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The way bring Moshiach is to follow כל ימי חייך להביא לימות המשיח we should be able to bring all our life accomplishments towards the days of Moshiach and not be ashamed with any of our deeds.
Neville: “RSo, I’m not sure I agree with all of your last post. Satmars are going to hold their Rebbe to be a tzaddik, Lubavitchers will hold their’s to be a tzaddik; I don’t really think we need to require them to bring proofs from other sources. ”
I never said they had to bring proofs from other sources to believe. I said they have to bring proofs from other sources to make ME believe.
Toi: “BAM! and @rso lays it down”
Wow! Thanks for the compliment. Err… that was a compliment, wasn’t it?
coffee addict: “Why keep giving her a platform to spout nonsense?
For one it shows people that don’t know that much about chabad how it really is”
Another reason is to get Lubavichers to understand that the frum world at large does not believe even the basis of what they’re saying, and to leave us alone with their weird proofs. At least, that’s my main reason.
@RSo, yes it was a compliment. I don’t have koichois to articulate every single piece of hashkafic objection that this thread demands, so I sorta jump in once in a while with a prod. Someone on the last page (which I’m obviously to lazy to go back and reference) put it down flawlessly. And I’ll add another, the underlying reason of why CS came here in the first place, all her explanations notwithstanding. It’s the exact same reason chabad saw fit to try and open a chabad house in kiryat sefer, literally the most chareidi derfl on the planet. It was not to be mekarev people, because no one there is frei. It was not to make a minyan, or provide shabbos seudos to weary travellers. It’s because they want to convert you to being chabad, plain and simple. It’s the same reason chabad ‘bochurim’ approach little (chareidi, like very chareidi) kids in the park on shabbos afternoon with the promise of candy, but only after reciting certain peukim. Can you guess which ones? No, miss CS, no one is falling for your chabad game, and all your freudian slips just helped you nail yourself.
Neville: “Also, judging a rabbi by the actions taken by his followers after his death is a dangerous road to go down.”
Not if you can attribute their current actions to following his shitos, which is precisely the case here.
Their lack of tzniyus was apparent well before he was niftar, and although it is true that he at one stage said that the girls’ school uniform should be based on the BY uniform, it wasn’t the case even in his lifetime, and he knew and saw it in the many rallies he had with women and girls.
Open and unfiltered use of the internet even by bochurim: this, I have been told by Lubavichers is because the rebbe believed in using all modern methods to be mekarev Yidden. The results are horrific, and one can almost say רחמנא ליצלן that אין בית אשר אין שם מת.
Mixing of genders was rife way before 3 Tammuz 5754. I remember being shocked at newly wed couples hosting other newlywed couples in all their “Shabbos finery” (see above re tzniyus).
One point I forgot to mention is the permissive drunkenness that is looked up to. I don’t know about the others here, but in our chassidic circles when someone becomes drunk he is deemed to have gone way overboard. In Lubavich it is par for the course and even lauded. If you don’t believe me, just attend any Lubavich wedding.
As to denigrating their rebbe, to which Neville objected on the ground that it is counter-productive, I disagree.
One of the “tricks” Lubachivers use when speaking to other frum Yidden is, “Everybody agrees that the rebbe was one of the greatest tzaddikim of the generation…” and from there it’s not a great leap to convince everyone that only chabad chassidus is the true derech of the Baal Shem, and that we should all be sending out children to chabad schools etc etc etc.
Lfan”d it is time that those of us who see through all this come out clearly and tell the truth as we see it.
CS: “Its interesting you mention specifically the Baal HaTanya as he was held to be a higher neshama than even the other Rebbeim – the Baal Shem Tov was excited about his birth as he described him as a neshama chadasha who would accomplish great things.”
And the source for that is… (drumroll)… the story books written by Lubavich, just as they are the source of most of the proofs brought by CS in this and earlier posts. Btw the Memoirs of the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe are considered creative fiction by the rest of the world. And I’m talking about chassidishe Yidden who are meivinim in chassidishe history and chassidic writings.
“One of the “tricks” Lubachivers use when speaking to other frum Yidden is, “Everybody agrees that the rebbe was one of the greatest tzaddikim of the generation…” and from there it’s not a great leap to convince everyone that only chabad chassidus is the true derech of the Baal Shem, and that we should all be sending out children to chabad schools etc etc etc.”
True, but their other trick is to dismiss anyone who criticizes the Rebbe as “Anti-Semitic against Chabad.” This lose-lose situation has been pointed out before, but it never makes any difference.
“t’s the same reason chabad ‘bochurim’ approach little (chareidi, like very chareidi) kids in the park on shabbos afternoon with the promise of candy, but only after reciting certain peukim.”
This *really*disturbs me, please tell me it isn’t true!CS: “If you give weight to an individual who had a strong agenda against lubavitch and knowing the story of hei teves etc. and cite that as an acceptable source, all that shows is how your bias against lubavitch is negatively affecting your objectivity. (No I haven’t read it nor have I am interest in it)”
I have to admit that I did not explain myself well in that post. I wasn’t saying that I believe everything your rebbe’s nephew said about your rebbe – I certainly don’t – and I wasn’t clear in that. What I was trying to say is that just as you justifiably wouldn’t believe what he wrote because he had an agenda to discredit your rebbe, I don’t believe what lubavicher chassidim write because they have an agenda to promote their rebbe.
So I DID go directly to the sources – many times many years ago when he was alive and many times after he was niftar. I read hanochos (transcripts, for the uninitiated) of farbrengens, sichos, letters and lubavich publications such as Kfar Chabad and Beis Mashiach. All of my investigation from primary sources – not the ravings of some crazy who claims the lubavicher rebbe is G-d – led me to become thoroughly disenchanted with your rebbe and his hashkofos.
His initial work in kiruv was innovative and fantastic, but then it degenerated into self-serving messianism and chauvinism. As an example, I once heard a prominent lubavicher speaking to a lubavicher audience (he probably didn’t realize that I was there as a spy 🙂 ) saying that the rebbe told Rabbi Hecht that the purpose of having the rebbe’s pictures on the side of mitzvah tanks is so that people would know who the Mashiach was. Perhaps the story is untrue. Can you either confirm or deny it?
And you didn’t address my latest challenge: Based on the rule you brought that “im rishonim …” do lubavichers agree that the Rashba was greater than your rebbe?
Neville: “their other trick is to dismiss anyone who criticizes the Rebbe as “Anti-Semitic against Chabad.” This lose-lose situation has been pointed out before, but it never makes any difference.”
I don’t see it as a lose-lose as long as I am allowed to air my views and opinions in a clear manner, as the mods here have thankfully allowed. It is a lose-lose situation on a predominantly lubavich website, and I have never posted on one of those.
Really? For the sake of a no brainer, I’m sure you hold your Rav to be on a higher level in Avodas Hashem than Achav. (Yes the temptation then was greater but im saying on an Avodas Hashem level.)
I was waiting for you to nitpick my words
Who says I’m talking about avodas hashem?
You really are comparing apples to oranges. Before you were saying the Baal hatanya was greater than the Avos (who were beinonim) and now you bring Achav?
(And btw it’s possible that if the Baal hatanya was in achav’s generation he would be worse than Achav)
“they, as an unfortunate side outcome, have much worse tznius issues than we have. But I think I’ll leave it at that unless you want me to hint further.”
Of course we want you to hint more. If you leave it open-ended like that we’ll assume all kinds of crazy stuff.
I don’t really want to get into the tznius discussion as I’ve never really seen the problem most people are talking about. Real, frum Lubavitch women seem to keep the same standards as Litvish women. As far as I can tell, the only way people are claiming they’re worse is by including “Modern Lubavitchers” in the calculation. I’ve never found it fair to exclude Ashkenazi MO from the Litvish world, but then include MO Chabad when comparing. I’m sure there’s a name for that logical fallacy in debating, but I can’t think of it.
I know for a fact that some Chabad schools have maximum sheitel length requirements for the mothers of potential students. They also require strict phone filters. So, parts of their community are trying to combat these issues. The point is not whether or not they are successful, the point is that these problems are not b’shittah. They are most likely an unfortunate side-effect of being a kiruv movement.
To be clear, though, I’m not backing down from what I said earlier. The other things we discussed are problematic things Chabad believes that are for sure b’shittah.
No. Just a different standard.
A lower standard.
In fact I could definitely argue that because the chassidishe communities have taken tznius to an unprecedented extreme (which I respect as their Daas Torah due to the shocking immodesty prevalent today), they, as an unfortunate side outcome, have much worse tznius issues than we have.
That’s a baseless, and frankly disgusting comment. Pure motzi Shem ra.
“You: “In other words all the Gedolim are in the same category as the tens of Talmidei Chachamim in Lubavich who “we respect but are not overly impressed with”. Got it”
I said for the most part. And yes this is what I see if them on heimishe news sites such as ywn. Lots of photo ops of tishen and weddings, stories about their learning and hashkafic perspectives etc. ”
how do the mods let this through!?!?!?As far as I can tell, the only way people are claiming they’re worse is by including “Modern Lubavitchers” in the calculation. I’ve never found it fair to exclude Ashkenazi MO from the Litvish world
There isn’t a clear demarcation between more or less modern yeshivish. Sure, the whole from world suffers from worsening adherence to proper dress and interaction of the genders, but it’s really quite noticeable in Chabad. At least in the tristate area, and I believe elsewhere as well.
Try to apply the standard to any other chassidus and you’ll see where your complaint about the fallacy of the tznius argument regarding Chabad fails.
Have you ever seen Belz, Satmar, Get, etc. groups behaving and dressing as you see in Chabad?
I’m very disappointed that you’re doubling down on your untrue accusations.
I also know people in Chassidish communities. And Chabad communities. So what?
You are denying a Torah truism:
בכל מקום שאתה מוצא גדר ערוה, שם אתה מוצא קדושה
(Rashi on parshas Kedoshim).CS: “Neville to Assange your concerns”
A bit of unexpected and unwitting comedy to lighten the dark winter days and nights! Assange is the guy who is holed-up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London because of wikileaks. I think you mean assuage.
“Try to apply the standard to any other chassidus and you’ll see where your complaint about the fallacy of the tznius argument regarding Chabad fails.
Have you ever seen Belz, Satmar, Get, etc. groups behaving and dressing as you see in Chabad?”
For sure the other Chassidim are more tznius. Not even CS denied that. I, however, am not Chassidishe (I thought you weren’t either), so I don’t think it would really be fair to talk about Chabad’s tznius standards when we have the same problem.
Have you ever seen groups of girls in an “Orthodox” community like Cedarhurst or Riverdale? You would think you were in Las Vegas, and they aren’t Chabadniks. The problem seems much worse in towns that are MO strongholds than in Chabad areas. It’s not uncommon to see girls dressed in a way that are beneath goyish, public school standards (truthfully, I’m not exaggerating). I guess these are all just personal observations.
CS: “I can take one example: your first one. “Worst tznius in Chassidic world.”
No. Just a different standard. The Rebbe asked us to dress like beis Yaakov. And I would say that the chassidishe women do dress that way.”
Then why do quasi-official chabad websites bemoan the lack of tznius in Crown Heights? The entire chareidi Jewish New York knows that the tznius in Crown Heights is worse than in any other chareidi area.
Then there are the other two problems that I pointed out that are connected to the tznius issue: unfiltered internet and the mixing of genders. Yes, there are some valiant people who try to fight the prevailing situation within Lubavich in these areas, but they are few and far between. It is a huge problem, and it is undoubtedly caused by “the rebbe wanted us to be open and mix with the outside world”. I think that that was one of his biggest mistakes.
CS, everybody who has ever discussed this matter with a lubavicher has heard the hints that you make – “You wouldn’t believe some of the disgusting things that go on in Satmar/Pupa/Belz/whatever, but I’d rather not talk about it!” – and some of the stories may be true Rachmana litzlan. There is a yetzer hara everywhere and human beings fall occasionally. But to cite that as an excuse for short skirts etc in Lubavihc all over the world. (I have already written that I have been in chabad houses in five continents and dealt closely with chabad chassidim in many countries.) If the Torah says be tzniusdik then you have to be tzniusdik regardless of what someone else does. Unfortunately, Lubavich worldwide is MUCH worse in this area than all other chareidi groups.
Furthermore, I believe there is a very simple truth which you are denying. Less tznius and more mixing of genders ALWAYS means more aveiros. If the stories you hint to about other more tzniusdik groups of chassidim are true, then there must be a greater number of similar stories in Lubavich.
CS: “So the simple pshat reading of the posuk is that lama nigara isn’t a request as in why not, it is a protest and demand for the right to fulfil it because they don’t want to miss out for doing something good! In that case, Moshe rabbeinu says, let me see whet Hashem says. Hashem also didn’t respond with an explanation as to why they are going to miss out. Rather He gave them a new mitzvah and opportunity so they shouldn’t miss out. I hope this clarifies in case it wasn’t clear enough before.”
Clearly wrong. There is no interest. A question as to why they should miss out when they were being osek in a mitzvah and became tamei.
I see that you will not concede this one, and I believe that all the non-lubavich regular poster here agree with me, so I’m willing to let it drop. If I’m wrong about the other posters, will they please let me know.
Now, you have totally ignored a different question; Do you believe that the Rashba was greater than your rebbe, based on your quote (slightly misquoted but pretty close) about “im rishonim kemalachim…”?
Please reply.
Hi DY, nice to see you.
Anyone seriously debating whether chabad’s tznius standards are on the level of chassidish/Litvish BY standards is out to lunch.
warning bells ….”More likely”….as in the Rashba was “more likely” bigger in spiritual stature than the chabadsker rebbe. You can’t make this stuff up.
It seems this thread has come to a crashing and crushing close. There are no more ambiguities (except for whether CS thinks the rebbe is moshiach), and the lubavitch approach to the rest of us is pretty clear at this point. Also clear, is why they b”H won’t make any headway with the rest of us; when your doctrine hinges on beliefs and klehring whether the avos and Moshe Rabbeinu were beinonim or tzadikim of the Tanya, and comparing them to the rebbe who was ostensibly the only tzaddik of the tanya to have lived since, well, the tanya, you’re not gonna get very far. And thank G-d for that.
CS: ““Other Chassidus’ may wish that to be true, may even wish to believe it to be true however they Won’t actually believe it”
And to me that is just another tribute to our Rebbe. The fact that we actually believe it”
Wow! That is so childish! Because your level of belief in your rebbe is greater than someone else’s belief in his rebbe it is a tribute to your rebbe?!
“My tatty is greater than your tatty because I believe my tatty can fly and you don’t believe your tatty can fly!”
Using your logic, it is a tribute to Oso Ha’ish that his followers think he is the son of G-d c”v.
What you believe doesn’t about your rebbe doesn’t indicate his level of greatness but it may indicate your level of brainwashing.
Sorry, CS, that I reposted my question about the Rashba after you had already addressed it but before it appeared on my screen.
Here is what you wrote: “They were definitely both tzaddikim. More likely the Rashba was greater as he lived in a much earlier generation.”
More likely!!! What happened to your quote of “im harishonim…”? Are there exceptions? It seems as if you think there may be. If that’s the case you shouldn’t have quoted it as an inviolable rule.
I said no such thing.
Really?
And? He was holding by the avoda of tzaddikim. He wrote the Tanya, also known as the Sefer shel beinonim, and also wrote a Sefer shel tzaddikim which unfortunately was burnt. Point being he could only write the Sefer if he was holding there…
Yes so he was a tzadik who stood up to his yetzer hara even in extremely difficult circumstances (beinoni),
And Avraham didn’t have nisyonos? So that made h a beinoni (according to your definition)
Is there someone according to your definition of צדיק and if so name one because everyone has נסיונות even משה רבינו
CS, It says איזהו גבור הכובש את יצרו you don’t kill the yetzer horah because you lose your purpose to live. You live to improve yourself which requires resistance.
“Unfortunately, Lubavich worldwide is MUCH worse in this area than all other chareidi groups.”
You aren’t looking at the Chareidi faction of Lubavitch if you’re talking about women wearing miniskirts.
There are a lot more non-Chassidishe girls out there keeping no standard of tznius whatsoever who are part of the MO community. You’re comparing strictly the Chareidi part of the American Orthodox population to the entire Lubavitch population including MO Lubavitchers. It’s not apples to apples.
You could say, “well why don’t they make the line more clear where frum ends and MO begins in their community like we do?” But, clearly they are trying. You mentioned the publications criticizing the tznius problem in their neighborhood, and I mentioned the schools enforcing it.
I don’t know. I think Chabad has enough issues that we don’t need to make up new ones with selective observations.
CS: Sorry but there is no official Chasidic standard of wearing all black or shades thereof for women I’m aware of in the US. Are there Rebbitzins or very Frum families that do so? Likely, but ias a personal/familial chumra, not something requested or expected of the masses. Colors that are not ostentatious are okay, no red, hot pink, neon etc. If you have Chasidish friends out of Crown Heights/ Lubavitch I’m sure you’d know this.
And as was mentioned before, the Rebbe did push candle lighting for girls that were not Lubavitch. So I ask, if the world needed more kedusha, which IIRC was the reason given for this, why not increase tznius? Which is what most of the Jewish world has tried, but even they are unfortunately not as successful as they should be. Levels of tznius are lower almost everywhere than just a generation ago. (The only extremes I see are in Lev Tahor…). So I really don’t see which circles you are referring to. And if some men are failing, generally speaking it’s on them, so don’t blame the women for their lack of yiras Shamayim.
What I find interesting in Crown Heights is to see groups of girls with vastly different ways of dress grouped together. While it’s nice to see everyone being accepted, there’s no way this doesn’t adversely affect the “frummer” ones. I realize this may be part and parcel of the Chabad shitta in kiruv, but I don’t know how relatively young girls can withstand these nisyonos.
CS, To understand the Baal Hatanya in 27 mentioned above, look at the Sefer Habris by Rabbi Pinchas Eliyahu written in around 1800 who explains that the once yetzer horah’s power is exhausted. in order for tzadikim to advance a new level of neshomo is given to them. There is a total of 25 levels which can be acquired 5 levels within 5 levels.
נפש, רוח, נשמה, חיה and יחידה such as נפש שבנפש to יחידה שביחידה.Neville, you have a point as I don’t really know how the MO Litvishe girls dress so I shouldn’t have made a blanket statement that seems to include them.
But in regards to chassidishe girls from chareidi families, there is no question that Lubavich girls dress with the least tznius.
And to clarify, there are two areas of tznius: one is clothing that covers all areas that need to be closed, and the other is clothing that does not attract overdue attention even when covering those areas. The fact is that unfortunately lubavich is the worst in both those areas.
Of course there are some very tzniusdik lubavich women, but overall the level of tznius in Crown Heights and in other lubavich enclaves is very depressing.
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