The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

I mean that conceptually more than practically.

Halacha says it’s better to sleep in the sukkah, although there’s a heter not to.

Chassidus (supposedly) says it’s better not to sleep in the sukkah. It’s mamash backwards.

K-cup, many shuls have lions on poroches or even as staues on top of aron hakodesh. Lions are definitely an avoda zara and one is prohibited to daven towards such images and forms…I guess there is a heter, so that heter applies to Chabd too, no?

I just learned this גמרא in ראש השנה regarding צדיקים, בנונין, and רשעים that בנונים are people who are 50/50

How does the בעל התניא answer this? (Don’t tell me אביי because I can answer he is looking at himself as a בינוני)

“cheasidus DOES NOT SAY THAT ITS BETTER NOT TO SLEEP IN THE SUKKA< YOU ARE WRONG>”

So, Chabad Chassidus says it’s worse not to sleep in the sukkah? If we “lean the sichah” inside we will see that the Rebbe actually told everyone to follow the halachah and sleep in the sukkah, but 100% of Lubavitch randomly decided not to anyway?

Spare us. I know your response will be something to the tune of “it never explicitly says it’s ‘better’ to sleep in the house. It just says that it’s mutar not to sleep in the sukkah by the heter of the S”A. And, the sukkah is a holy place where you wouldn’t want to lose control of your body. Therefore, since it’s totally mutar to sleep in the house, why should one take the ‘risk’ of sleeping in the sukkah?”
In other words, it’s better not to sleep in the sukkah. You and us both can read what every other Lubavitcher has said here and has said to us in real life. You guys hold it’s better not to sleep in the sukkah, stop lying.

I want to retract my earlier post comparing not sleeping in a sukkah to not eating cholent. The comparison is faulty and not worthy of discussion. I was short of time and wanted to come up with an explanation quickly, and I did, but it was a totally inadequate and wrong explanation.

What I should have written is what Neville wrote: There is actually a substantial heter to not sleep in the sukkah that many non-Chabad people in northeast America rely upon. The problem is that Chabad will never say they are relying on this heter. They instead created their own logic and now refer to not sleeping in the sukkah as a chumrah. They institutionalized the heter to the point that those who could otherwise sleep in the sukkah just fine don’t.”

Not sure my posts went through as I was having computer troubles, so I’ll try to be short and summarise.

1. My earlier comparison of not sleeping in a sukkah and not eating cholent was stupid! Delete that. The correct reply was said by Neville that lubavich has turned the heter of not sleeping in a sukkah into a show of how great ovdei Hashem they are.

2. Knaidlach et al (I had mistakenly included BBO in this group), we’ve been through all this before. The sicha about not sleeping in a sukkah is based on warped lomdus which we don’t accept, and no amount of telling us what a great tzaddik your rebbe was will change that.

3. Some of us here, myself included, do not have a high opinion of your rebbe at all and we think that although he must have been charismatic and highly intelligent he was warped and he had delusions of Messianic grandeur. Don’t try telling us that there are hordes of people who “know” he was a tzaddik and that we are in the tiny minority, as we are not. We have virtually all of the Litvish/yeshivish world on our side, as well as a number of large chassidic groups.

Sorry if my earlier posts do go through and this is just a short rehash.

Welcome to me back.

@daasyochid. How could the kedushah of sukkah itself cause tza’ar which patturs from the mitzvah”. The mitzvah is teishvu.
“How do ALL chabad chassidim not sleep in the sukkah when the reality is that they are not mitztaer, they’re not mitztaer that they are not mitztaer, and even if they were, they could do that in the sukka”. Good question. I think a good test to see if they are mitztaer (at any level) is to offer to set up a nice bed in their sukkah in perfect weather and see if they would sleep there or opt to sleep in their house.

BBO, I see kum va’asei different to shev v’al taaseh. Maybe I’m wrong there, but it’s only relevant to that one post which I retracted.

And as to tefillin, if people wouldn’t wear tefillin because they don’t have a guf noki or because they can’t be meisiach daas, then not only would I not denigrate them but I would say they are doing what halachah says to do. Sleeping outside a sukkah if one is able to sleep in it is against halachah.

So is there no lubavicher rabbi who will publicly “pasken” that the lubavicher rebbe is bechezkas mashiach?

Of course there is NO lubavicher or other RABBI who will pasken that he is Moshiach. They all know that it is NOT SO. This canard they use for propaganda only.

Haha this is funny to watch I myself am in a lubavitch Mesivta in a big chassidish and litvish area and I meet with litvaks and and other chassidim and they always tell me how they love lubavitch, love the education system how it keeps bochurim involved on inyonei ruchni and everyone here is bashing us. Listen haters, lubavitch is taking over because people see the truth. We do litvaks and chassidim become lubavitch all the time but it’s never the opposite? People want truth and they don’t find it anywhere else.

meirs: “We [I assume he means Why] do litvaks and chassidim become lubavitch all the time but it’s never the opposite?”

Even assuming that what you say is true, it’s for the same reason that more people become non-religious than become religious. We live in an olam hasheker and, unlike the yeter horo, the truth rarely wins.

Funny, since CS said a few posts back, that without a p’sak from a Lubavitcher Rabbi, she won’t accept the Rebbe as Moshiach. Since the
Rebbe’s declaration, the world had a YERIDA, PILEI P’LAIM
To quote him, “We need Moshiach NOW!!!!”

Lechaim123, sorry that you were expecting a better answer, I can only answer what I believe to be the truth.

And I don’t know how you deduced that I was saying that there won’t be any frum people left. To be honest, there aren’t that many now either, compared to the Jewish world population and lehavdil the rest of the world.

@rso I did simple math: if “more people become non-religious than become religious.” Then eventually there will be no more religious ppl.

If truth doesnt win then it is not truth – we see this regarding מי סוטה, (depending on which opinion you hold of in the gemoroh)

Lchaim,

I’m not going to fault you for not reading all 40 pages of this thread but I addressed your question (I thought it was said in the past that it was אביי) that the Gemara says you should view yourself as a בנוני so that you do more mitzvos and not do aveiros

” I did simple math: if “more people become non-religious than become religious.” Then eventually there will be no more religious ppl.”
You left people being born out of the equation. The frum population can grow even with a greater number of OTD’s than BT’s as long as the birth-rate exceeds the differential. The proof is in the pudding.

RSo’s point (which I agree with) is that it shouldn’t be surprising that people would switch to a group that allows them to daven late, not sleep in the sukkah, drink excessively, and call themselves “chossids.” That’s not a proof of emes that’s just a proof of easiness.

And what your saying is that eventually there won’t be any frum ppl left?

Doesn’t sound theoretical.

“i was looking at it from a theoretical point, that according to you there is a possibility for religious people to die out.”
And I still contend that you didn’t understand his original statement. Even if the number of people freing out per year were 100 times the incoming baal teshuva rate, that does not necessarily mean the frum would be doomed to die out (even “in theory”). The rates of people entering and exiting by-choice has little to do with the growth rate of the charedi population.

” I would agree with you if that would be the only things that chabad does…”
We aren’t saying that, but those chumros are not as Chabad-unique as you probably think. There are plenty of groups that have Chabad’s chumros and then some (eg. virtually all other Chassidim) without the kulos. If it were just the awesomeness of Chabad’s observance drawing people in, why wouldn’t they go for a stricter chassidus?

“We’ve answered all the charges leveled against us, and as far as we’re concerned the lubavichers on the forum have not satisfactorily answered ours.”
I mentiond this too – ask someone you know your questions, not here.
I specificly didn’t continue with the simple answer that the Baal hatanya says (nothing deep you can open a gemora that the Baal hatanya refrences and see For yourself) because ppl here dont want answers they’re just looking to hate so if you have a question abt something ask someone you respect that learned.

NEXT
“And I still contend that you didn’t understand his original statement. Even if the number of people freing out per year were 100 times the incoming baal teshuva rate, that does not necessarily mean the frum would be doomed to die out (even “in theory”). ”
I still hold of the theory I said – without looking at the birth rate (because right now we prob. have a faster birth rate but that can always change and) if ppl frieing out is 100 time more then BT then eventually the frum would die out C”V

NEXT
As I said you found a few things that a few chabad ppl do (which some of those things have no source) and you based your opinion of the entire chabad based on them.

NEXt
Even other chassidic groups dont become litvaks (nothing to do with chabad) rather others are becoming chassidic.

Nothing personal no one is trying to make anyone chabad over here – every person has a purpose in life.

Lechaim,
I’m sure you mean well, but please stick to Pesochim. And if you learn the sugya of Sfeikos (at the beginning) well, you’ll get a head start when you begin Yore De’ah.

“I still hold of the theory I said – without looking at the birth rate”
That’s makes 0 sense. The majority of growth comes from the birth rate. Why on earth would you construct a theory that ignores it? OK, yes, is 0 Jews were being born then we would cease to exist. Congratulations, your theory holds up.

“As I said you found a few things that a few chabad ppl do”
The things referenced are categorically Chabad minhagim: not sleeping in the sukkah, eating before davening, davening late, etc. They are not neo-chassidishe shticks we’re complaining about; read the thread.

“Even other chassidic groups dont become litvaks (nothing to do with chabad) rather others are becoming chassidic.”
First of all, that has nothing to do with anything. Second of all, it’s not true at all. Have you never met an ex-chassid/heimishe person who sends their sons to Litvish yeshiva? Those families are quite possibly the majority of the frum NYC population. Not that I’m claiming them as a victory for team-Lita or something or rather. I would rather people stick to their mesoras. The point is, your statement is false.

“That’s makes 0 sense. The majority of growth comes from the birth rate. Why on earth would you construct a theory that ignores it? OK, yes, is 0 Jews were being born then we would cease to exist. Congratulations, your theory holds up”

What if birth rate changes and the frum slow down?
Your looking at it from a practical view and I’m looking at it from a theroletical point

Not that i think it will C”V I was just bringing up a point.

“Not sure why this thread was brought up in the first place if ppl here have no interest.”
It was started by a Lubavitcher who wanted to convince us of Lubavitch shittos. So, that’s why we’ve responded the way we have.

“What if birth rate changes and the frum slow down?”
RSo’s comment was that more people frei out than join the frum world. Your response was that this would mean, with mathematical certainty, that the frum world would vanish, not that it would vanish on the condition that people also stopped having babies. Theoretically, yes, the OTD rate could exceed the birth rate if numbers changed around. Are you claiming that’s how you interpreted RSo’s comment? I don’t think that’s how he meant it, but I could actually understand where you’re coming from if you thought he meant “more people leaving than coming in” included births in the “coming in” part.