The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

“Ok. I guess I am sorry for you, because you may be guilty of disrespecting a Talmid chochom (by the way you write about him as a result of your assumptions.) which is a problem halachically to put it lightly. No, I am not trying to attack you, I really just feel bad for you.”

This is EXACTLY what we have been saying to you that you label Sinas Chinam. Substitute the word Torah for Talmud chacham. Do you finally understand it know that it is your own thought? You keep calling it bashing when it is just exactly exactly what you just wrote.

After he showed him what a beinoni of Tanya is (someone who has a yetzer hara but never does any aveira, big or small,

I admit unfamiliarity with mesillas yesharim but based on what I do know, what you describe is the norm. There are the born tzaddikim who are the rare exception (such as Moshe rabbeinu who was born mohul, which is apparently can be a sign of such),

Moshe rabbeinu worked on himself to make himself a tzaddik (maaseh where they brought someone to draw him)

Additionally nowhere does it term benonim in Gemara like you, Benoni could be either someone that is “50/50” or someone that has at least one mitzvah

We say Yosef is Yosef hatzadik because he was עומד בנסוין yet there are four people who didn’t sin and only died “because of the נחש”

And I highly doubt the בעל התניא thought he was a בינוני

Ha ha coffee addict, don’t be so naive. When three people post and two are graciously thanked it is rarely for the purpose of actually thanking them.
🤭

CS I agree with Neville, please don’t respond to my post. The fact that you have these stories circulating compounded by the fact that you don’t realize how derogatory it is speaks for itself. this is what you’ve been taught, the way others are spoken about among yourselves to the point that you didn’t even realize how derogatory it was and how inappropriate it was to repeat in this forum. You can try to ‘get out of it’ but it won’t change the facts you yourself just presented regarding where the story circulated, And the message your schools give their young about other peoples Rebbes.

Chabadshlucha,

“I remember the time in high school when we heard how that day’s story in Yeshiva was that a visiting Rebbe had asked a Lubavitcher bochur a question. The bochur reverently listened, and then registered shock, before he recovered and answered.

The teacher was curious what had transpired, so he asked the bochur what had happened. The bochur said the Rebbe had asked him what the good tourist sights were. He hadn’t expected such a question from a Rebbe.”

You forgot the end of the story. As the rebbe left, his attendant asked him, “why did you ask that bochur about tourist sites when you’re planning to spend the day in the beis medrash?” The rebbe replied, “nu, it’s a mitzva to love every Jew, so I talked to him about his own interests!”

It comes down to this:

Once a person has chosen to believe that a certain person is a Tzadik who has no Yetzer HaRah and any of his statements are a direct expression of Divine Will no further discussion (on any matter pertaining to the Tzadik or his teachings) is possible. The strength of such a belief is precisely in the fact that no positive evidence is presented for it and therefore there is nothing to refute. Instead the focus is on wonderous and miraculous stories about the Tzadik. Combine with a personal investment of time and resources and strong social proof and you have the makings of very strong faith which becomes self reinforcing. Make no mistake about it, this formula works.

Me to CS: “Me labeling what CS wrote as apikorsus had nothing whatsoever to do with the definition of tzaddikim. It was because she said that there aren’t any leaders or tzaddikim in the generation of a high caliber.”

False. I said ““There is a general lack of the kind of leadership and tzaddikim of yore”

And that’s what I consider apikorsus.

“its easier for me to take in a respectfully worded post and respond likewise when the post is similarly worded”
And for me its much easier to be redpectful when someone hasnt just spoken negatively about rebbeim as if it was a cute little maaseh. You ask for respect as if the su ject was coffee and cookies. You cant keep complaining that its disrrspectful to tell you you are speaking disparagingly about our rebbe or torah. Especially when you wont admit to it or apologize for it

“OK so who’s skirting now?”

Okay, you may respond on the condition that you either a) apologize to belittling our Rebbeim in a way that isn’t a loaded apology like “I’m sorry you misunderstood what I said,” or b) answer whether or not you believe the Rebbe is moshiach, which is what you’ve been skirting all along.
Otherwise, the answer is still you; you’re still the one skirting.

I can’t speak for everyone, but I personally have not disparaged your Rebbe here. Criticizing things his followers do is not the same thing as criticizing him. His sichos on chumash are not something a random bum off the street could accomplish. We know, by virtue of the fact that you’re a Lubavitcher, that you hold him higher than his contemporaries. If I made an account on a popular Chabad forum for the purpose of “explaining” to everyone how the Litvish gedolim are actually superior and how Chabadniks are actually “misunderstanding” everything we say about them, would you think of me as a good person? Because that’s exactly what you’re doing here.

As for this tourist attraction story, you never named the rabbi in the story so how are we supposed to compare him to Rav Shteinman? I have heard personal stories about Rav Shteinman making similar comments to people in order to make them feel more comfortable. In fact, I think I’ve even heard Lubavitchers tell stories about the Rebbe speaking of mundane subjects with followers to show that he can relate to them. The only possible take-away you wanted from that story was to imply that the rabbi was inferior to Lubavitchers. Why do you still think we don’t see through these things? Or, at this point, have you just pulled out the stops and decided to be an all-purpose troll account because you’re angry at us?

CS: “Regarding pesach Sheni I think we’ve both explained ourselves so we can just agree to disagree, which is fine.”

Nice to say that, but it’s not really fine when I give you the literal translation of the passuk, and you say you interpret it differently as a demand. Isn’t that what xians have done with the whole Torah? Please cite me a source to back it up other than the source I am disputing, which is either you or your rebbe.

But moving on for the time being to other things:
“the well known chazal “Im harishonim kmalachim anu kbnei adam, vim heim kbnei adam, anu kachamorim.””

But don’t Lubavich believe that their rebbe was the greatest person ever to live! (For the benefit of those out there who don’t know what goes on in Lubavich, I’m being serious.) How about an honest answer: do you think that, say, the Rashba was greater than the last Lubavicher rebbe?

Still not sure why y’all are having this conversation. I think it’s been established beyond a shadow of a doubt that indoctrination from youth, coupled with a subculture that allows that bubble to expand, means that CS cannot grasp what you are talking about, nor the degree to which she’s brainwashed. You know you’re not going to get her to say the rebbe’s not moshiach (because obviously, he is), nor will she admit that anyone was on a higher garga than her rebbe (which obviously, they were) so why keep pushing it. We all know that chabad is somewhere between its own subculture/cult and religion, so why would she sell out to another faith/branch? I also think it’s funny you guys are focusing on the smaller problems within chabad, and ignoring the whoppers like hiskashrus/davening to the (dead?) rebbe (maybe that’s a self-answering question), atzmuso in a guf, etc. Why keep giving her a platform to spout nonsense?

Why keep giving her a platform to spout nonsense?

For one it shows people that don’t know that much about chabad how it really is

“OK I can see where you base your assumption non political as I have heavily emphasised the miracles and ruach hakodesh aspect to show that the Rebbe was not a regular person/ Rav (or tzadik as per non lubavitch perlance). But I was writing that assuming we shared a certain common knowledge or ground which I now see is lacking. So I’ll back up.”

Ok, I’m game let’s hear

“The Rebbe from his childhood on, was not typical…”

1) How do you know
2) How was he less typical then say the Gaon of Vilna
3) Even if he really was super duper not typical why is that relevant? Shabbsai Tzvi wasn’t typical either. In fact not only his knowledge of nigla was impressive but even more so his knowledge of nistar. The way he prayed was said to be especially impressive.

“By the time he arrived in America in 1940, and the Frierdiker Rebbe sent chassidim to greet him at the port here was where he was holding, by the Frierdiker Rebbes description: “My son in law knows the entire shas with Tosfos, Rosh and Ran as well as all printed chassidishe seforim.”

This would be a accolade equally applicable to many of the Gedolim of pre war Europe until (and including) our current day.

“The Rebbes tremendous knowledge of Torah is evident by his Farbrengens, where he would sit for hours on end, quoting from kol HaTorah Jul by heart with no notes, a fact that greatly impressed Rabbi JB Soloveitchik zatzal.”

Same as above

“The chassidim got to know the Rebbe and see how he was careful with every detail in halacha as would of course be expected from such a tremendous gaon.”

Same as above

“Not just chassidim, people from all walks who met the Rebbe beforehand knew he was a very special young man and a tremendous gaon.”

Same as above

That all went without saying. Within lubavitch, it is impressive to be a tremendous gaon, but we’re not overly impressed if it’s something the average person could do, with the time and investment put into it. We have plenty of very learned people within lubavitch, Geonim (by today’s standard for sure) etc, not like the Rebbe of course, that’s highly unusual”

Still waiting for evidence of the highly unusual part

“We have tens of people like this within lubavitch. But we are not overly impressed with them, although we respect them greatly, because we know they are still regular people like me and you, just much farther along avoda wise”

I don’t agree. I think that If someone is a Talmid Chochom and “farther along avoda wise” that is the very reason to be impressed. The greater they are in Torah and the “farther they are in Avodah” the more impressive they are.

“And this is the respect I see paid by other chassidim and litvaks to their own Roshei Yeshivos Rabbanim Rebbe’s etc for the most part.”

In other words all the Gedolim are in the same category as the tens of Talmidei Chachamim in Lubavich who “we respect but are not overly impressed with”. Got it

“How do you know if someone is not normal?”

I don’t know if we can drill it down precisely. Those darn shrinks keep changing the definition. The DSM-5 standard has drawn some heavy criticism. But if we avoid the grey areas and stay within commonly accepted usage of the concept we should be ok. Let’s see how it goes 🙂

“Has reached a spiritual height that is out of your league but precisely because of that can help you in ways the “regular” Rabbanim etc can’t? When you see evidence that…they can sense and see things normal people can’t. They can read thoughts and see straight into ones soul. That’s what u mean by that proof.meaning its proof that the Rebbe is beyond our league.”

No, even if all of the above would be 100% verifiably true this would prove nothing at all. This is very important. In fact Rav Yaacov Hillel wrote “Faith and Folly” precisely to combat this misconception (among others). He wrote it at the behest of just about all the gedolim Sefardi, Litvish, Chassidish (see haskamos to his sefer).

“If I would tell you “Anochi omed bein Hashem uveineichem” and “I will provide all your Gashmius needs if you listen to My commands,” you would think I’m a narcissistic lunatic or apikorus. However knowing who Moshe Rabbeinu was, no one of course describes him that way. In fact, he wasn’t even boasting about himself, as the Torah testifies that he was the humblest of all time..with Moshe, it was simply Shechina midaberes mitoch grono shel Moshe, and the I and Me were in fact referring to Hashem and not Moshe as an individual.”

Right, we “know who Moshe Rabbeinu was” in this regard because the entire nation stood on Har Sinai and heard Hashem speak to Moshe Rabbeinu. That was a direct national experience, quite possibly the strongest category of evidence there is.

“Get my point?”

Unfortunately, I do.

“Basically, when your talking of someone acknowledged by many many Torah leaders, Rabbanim etc. as a Nassi Byisrael or similar terms”

No such thing. We have addressed that claim in 2 previous threads, no reason to rehash it here.

CS, I want to reiterate that nothing in my post is meant as an attack on you personally. I continue to have the utmost respect for you and appreciate your sincere effort in clarifying your position.

Neville- for a Tzadik you may be correct, but I thought the response was toward her claim that he was not only a Nassi hador, but accepted as such by many great rebbeim AND then the frightening comparison, to explain how he proclaimed himself Nassi hador, she gives an example of how Moshe Rabbeinu did so as well with no narcissistic intent!! If ever there was a machaa to be made!!! I just hope that people like Seckel hayashar are silently cringing

I didn’t see RSo address the Moshe Rabbeinu point. Are you sure you weren’t seeing Non Political’s post? That wasn’t visible when I was typing my previous post.

While I’m typing, I have to air one last grievance that’s been bothering me.
Chabadshlucha seems to have created an account on an obviously predominantly Litvish forum for the express purposes of propagandizing Chabad and arguing against all other shittas. With this in mind, I am sick of hearing “we know you’re intentions are good,” and “we know you don’t mean any disrespect.” Do you think we would lauded for good intentions if any of us did this on a Chabad site? Every person who ever does anything (including terrorists) think they’re doing it for good reasons.

The tone of these threads is radically different than other fight threads like the old Zionist fights. It’s not because she’s more respectful. It’s because she’s not truly arguing. She’s trying to educate and advertise essentially, as though all disagreements stem from us knowing less than her. Just look at the title of this thread if you don’t believe me. It has never been the purpose or use of the CR to redundantly advertise one sect. I’m quite sure we’ve had Lubavitch posters here for years, yet these threads suddenly got out of hand as the result of one person’s “good intentions.”

@SL

“I just hope that people like Seckel hayashar are silently cringing”

I don’t think they’re cringing. I think they”ll say Shmuel b’doro…Yiftach b’doro…ect.

.

The World is in a State of Geulah” Halvay it was at the end of Golus! Meanwhile there is fierce fighting in the Gaza area, riots in the West Bank, problems in Europe, fires on the West Coast, not to talk about political problems all over.
WHERE IS THE GEULAH?
Moshiach will come “b’hesech hadaas”. Let’s leave Bias Hamoshiach to Hashem, and we should concentrate on mizvos uma’asim tovim, AND NO MORE MACHLOKES AMONG DIFFERENT GROUPS!