposition: The Lubavitcher Rebbe (subject) is Unique in his, and subsequent generation in that the following is true specifically and exclusively regarding him
a) He is the Nassi HaDor (predicate)
b) He is the Moshe Rebbeinu of the Generation (predicate)
c) He is a Tzadik as per the Tanya (predicate)

you cite 2 categories of positive evidence as grounds for accepting the above proposition

1) The types of accomplishments you listed above.
a)Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t
b) Can sense and see things normal people can’t.
c) Can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul.

2) That he was regarded as such by many contemporary Gedolim.

My point is that:

The 1st category of evidence is not evidence because even if was 100% verified and accepted as fact it would not be relevant to accepting your proposition. It’s not relevant because:

Step 1 – None of those abilities are unique to a Tzadik (meaning that even non-tzadikim can have them)
Step 2 – Therefore having these abilities does not establish one who possesses them as a Tzadik.

The 2nd category of evidence would in fact be very relevant to accepting your proposition if it in fact existed. But it doesn’t. What does exist is that numerous Gedolim who were contemporaries of the Lubavitcher Rebbe did hold him in very high esteem and regarded him as a Gadol B’Yisroel. This is a matter of record and is undisputable. You have cited many examples of this in previous threads. So, if your proposition would have been “The Lubavitcher Rebbe was a Gadol B’Yisroel” I would agree that the evidence you cited in previous threads is relevant to accepting THAT proposition. But that is not what you are proposing.

About chabadshlucha King Solomon said:do not argue with a fool in his foolishness.

I reread Cs’s explaining away and can’t get over how consistently illogical it is. I’m honestly floored you could write that reply. can someone please pick it apart; im far too lazy to address each crazy point.

CS: “Regarding what you see as problems in lubavitch that result from the Rebbes shittos, the only way to properly discuss that is to analyse the extent of the problems in our community and yours and see which is worse. Since as Daas yochid pointed out that is not ok as it infringes on issurim, I have retracted that mode of addressing it and I would advise you and DY as well to abide by the same halacha I am being expected to abide by.”

1. You are implying that my community suffers from what you hinted to. They definitely do NOT! I know this for a fact and, as you may have noticed, I am a cynic and not someone who just believes what feels good. So your implication is offensive. On the other hand, I DO know a lot of what goes on in Lubavich and the situation is NOT good, to say the least. As we have mentioned, where there is a lack of tznius there is ALWAYS a lack of kedusha R”L.

2. It’s not lashon hara if there is a clear to’eles, and the to’eles I’m aiming for is twofold. First, to show you and your colleagues that you have what to fix up urgently before preaching. Second, to warn others of the situation so that they shouldn’t be blindly caught up by your nice friendly explanations of how fantastic lubavich is. Your chassidus’s lack of tznius is a great danger to everybody who is involved with them, and IMHO it is even more dangerous than a lot of the other stuff I have been protesting..

Hi. Does anyone remember me? I used to be BurnTFACE but forgot my password and can’t even access my old email address so Ive had to change my name to tfaceBURN but I’m the same person as before.
For those who may not remember I was broudht up in a Lubavitcher family, went throught the system and eventually lef after Gimmel Tammuz when I woke up to what Lubavitch really is. I am one of the very few, oerhaps only two or three, who have remained Chassidic and joined other chassidishe groups.
I give myself credit for lasting so long without mixing in but the pressure has been building and I can’t hold back.
sam wrote “Why does Lubavitch force itself into frum neighborhoods who have their manhigim & minhogim?”
Part of what we were taught in Lubavitch was that we are the best by far, and that the other chassidim (aka Poilishe chassidim) have only a shadow of Toras haBaal Shem Tov. Of course, it goes without saying that even they are far better than snags!
Anyhow a major aim of our mashpiim was to get us to go bedarchei noam to other shtiblech and shuls and to make the others realize that our way was the only really good and proper way of serving Hashem. Getting them to accept that the Rebbe is the Nossi Hador and will soon be revealed as Moshiach would certainly hasten the geulah.
To show us how this was not a difficult taks we were told that all chassidim look up to our Rebbe and that all chassidim, even the big groups like Belz and Vihznitz (not Satmar because they aren’t really chassidim as their Rebbe said nistakcha Toras haBaal Shem Tov) refer to their rebbes by their title, e.g. Belzer Rebbe, Vizhnitzer Rebbe, but when they refer to our Rebbe they just say “the Rebbe” because they know that he is way above theirs.
I am embarrassed to admit that I actually believed it until a short while after I joined a different Chassidic group and asking them why it was true. They looked at me as if I was crazy.
So, sam, theres your answer. Its very important to bring the geulah by waking up others and getting them to see the light.

CS – why are you trying to bend over backwards to explain yourself to these people? Ah snag is ah snag! We just passed the Yom Tov of Rosh Chodesh Kislev which taught us az der Rebbe Shlita is gezunt, now and always, Melech Hamoshiach chai vekayam! Everybody had the chance to listen and be mekabel, and everyone still has that chance,but now after Gimmel Tammuz, in the helem vehester, the time for darchei noam is past! Those who will stubbornly refuse to accept the obvious reality of Who the Rebbe is, who allow the akrov of krirus to bite them, will remain with their gedaylim – oisoi hoish and the shoifech domim – lecherpos ulederoin oilom! If they truly want to learn they can open the hundreds of volumes of Toras Emes in the Rebbe’s Sichos and Maamorim. And leave behind the kindereshe naarishkeiten they learned in their places. But for a shlucha of the Rebbe to carpenter herself to them? Feh!

Carpenter – should have said farentfer.

Mr “Tomim”,
Please do society a favor and crawl back into your cave in Tzfas. You’re an embarrassment to Lubavitch, and society at large. I don’t actually think you’re a Tomim, you’re probably a Tzugekumener trying to feel good about yourself.

Also, Carpenter??

RSO,

Goes to show that you’re not actually so familiar with Lubavitch:)
I never heard this person being nicknamed “Shofech Domim” but I got the inference right away.

RebYid- what do you need translated?

SechelHayashar vi a deifen akumah – ich hob gegessen di kasha fun Tomchei Tmimim und gelernt gruntig vi der Rebbe Rashab n”e hut geheist! And you were still in diapers, if you were even born yet. Ver meinst du az du bist?!

Shlucha – with all our ahavas Yisroel we still proudly say the nineteenth brocho which was added in Yavneh! We dont have to hem and haw and be politically correct and say that other kreizen also had tzaddikim and try to imply that they were even close to the level of our Rebbe – we are proud that we have a Rebbe who is the nefesh hakoilel, the Nossi hader, Mepech Hamoshiach Leoilom Voed! The Nesiei Chabad were special neshomois mishichmom ulemaala gevoihim miko ho’om, and bifrat the tzaddik hashvii hu Dovid beatzmoi! All the Chachmomim who want to compare him to this one and to that one, and even to frierdiker doiros, do you not realize that Moshiach is different?! When the Melech Hamoshiach is misgaleh bimeheira beyomeinu, and is the Nossi and the Melech and the Novi, will you also tzi your beards and say but how can he be greater than the Rashbo who was none of those things? Leave aside your kleinkeppelkeit before it’s too late! Yes there were feineh Yidden in other kreizen, and even tzaddikim, but we do not need to be ashamed to say that none of them could rihr un unzer Rebbin Shlita!

Mr. Tomim; I have yet to hear a mekor in the Torah for a designated live individual as Moshiach who thereafter died and is still designated as Moshiach min meisaya.

I have to hand it to him. Someone had to kill this thread somehow. This is fine work.

I meant the whole post, except for carpenter, which I understood somehow.

@ TT

That was pretty much neo christianity.

Nebech

Oh, and the 19th bracho was enacted against minim ie. the early christians

Go figure

Maybe the shofech damim he was referring to is a reference is to Titus, who is mentioned in the same gemara as being judged in gehenom ldorei dorot along with oto haish (if you look at the uncensored version)

Guess every group has there “special cases”. I was a bit surprised by CS’s rather mild response, Ahavas Yisroel is the least of his problems.

@ Out Of Towner

I was thinking of the Chazal he was referring to. Thank you for providing the nimshal.

@ SH

“Goes to show that you’re not actually so familiar with Lubavitch:)
I never heard this person being nicknamed “Shofech Domim” but I got the inference right away”

The fact that you got the inference right away reflects very poorly on the company you keep, far worse than TTs post in fact.

Could someone translate Tomim’s post please?

To clarify, this particular person whom TT named Shofech Domim isn’t called anything other than his name. The company I keep doesn’t refer to him as such, nor have I ever heard such a thing. But as Out of Towner I presume correctly assumed, if one were to have heard the story told about him that OOT alluded to, you would get the name “Shofech Domim” used by TT.
Again, I have never heard him called that in my life.

Many of you are seriously twisting my words. I understand the reference just like OOT understood it, because he and I have both heard the same story circulated.

Neville, I do think TT is a troll, perhaps an ex Lubavitcher, and a well versed one at the. And even if he did once eat “The Kasheh (buckwheat) of Tomchei Tmimim, doesn’t give him license to Bashmutz the Rebbe like he is doing, regardless of whether he means to or not.

If you really hold your Rebbe in high regard, he doesn’t need to be Moshiach to be your Rebbe. Moshel Lemo Hadovor domeh, a wife who holds her husband in high esteem doesn’t expect of him to be the Posek HaDor, or Warren Buffet. (Whatever her priorities are). A Rebbe doesn’t have to be Moshiach in order to be a true Tzaddik.

TT, apparently your Kasheh in Tomchei Tmimim was spiked:)

“Because while it is clear to everyone that he doesn’t really represent Chabad, he does prove the point we’ve been making all along.”

He is either a real lubavicher to the right of center who doesn’t believe in keeping what he believes quiet (there are lots of those) or he is someone who knows Lubavich very very well. All his comments and leshonos (aside from the Shofech Domim one) are stuff that I have heard from one person or another. It’s just that he put it all together and posted it.

Seichel and Shlucha – you think that if you present yourself as “normal”, and shy away from “uncomfortable” truths, everybody here will like you, and then you can bring them closer to the Rebbe’s truth. You are just forgetting one thing – the Rebbe Maharash – lechatchile aribber! Stand proud and sing chassidei Chabad onu talmidei hoRebbe ashreinu, and fun desvegen verou kol AMEI HOORETZ ki Sheim Haveyeh niekro olecho! Veyoru mimeko! Teikef uMiYa”D MaMo”SH!