The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

So it looks like this thread has finally come to an end.

I find it telling that when they are forced into a corner, the lubavichers tend to fight back ad hominem and blame it all on jealousy or people just looking for the bad in lubavich. I think I did a pretty good job (humble, aren’t I?) in explaining why rather than us trying to find the bad with them, it’s them who force their views on us and expect us at the very minimum to take it lying down. And once again, no one deigned to comment.

I wish all participants in this thread the best, and I hope we all come to a better understanding of what Hashem wants from us. I just hope the lubavichers realize that the rest of the world holds that lubavich is a lot further from the truth than they can imagine.

And if anyone wants to continue to argue the points that we have brought, I’ll happily take the bait!

I left this thread when my purpose was accomplished – proving that many chabadniks have kefira beliefs in regards to the rebbe (see my many posts proving that.) Yet CS kept excusing them. If she’s willing to give an answer with sources (instead of “thats not what they mean”) I’ll reconsider.

Now, every time it rains I can just eat inside.

Yes, you can follow the Shulchan Aruch at last, also to sleep in the sukkah, and even to eat in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres! You’re perfectly welcome to be makpid on the water, though.

” and even to eat in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres!”

Lubavitchers actually do eat in the Sukkah on Smini Atzeres.

“So can’t imagine I’ve earned any credit, but I have been told that saving one Jew is saving a world so I’ll take it. 🙂”

You’re now a Platinum member* in the Gan Eden Frequent Flyer Club. You’ve earned exclusive lounge access, and pre boarding on ShamayimXpress™, a Star Alliance partner.
Also get 10% cash back at Aisle 9 and J2 Pizza.

*Terms and conditions apply. Not to be used in conjunction with any other offer from ShamayimXpress™ or it’s subsidiary Spirit Airlines. ShamayimXpress ™ reserves the right to revoke Platinum membership after examination of beliefs if we percieve them to be heretical. For a full list of heretical beliefs, see the past 38 pages of this thread.

“Not so excited about the pre-boarding though.”
Why not? After all, if the Tachlis is the Schar in Gan Eden, then the earlier you get it the better. Btw, nowhere did I say that you were eligible. It was an exclusive offer, to those who qualify.

SHY: ” And no need to be so makpid anymore on not even having a glass of water outside the Sukkah”

Sorry again, but that has nothing to do with lubavich. Seems that despite everything you still believe too much of the propaganda that you were force-fed.

After all, if the Tachlis is the Schar in Gan Eden

Who said that?

You’re making me very self conscious.

Tuck in your shirt

SHY: “After all, if the Tachlis is the Schar in Gan Eden”
coffeeaddict: “Who said that?”

Actually it is brought that that is indeed the tachlis. Schar mitzva mitzvah means that since Hashem wants us to receive schar (miteva Hatov leheitiv) we should be doing mitzvos with the intention of so to speak “enabling Him” to give us schar. Not so that we should enjoy the schar but that He should be “able” to give us schar, which is what He wants to do. See Amud Ha’avodah (R’ Boruch Kossover) 191a d”h Ben Azai. At least that’s where it is in the older edition that I have. Otzar Hachochmah has a newer edition put out by Bobov that has it on page nun hei.

It was also once shown to me in Sfas Emes – I think tonight is his yahrtzeit – but I don’t remember where. Perhaps someone can find it for me.

SHY: “Clearly you don’t know me. Even when I was a Lubavitcher, I was always tucked in.”

Clearly you were never a real lubaicher!

Actually it is brought that that is indeed the tachlis. Schar mitzva mitzvah means that since Hashem wants us to receive schar (miteva Hatov leheitiv) we should be doing mitzvos with the intention of so to speak “enabling Him” to give us schar

But the intention isn’t for the שכר

Frumkeit. Where being a wiseguy to the next guy passes for piety. Pick your style of hat and yamulke carefully, folks, it matters.

SHY, sad how with all the leitzonus you still can’t seriously answer any of our questions. Not just plain, “Why do you do such-and-such?” questions, but , “How can you claim/believe such-and-such and still think that some of your actions make you better than others?”

Found some time to answer.

“Chossid, no, I have never learned the sichah dealing with not sleeping in the sukkah, ”

Then that shows you are not interested in understanding, rather….. Any sincere person when he doesn’t understand a concept he goes and learns the einyen before he comes up with a opinion. Seriously.
Just because some concepts are new to you, it doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
Don’t get me wrong, you don’t necessarily need to agree, but you can’t just mock the shita. You could expect it as a shita but you don’t have to agree.

“I have learnt repeatedly the Rambam that so many lubavichers quote as “proof” that your rebbe was/is Mashiach, and I have listened to it being intentionally mistranslated and misexplained many, many, many times. ”

Ok I said before I’m not well versed in the concept of Moshiach, all I could say is that the Rebbe never tried proving who moshiach is from the rambam, it’s just some meshchistim, and CS, no one else on this group claimed it. And believing the Rebbe is moshiach is not at all kfirah. (Like we all came to the conclusion earlier).

“You go on the attack with me here but you still don’t give an iota of explanation as to how the Rambam’s criteria point anywhere near the lubavicher rebbe. I don’t mind you attacking me. ”

I never argued with you about moshiach so i don’t know what you are referring to “attacking you”.

“In fact when you attack me and you avoid addressing the issues, as you have done in this post of yours, it just proves to me that you don’t have what to answer. But you’re not alone. No lubavicher does.”

To my knowledge all your issues I responded to. But you kept quiet after I responded to you regarding if he Rebbe made up the concept of nossi hador, and Sheva mitzvos is “Stam mishigasim”. So maybe just keep your comment to yourself.
And no one answered (besids you on 2 questions, which I’m not satisfied with, just don’t have the time to type up pages of chassidus) on the topic of reason for mitzvos. Don’t worry you don’t have to I will fall asleep with and answer.

And I think username also responded to you. So I don’t know what you mean “no Lubavitcher does”.

I think the core problem is that you don’t even hold that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is a man deomar, so you just mock everything he says. And you just say this “It’s all boich sevoros built on air and baseless claims made by your rebbe.” First you have zero respect for a talmid chochom, not even to mention a tzadik, Bal ruach hakodesh, and mofsim.
I wonder why you hold of the people you make your shitas from, more then the Rebbe, which so much of klal Yisrael held of him, and must of chassidishe world agrees with, that he is (at least) a man deomar. Not even mentioning how many thousands of them learn chassidus chabad and come to chabad Farbrengens, and go to the Rebbes ohel, and some come full fledge Lubavitchers.

And you just disregard him. Maybe it’s just that you like yourself and whoever agrees with your shita you hold of, and whoever doesn’t fit with your shita, you just degrade him and say it’s “boich svoros”.

And know regarding what you say that no one outside Lubavitche agrees with.

Let say no one agrees.
I will say again, each kreis fallows their Rebbe or rov, even if no one else agrees with him. You don’t have to agree with the Rebbe, but you absolutely have no right to put him down. Does everyone hold of the heter of shaving your beard? Or just one man deomar said the heter and those who follow him shave, even though the whole chassidish world doesn’t agree with him.
Get it straight, not every shita Lubavitche has (and same with everyone else), has to have a haskomoh from the world.

“Have you been paying attention? How many times have I stated and repeated that I have nothing against different minhogim and hashkofos? What irks me and many others is the claim that lubavich minhogim and hashkofos are at the pinnacle of the Torah world, when so many of the justifications given for them are meaningless and at times outright lies.”

First you stated many times that you do have problems with our hashkofa, second if it doesn’t fit with the “Torah world”, why don’t you have a problem? And who is bechlal the “Torah world”, and who made up this concept?

I would like to say, you can’t convince a person (non Lubavitcher) that is not interested in understanding to start agreeing with Lubavitch if he is just clueless of who the Rebbe is, what Lubavitche is, what’s chabads hashkofa, to start believing everything that Chabad says. Just like you can’t convince a goiy the whole concept of mitzvos and yomim toivim, if he doesn’t know who Hashem is and the Torah. The same is with any shita of someone, you won’t agree with his shita unless you know that he is a talmid chochom, and man deomar. The same is with Lubavitch and the Rebbe, (I don’t know why in the world CS opened this thread, and what her agenda is, and half the things she says are just made up, and not what the Rebbe said). Anyone who is sincere, and wants to understand what Lubavitche and the Rebbe is, and only way to do it, is to learn what it is, learn chabad Torah, learn the Rebbes Torah.

And I personally think it will change your opinion. You won’t be the first one, thousands before you did it, and currently now thousands are learning the Rebbes Torah and chassidus chabad. And I can promise you, and you can ask any of them what they think of it.
(Btw half of Lubavitche are balei tshuava, and people that originally were from different kreisin.)

So before you do that you should be quiet.
Case closed.

You don’t need to respond. I think it’s worthless.
And waste of time. Until you want to open up a safer and learn the a subject and check the facts, before you come to conclusions.

Wow, Chossid, long post, but I read it all and am about to respond. I’m only pointing out how long it is in case I accidentally miss a question of yours that I should answer. If that happens it will only because it’s hard to keep track of everything. So here goes.

Re not having learnt the sicha about not sleeping in a sukkah: “Then that shows you are not interested in understanding, rather….. Any sincere person when he doesn’t understand a concept he goes and learns the einyen before he comes up with a opinion. Seriously.”
No. I was very interested, but before I even knew there was a sicha on the topic, when I was first mocked for sleeping in the sukkah (yes, it’s true), I was explained why one shouldn’t. And I have had it explained to me many times by many different lubavichers – some just wanting to justify their not sleeping in the sukkah, and others trying to convince me of the error of my ways – and I have also had it explained to me in this very forum, where it was discussed for a lenthy period of time. I have no need to learn the sicha, as I rely on lubavichers as to what it says.

” the Rebbe never tried proving who moshiach is from the rambam, it’s just some meshchistim, and CS, no one else on this group claimed it. And believing the Rebbe is moshiach is not at all kfirah.”
Maybe your rebbe didn’t try to prove from the Rambam who Mashiach is, but he certainly gave tacit approval to all those who did use the Rambam to “prove” that he was Mashiach. I think we have concluded that you are too young to remember pre-Gimmel Tammuz, but those of us who are old enough and, like myself, often mixed in lubavich circles (I still do, but to a far lesser extent), heard and saw lubavitch propaganda using the Rambam to prove that very point. To blame it on “some” meshichistim (and CS) is actually to blame their views on the rebbe himself, because although there were times when he voiced his disapproval, there were many times when he did not, and that led them to assuming that they were right. For example, what about that chassidishe woman who gave a tambourine with Yechi, or something like it, to the rebbe? Yes, the rebbe told her he would give it to Mashiach when he came, but the rebbe accepted it and didn’t tell her not to be stupid. It’s actions like this that led to Meshichism.
And to say that we all agree that it’s not kefira, is not so simple. For 2000 years the standard Jewish argument against you-know-who being the messiah is that he is dead. Now we say that that was just a made-up excuse. Furthermore, those who misuse the Rambam and the Gemoro in Sanhedrin to justify their right to claim that the rebbe is Mashiach, are distorting Chazal and a Rishonim. Does that not constitute apikorsus, which is a first cousin of kefira?

I can see that if I address every point in one post it will be far too long, so I’ll stop this post here and continue in a new post.

I just realized that I had completely omitted replying to the earlier longer post of Chossid. The one that the mods censored because of “Kavod haTorah”, so here goes. (Btw how does one get to be a mod and read all the censored stuff?)

“There is no difference between the chassidus thought by earlier Rebbeim and the Rebbe it’s all one hemshech and based on each other.”
It’s easy to say that, but for those of us who have seen what we believe are perversions of chabad, and of hashkofo, in the chassidus of the most recent rebbe, it’s impossible to believe that it’s all one hemshech and based on each other.

“For some reason you always focus on the people that don’t agree with Lubavitch, do you know that so many of your neighbors don’t think like you.
Day by day there is only more people learn chassidus chabad, not less”
Yes, a lot of my neighbors, don’t agree with me. But a lot do. And “day by day” there are more people who learn Rav Shach’s Torah and who hold of his shitos, who learn the Satmarer Rebbe’s Torah and hold of his shitos, who hold of Rav Kook’s Torah and hold of his shitos, yet lubavich does not believe in any of the above-quoted shitos.
And btw, “day by day” there are more and more people who, lehavdil infinite havodolos, are mechalel Shabbos and are kofrim. Numbers don’t mean anything if the numbers are based on a distorted view of the Torah. Sh”Tz had thousands and thousands of followers in an era where there were no electronic communicaions, but he was wrong and extremely dangerous.
To prove a shito as acceptable you have to prove that it is based on the Torah and be able to refute any objections to it based on the Torah.

“Can I ask you the question, how do you blame the problem of the litvish and chassidish have on the lack of tzius and daven after the zman, unfiltered internet??? Would you blame it on the Torah they learn all day???Just because the yeddin do aveiros, that is a rayeh that the Torah is wrong C’s”v? Would you say such?”
I’m not clear what you mean in that first sentence, but to address what I think you are saying later, no I wouldn’t blame it on the Torah they learn. But I would blame it on a movement, and the leader/s of a movement, who ignored breaches in the standards of old, and concentrated on other things. Just as, I believe, you would blame a lack of erlichkeit on a fictional group of people who concentrate on not eating chodosh but don’t care about making a chilul Hashem with shoddy business practices. (I am seriously not alluding to anyone here. I was just trying to come up with an example which I assume you would agree with.)

“And I just find it funny, when there is advertisement of kupas hoeir etc. That say that this godol or Rebbe will be davaning for only 150 names Al tenai that give a x amount of money. I don’t know if it’s the Rebbe or the gabboim, but it’s quite funny.”
I am not a fan of that either, but it seems obvious to me that they are doing it to help people in need. So it’s a lot like giving tzedoko at menas sheyichyeh bni. If the ends are worthy, and the means aren’t actually wrong, it’s ok. Do you remember that lubavich had a millionaire’s club whom the rebbe would address separately? Each person there had to commit to give a million dollars over a certain time frame. They were treated differently than the average chossid by your rebbe, but he obviously saw that it was necessary to raise the money for whatever purpose he used it for, and that justified the means.

“why does this pamphlet [Sichat Hashavua] bother you more than any other pamphlets and advertisements put on tables in shul”
It doesn’t. But it is just another example of how we are force-fed lubavich at every turn. If it was just Sichat Hashavua without all the other propaganda I wouldn’t care at all. Actually, there is one thing I don’t like about it, and that’s the way there’s a picture of your rebbe on each issue. None of the other pamphlets have pictures of their “gadol” on them. Why do you need this so much?

“I never heard a single Lubavitcher saying that [Shach yemach shmoi], I don’t where your hearing this from.”
I have heard it so many times that I have to conclude that you are not getting out enough in your own circles.

“and they are mechanech kids that way too, kids who don’t even know who Rav Shach was.”
Where do you even get such info from?”
From lubavicher kids. I have told you before that I have lubavicher family. I also have lubavicher neighbors, and lubavicher acquaintances.

(coninuation 2)
Chossid: “And who is bechlal the “Torah world”, and who made up this concept?”
The truth is that I had originally used the term “chareidim” but because I have seen lubavichers recoil at that term being used to describe them (and, to be honest, there are many lubavichers that I know that I would hesitate to call chareidim) i changed it to “the Torah world”.
So who are they? All chareidim who believe that to do things against halocho without a valid halocho source, is perverting the Torah.
You may note that in general I haven’t attacked lubavich for davening past zman tefilla, and this is because there have been gedolei olam of past generations who have sanctioned this if the davening was preceded by hours of proper preparation, and I believe that that’s where it started in lubavich as well. (I HAVE said that it is a problem in lubavich, but this is because I continue to see how it is abused by many people who treat davening with a minyan and zman tefilla as a joke.) But what I strongly object to is statements like, “We don’t believe in zman tefilla.” Yes, I have been told that on more than one occasion. That is a perversion of the Torah.

“So before you do that [i.e. learn the lubavicher rebbe’s chassidus] you should be quiet.
Case closed.”
Does that mean that I’m not allowed to argue? That is really powerful!
But just in case there are others who don’t considered the case against me closed, what about Rav Shach’s Torah. How many lubavichers learn Avi Ezri with the idea that they might understand his ways and shitos? Do you? (Oh! I forgot that I can’t address you because the case is closed.)
Futhermore, it’s not like I initiated an attack on, say, Satmar, that you can say to me that I should learn Al Hageulah V’al Hatemurah before I argue with him. I am arguing against lubavich who have been forcing their rebbe’s chassidus and shitos down my own throat for decades. If lubavichers tell me their shitos/hashkofos without me asking them to, and I argue with them, they then can’t turn around and tell me that before I argue with them I should learn their rebbe’s words inside. Don’t start and you won’t be attacked!

Although I don’t agree at all with the Meshichistim. And it might be extremely problematic. To say the least.
I just want to address one thing here. And this goes for BOTH. Lubavitchers and Non Lubavitchers.
This is a quote from Rabbi Avigdor Millers, question and answers:
Its online at: torasavigdor.org
Q:
Is there one main leader of Klal Yisroel today?
A:
That’s not for me to say. But what I can say is that we do have leaders today. Boruch Hashem, we have leaders.

But I must tell you that I disagree with the attitude of being mivatel, of putting down, someone else’s gadol. No; I disagree with that attitude. Gedolim can be here and Gedolim can be there, and we have to appreciate all of them. Your Gadol doesn’t have to be the only Gadol.

And even though there might be a machlokes, a disagreement, between them; yes, there may be a machlokes between them, but we should stay out of it. It’s fire! Worse than fire! We shouldn’t say a word. Not a word! So if Rav Shach, let’s say, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe may have sichsuchim, some arguments; I don’t know if they have, but if they have some sichsuchim, it’s none of our business. It’s the fire of Gehenim to open up your mouth. Keep your mouth closed. It’s a tragic mistake to mix in.

And the wisest way is to say nothing at all, and to have the greatest derech eretz the greatest respect, for all those people who are recognized. After all, the Lubavitcher Rebbi is recognized by many people. And Rav Shach is recognized by many people. So we should keep our mouths closed and recognize both of them. That’s the way we should follow.
TAPE # 901 (January 1993)

Do the right thing, you’re heart is definitely in the right place, but what happens when a person believes that someone has gone beyond the boundaries of the Torah? Do we then say, well, he has lots and lots of followers so we should stay out of the discussion?

If that were true how would anyone have known which side to take when Sh”Tz came on the scene (again, I’m not comparing, just illustrating a point)?

Despite the greatness of Rav Avigdor Miller z”l, I think DaasYochid put it very nicely.

coffeeaddict: “RAV Shach שליט״א”

Did you write that by mistake, or are you a closet Litvishe meshichist?

How do you think HKB”H felt about it?

CS, I believe Syag’s question went totally over your head… and that is part of the problem.