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CS, you have a division within Chabad between the Moshichists and the non Moshichists.
Clearly the Rebbe, notwithstanding the amazing work he accomplished, left plenty of room for uncertainty.
Furthermore, I think it is safe to say that virtually all controversy surrounding Chabad surrounds the topic if mochiach.
If I were in Chabad, I would take this as a clear message to from my customers to free up the shelf space for better selling products.
To clarify the quote of the Chofetz Chaim – apparently it was in a Kol Korei issued in 1914 – he says that we should demand the geulah like a worker who demands his wages after completing his work properly. To demand Mashiach merely because we are in pain (or even because we claim to feel Hashem’s pain in the galus) without doing our utmost in Torah and Mitzvos is NOT what the Chofetz Chaim meant. Read the rest of his works and this will be very clear.
@RSo- Thanks. Taking things out of context is an effective way of spinning what people really said. Watch the media do it all time.
RSo – that was exactly my point regarding the diploma moshol.
If you mean me, CS, no need to respond to me.
Enjoy the chabad thingy. I watched for 10 minutes then got bored. But if i were a shliach it would be my highlight of the year i am sureRSO,
This is a classic example of ‘moving the goalposts’
At first, you were claiming that one can not demand anything from Hashem and it is a wrong thing to do.
Now, after being shown a source from one of the gedolei yisroel, you say it is fine to demand, but only in certain circumstances, (which parenthetically, you made up based on your understanding)I would love to have a honest discussion/debate. To do that some intellectual honesty is necessary. Is that a possibility?
kaiserW the goalposts haven’t moved. I’m the one who found the quote of the Chofetz Chaim and I’m telling you the way he said it from the text. You don’t have to like it but that’s the way it is.
Furthermore, this is nothing like what the Lubavicher rebbe said,when he said, and this time you can be the one to verify it from the sources, that there is no reason that Mashiach hasn’t come. The Chofetz Chaim said repeatedly that first we have to keep Mitzvos, stressing Shabbos, Taharas Hamishpacha, Kashrus etc.
Not that the L rebbe didn’t agree that those mitzvos have to be kept, but he did NOT make the demand for Mashiach dependent on their fulfillment.
CS: “… it goes to show its a Jewish thing, not just a lubavitch thing”.
Aha! So you finally admit that lubavich isn’t Jewish!
JUST JOKING!!!
CS: Your response to RSo’s Chofetz Chaim proof is telling. I think you guys are so used to the Chabad Rebbe being a daas yochid on everything that you don’t know how to react when someone brings a proof that might agree with him. This whole debate is on a shittah of the Chabad Rebbe, don’t you see how it doesn’t make sense to bring proofs from the Chabad Rebbe in such a debate? If you refuse to bring any source other than the Rebbe (probably because of the whole “bittul to the Rebbe” thing) then you can’t really expect to get anywhere debating people you will bring sources from anywhere. It’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight.
As far as the difference between what the Chofetz Chaim says and what the Rebbe says, it does kind of seem like semantics based on how it’s being represented here. To me, the biggest proof is in the pudding: whatever Chabad did differently in their approach to awaiting Moshiach caused Meshichism; our approach didn’t. No matter how much people avoiding bringing that in, that’s what this debate is really about.
CS, there is nothing wrong if something is only a Lubavich thing. As a lubavicher chasid you rightly consider the rebbe as a gadol and a source in his own right.
If other’s don’t accept that as good enough for them, that is their right.
Everyone gets to decide what gadol is right for them
Nobody gets to put the other’s gadol down.
This is not a schoolyard contest of my gadol is bigger than yours.CS, you know very well there has unfortunately been animus between various factions, Satmar vs Chabad, Satmar vs belz, to name the most well-known.
It is therefore regrettable but not unexpected that some chasidim, particularly from the Romanian/Hungarian crowd, will disrespect the rebbe of lubavitch.
I’m wondering, isn’t there a makor that eliyahu hanavi is supposed to announce who is moshiach (like Shmuel did with Dovid) and not that moshiach announces himself (whether outright or ברמיזה)
Well if that’s not a case of the pot calling the kettle black! wow. So when posters don’t accept the Rebbe’s own words as sources for his words it’s about denial, closemindedness, and animus. But when someone CLARIFIES a chofetz chiam that S/HE HIMSELF/Herself brought in to the discussion, it’s all of the sudden a case of distortion and cover up. RSo has probably been the most objective and informed of posters on this thread. Asking him/her to change because you don’t like what he has to say is disengenous.
CS: “Another double standard here is that you state The Rebbe isn’t a good enough source for you/ you want to see where the Rebbe bases it… But the chofetz chaim is a great source…
… And the same way its unthinkable to say the chofetz chaim isn’t good enough for me, it should be the same for the Rebbe.,…
Its insulting to display biases so openly and try to guise it as intellectual discussion.…applying double standards doesn’t give me much hope for fair learned discussion.”
After all these threads and all the debates you still don’t get it! MANY or us (certainly not all) do not accept that the Lubavicher rebbe is a valid leader of Klal Yisroel, and he is certainly not a leader of the caliber of the Chofetz Chaim.
I understand that you don’t agree with that, but that, to your probable great dismay, is what many of us believe. Therefore, it is not a matter of bias. It’s a matter of whom we consider gedolim and whom not.
Please answer the following truthfully: Do you believe that the opinions of Rav Shach, who was revered as the ultimate Gadol Hador by tens of thousands of bnei Torah, carry the same weight as the opinions of the Lubavicher rebbe? The truthful answer of any card-carrying lubavicher is a resounding “No!” Why not? Because you/they don’t consider him a real leader of Klal Yisroel despite what tens of thousands of others think.
Well, it’s the same here. Many people in this forum, and in the frum world at large (including ALL of those tens of thousands of Rav Shach believers) don’t consider the Lubachiver rebbe a real leader of Klal Yisroel. They – and yes, I am one of them – consider that despite his great knowledge and charisma, he was wrong in many of his views, a number of which are messing up his followers and bringing some to views and actions that are close to apikorsus R”L.
I have to say that I am absolutely astounded that a person of your intellectual caliber – you are clearly far from stupid – just doesn’t realize that we don’t believe what you do, and that therefore the “proofs”, sources and quotes that you keep supplying from your rebbe will not convince us.
CS: “rso is not a litvak he is a chossid(by his own admission at least on another thread)”
Gee! You have a better memory than me! While it’s true, I don’t remember mentioning it. And I don’t consider it an admission; I consider it a matter of pride 🙂
“So it really rankles when the Rebbe is a non source, but the Chofetz Chaim is kodesh kodoshim”
Sorry, but that’s the way I see it. The Chofetz Chaim was seen as Kodesh Kodashim by virtually all layers of his generation including the greatest and most famous chassidishe rebbes of his time. (I write virtually because I have heard more than once lubavitcers denigrating him, calling him a snag and the like. And let me stress, I have heard it DIRECTLY from lubavichers who are mashpi’im and high-ups in chabad mosdos, not from someone who just heard it from a lubaicher.) Your rebbe, on the other hand, was a controversial figure and many in the chassidic and litvishe worlds don’t see him as Kodesh, let alone Kodesh Kodashim.
One final point: I am not a Satmarer or Satmar inclined in any way. I find their kanno’us disturbing and often disgusting. My lack of awe for your rebbe does not stem from kanno’us.
CS: I think the most offensive thing about your claim that the Rebbe is the only/first rabbi to ever care about non-frum yidden is the fact that you probably actually believe it to be true.
You can claim over and over to respect our poskim, but when you say that someone should weigh the Rebbe’s opinion more than that of the Chofetz Chaim on account of the poster “not being a Litvak,” you aren’t doing yourself any favors. It’s like you’re saying “it’s sad when a fellow Chossid hates Chabad so much he looks for sources from the writings of ‘the enemy.'”
Despite all of these threads, the self-awareness problem remains the same. Chassidim learn the Mishnah Berurah, Litvaks often learn some Chassidishe meforshim like the Sfas Emes. Chabad is the ONLY group that completely separates itself from the rest of the frum world. It’s a shame Icemelter went to far with his comments and got some blocked (I’m sure it was necessary; I have good faith in the mods). A lot of what he was saying about what Lubavitchers say about other groups was 100% accurate. The genius of Chabad is how well they behave on the internet vs. real life. It allows people who haven’t had the personal experiences with Chabad to assume all of these anecdotes are just made up.
why is it that there are so many yidden from different circles becoming close to chabad or even joining chabad and learning chasidus chabad, but hardly if any chabad chasidim becoming satmar or belz etc. or joining the litvish circles?
To CS;- I have no aversion to Moshiach, I, and the rest of Klal Yisroel hope and await his coming every day! All I don’t condone is this hang-up of being OBSESSED with studying and being busy with it at the EXPENSE of studying other parts of the Torah. We have to study ALL OF TORAH for the sake of limud haTorah, of course, we are praying and hoping for the Geulah, but that is NOT the ultimate goal. The goal is limud ha Torah and kiyum hamizvos because HASHEM commanded us to do it!
As an objective observer of this argument between CS and several others, I am glad to see that everyone expressed their underlying beefs and feeling, and all this without vitriol, and in fact with respect.
This is a healthy thing, and I believe will lead to much healthier debate and discussion in all threads.
Let’s all take the gloves off and congratulate yourselves on putting your gripes out there in a respectful and articulate way.
And move on!
This has turned out to be the first thread that has given me a good feeling.
samthenelli
sure we have to learn all parts of torah and keep mitsvos. and this is what lubavitchers do like all frum yidden. walk in to any lubavitcher yeshiva and you will see for yourself that most of the day they learn gemara and shulchan aruch. but with learning chasidus you come to the understanding that the purpose of the whole creation of the world is that yidden through learning torah and doing mitsvos will bring the world to the state how it will be when mashiach arrives, how can you not be obsessed with mashiach especially when believing/knowing/feeling that we are very close to the geula???Chabadshlucha, back to the beginning of this thread:
I also believe that we are on the threshold of Geula – thats why we are back in Eretz Yisrael, and Baruch hashem, we are now zoche do be able to be mekayim a mitzvah that was long gone – techeiles.
If Chabad believes were in ikvisa demeshicha, why don;t they wear techeiles and make aliya?
(as an aside, Rabbi Yitzchok Ginsberg is the only Chabad rabbi that Im aware of who is consistent and does wear techeiles and insist on yishuv haaretz.)
We (the Galus yidden) are not in E Y because without our support, you wouldn’t be in Eretz Yisroel.
Why we don’t wear techeiles, not all halachic authorities agree on what is techeiles, and whether it is available today.“How the Geula and appearance of moshiach will actually unfold though, is not necessarily in that order.”
By the way, on the topic of “don’t misunderstand us,” we all know that when you guys talk about “not necessarily in that order” you’re hinting that you believe tichiyas hameisim can happen before moshiach is revealed, therefore allowing the dead to be candidates for moshiach, therefore allowing Meshichism to survive. These Meshichist winks that you think are subtle are not going over our heads as you might hope.
I can corroborate knaidlach’s claim the chabad spends most of the time learning gemara and halocha.
Though I am not chasidic or lubavitch, I went to a lubavich high school. We spent all morning learning the exact same stuff as the litvish school i had transfered from.
About 1/2 my classmates didn’t take “English” aka secular studies, and I guess they had some tanya classes in the afternoon (I never asked what they learned in the afternoon).
So if they did learn/obsess over geulah, it was at the time that the litvish boys were studying math and history.
I think people think that chabad is overly preoccupied with moshiach because this is a main talking point. Remember that chabad is outward-facing and their chosen tafkid is to push an agenda, and they have been very successful in kiruv.
Chabad is not interested in being mekarev the frum. In fact I believe CS is not here to push her agenda but she is here out if the love of sharing ideas about yiddishkeit, both chabad and others (not guessing, this she stated and i take it at face value).
As for the talking point of moshiach on billboards etc, this is what they believe, and it makes a compelling story intended i think to attract the lost sheep. The consequence of these campaigns seems to rub the non-chabad frum crowd the wrong way. Get over it (please).
samthenylic,
Are you saying that you are itching to make Aliyah but are holding yourself back in order to help the yidden in
EY?
Forgive me, but if you believe that, you are lying to yourself imho. Furthermore, you can help plenty in EY, and the rest of us can make the sacrifice and stay in chul.BTW, as an interesting aside, I heard with my own ears (on video) the lubavitcher Rebbe state that he stayed in chul for the benefit of those in chul, and that he would not even visit EY until he got a psuk that he would be permitted to return, which evidently he never got to his satisfaction.
For example, if that were the case, then it would be impossible to apply the anticipating moshiach every day
in practice, because if his coming is contingent on Eliyahu hanavi announcing it three days earlier, then he can’t come today as there was no announcement two days ago….Thanks for the reply I thought it was going to get lost.
It can be understood that the announcement that moshiach is coming can be any day,
And there are shittos that say eliyahu hanavi can announce moshiach on that day before he comes
We can be waiting for moshiach to come today or for the announcement to come today.
Makes little difference. If the announcement comes today that it is now T minus 3 days I guarantee everyone will be thrilled and there will be dancing in the streets (even the litvish will dance, won’t that be a sight 😉).
“and maybe the frum zionists in their own way”.
Why “in their own way”? You might not admit it to yourself, but that is condescending.
You can defend it all you want, but “in your their own way” , uttered by anyone in any circumstance, is always condescending.
I don’t take offense, but there is some gaavah in there. Think about it.
It’s up to us to set the stage and bring him
A great non Chabad even anti Chabad rabbi once put it
[ having bit of trouble with my typesetting]:Areinbrengen משיח קומט נישט מיר דארף
CS: “For example, if that were the case, then it would be impossible to apply the anticipating moshiach every day
in practice, because if his coming is contingent on Eliyahu hanavi announcing it three days earlier, then he can’t come today as there was no announcement two days ago….”This is another assumption based on (wilful?) mistranslations.
אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא does NOT mean that I expect him every day. It means I will wait for him every day. Imagine a 12 year-old boy waiting for his bar mitzvah. Every day he looks at the calendar and sees how long there still is to go, so every day he is eagerly waiting for his bar mitzvah, but he does NOT anticipate his bar mitzvah happening before he turns 13. So too with Mashiach. We (are expected to) wait eagerly for his coming every day, but we know that he may not come today.
I believe (I have searched and haven’t been able to find it, but I clearly remember seeing it somewhere) that the Lubavicher rebbe referred to as marah shchorah – morose and depressed – anyone who explained it the way I have explained it above. But I fully believe (אני מאמין באמונה שלימה 🙂 ) that my translation/explanation is the correct one notwithstanding the Lubavicher rebbe’s objections.
Similarly, לישעותך קוינו כל היום does not mean that we expect the yeshuah today. It means we hope for it. And by the way, that may not even be directly referring to the revelation of Mashiach, rather than to the beginning of the establishment of Malchus Beis David – את צמח דוד עבדך מהרה תצמיח.
There is thus no reason at all to suggest that when Chazal tell us that Eliyahu Hanavi will come three days before Mashiach that they did not mean and believe it fully.
RSo I like your take on waiting for moshiach every day.
Assuming that anyone actually “expects” moshiach to come “today” , and he does this every day, this would lead one to abandon his expectation because he has been proven wrong every day (though today is not over). Its like the kid who gets disappointed by his absentee dad that keeps breaking promises to spend time with him. Eventually he grows to distrust, resent, and RL even hate the dad.
Are you sure the take on this that you disagree with isn’t that every day is a candidate day, i.e. there is no reason to believe that today is not the day?
CS: I honestly don’t understand what you mean by “the Rav Shach excuse to hate”. The only reason I mentioned Rav Shach was to show how there can be someone many people – in this case tens of thousands of people – believe was a world leader yet you and your compatriots won’t accept him and you totally disparage him and his opinions. And my point was that in the same way you can’t expect others – and those tens of thousands of people – to accept what your rebbe says simply because you consider him a world leader.
I just reread everything that was written above about Rav Shach and I fail to see where I gave any excuse to hate. Just the right – not an excuse – not to believe someone is a gadol hador.
And I find your closing line of “Rav Shach was a Litvak just to remind you” irrelevant and very revealing.
Irrelevant because, as I wrote above, I was merely using Rav Shach and his followers (no, I am not one of them) as an example of how Reuven does not have to agree that Rav Ploni is a gadol/tzadik/etc just because Shimon says so. And the fact that Rav Shach was a Litvak therefore has nothing to do with it. I could have used Rav Kook as an example, or Rav Y D Soloveitchik, or the Satmarer Rov, but I used Rav Shach because I knew that, as a lubavicher, you definitely do not hold of him.
And VERY revealing because you always give the impression that you value all segments of Orthodox/Chareidi Jewry, yet here you basically told us all that Litvaks are not counted!
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