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I don’t find a point in going around in circles. Have you found a source that:
1. Emotional Tzaar isn’t Tzaar. and
2. Tzaar has to be that strong that he will not be able to do the act.The fact that you continue to ask these questions show that you continue to miss the point.
The answer to those two questions is: who cares? I’ll grant you both (although the first is debatable) but that doesn’t address the point.
Now please answer my questions:
1) Don’t you think there’s something wrong with a version of Yiddishkeit which causes one to be unable to do a mitzvah?
2) Why do all the Lubavichers not sleep in the succah when probably none of them actually feel this tza’ar?
username, I’m glad the gemara calls, and I wish I heeded its call more often than I do.
“Have you found a source that:
1. Emotional Tzaar isn’t Tzaar. and
2. Tzaar has to be that strong that he will not be able to do the act.”Sorry, but YOU have to find a source that tzaar that a person CAN fulfill the mitzva of sukkah is reason to exempt you from that very mitzva. It’s radical (which is my way of saying ridiculous in a nice fashion) and no one else in the world except for lubavich has ever even thought of it for thousands of years.
For some reason it seems every time a Lubavitch concept/issue was proved inappropriate the posters decide it’s sinam chinam and call us haters.
First of all, nothing was proven.
But regarding the issue of Sinas Chinam:
While I’m a Lubavitcher, I (as I said before) do hang around other circles, including the Litvish world. And the unfortunate truth is, that I know that however “normal” a Lubavitcher may be, there will be politics against us. For example, however normal and learned SHY may be, and however anti-meshichist he may be, and however many times he may say that he doesn’t believe that the Rebbe’s Moshiach, if he’ll go on Shlichus and start a Chabad house, learn classical Gemara and Shulchan Aruch with his mekurovim, and will send them to Yeshivas, he’ll still be an “outsider” to the Yeshivish world.
As an example, in my community there’s a Lubavitch shliach. He’s a Lamdan, Frum, and Anti Meshichist. He teaches his Baalei Battim real Torah (Gemara and Rishonim, Shulchan Aruch), and many of his Mekurovim are now fully Frum Jews, some Chabad and some Litvish. A Litvisher Yeshivish Rabbi moved into town, and stared going around town saying that he doesn’t teach “Real Torah”. That he’s ignorant. That he’s not Frum.
And I happen to know the Litvisher Rov and the Lubavitcher Shliach personally, and I can vouch 100% that the Lubavitcher is head and shoulders more Machmir than the Litvisher. But that doesn’t stop him from bad mouthing the Lubavitcher.
And this is not the only case I know like this. It happens many times in my community.
@Syag @Rso
And honestly, there’s no honest way someone could look at the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Sichos over all the years and say “This is someone who disregards Torah, who doesn’t care about Mitzvos, who cancels anything that inconveniences him”.
I already pointed out that the custom to not sleep in a Sukkah was from the Frierdickers time (at least). But that’s not the point. Saying that Lubavitch is about not learning Gemara, drinking, Davening late and not sleeping in a Sukkah is totally ignoring context. It’s like saying “The Gra? That person who broke all Minhagim he didn’t like while writing math books?” It’s true that he wrote a math book. It’s true that he did (or at least tried) to change a few old and respected customs (Duchening daily comes to mind). But he did write a lot of other things. He learned a ton of Torah and did Mitzvos BeHiddur. He was a holy Jew and a Tzaddik. And yes, he did a few controversial things. But you have to look in context.
The same thing was with Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky. His explanation for Yeshivas saying a Heicha Kedusha makes no sense[1] (to me). If a Bachur would tell me this as his own Sevara, I’d throw him out of Zal. But it doesn’t mean that I can be Mevazeh Reb Yaakov (chvsh). There’s context.
The same things here.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe spent 40 years, literally pushing for stronger Yiras Shamayim by both his Chassidim and by others. That (along with Rashi, Rambam, Gemara, and Chassidus shiurim) is pretty much the topic of all of his Farbrengens. Whether it’s beards, or banning college, or begging people to not send their children to secular studies (and read secular material altogether, even things like (kosher!) newspapers!), whether it’s talking about taking time Davening, meditating on Hashem’s greatness before Davening. Whether it’s the campaign for Chassidim to learn Halacha. Whether it’s among his Chassidim, whether it’s among the Jewish masses as a whole (how many hundreds or thousands of fully frum BT happened through the Mitzvah campaigns? How many non-Lubavitcher BTs happened through the Mitzvah campaigns?
And all you can say to this is “Oh Lubavitch? Those people who don’t sleep in a Sukkah?”
[1]. As I said before, there’s no earlier source that a Yeshiva isn’t Chayav in Chazaras Hashatz, and anyways, it’s a Tartei Desasrei: If Yeshivas aren’t Chayav in Chazaras Hashatz, they shouldn’t be allowed to do a Heicha Kedusha, since Heicha Kedusha’s a replacement of Chazaras Hashatz.
Why do all the Lubavichers not sleep in the succah when probably none of them actually feel this tza’ar?
Who says that we don’t?
Sorry, but YOU have to find a source that tzaar that a person CAN fulfill the mitzva of sukkah is reason to exempt you from that very mitzva.
If it’s cold and you can bring in enough blankets to make it warm, but it’s too much of a shlep, you can sleep inside.
That’s why I feel like I’m going around in circles.
Username – that story regarding the litvish rebbe is awful, but it is not standard and it just proves the guy is a jerk, not that there are politics. A jerk and a baal motzei shem ra..
Regarding the next post, i think you named me accidentally, i have had no participation in the sukka conversation.
And honestly, there’s no honest way someone could look at the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Sichos over all the years and say “This is someone who disregards Torah, who doesn’t care about Mitzvos, who cancels anything that inconveniences him”.
I don’t recall anyone claiming that he cancelled succah because it’s inconvenient, just that it’s krum.
Who says that we don’t?
Any Lubavicher I’ve asked.
Do you?
That’s why I feel like I’m going around in circles.
Because you’re not answering the questions!
You didn’t address my first question at all.
You avoided my second question by questioning the assumption it was based on without actually denying it.
You responded to RSo’s question without addressing his point. He asked how the p’tur can come from the mitzvah itself, and you answered with blankets.
If you don’t want to go in circles, answer the questions.
username, interesting posts, but I believe you’re missing our point.
No one that I recall on this forum is upset with the way you do things differently, What disturbs us, at least the way I understand it, is that lubavich has taken the “high road” even though in fact they are certainly lower in many areas. They have the best chassidim. They have the most yiras Shamayim. They have the only true way of chassidus. And, of course, they have Mashiach.
All of us think that none of the above is true. Most of your chassidim – and please don’t tell me that most don’t believe the rebbe is Mashiach – are looneys. The levels of yiras Shamayim in lubavich are R”L terrible (tznius is one obvious example that has been mentioned, but I can give more if necessary). There is absolutely no indication that the Bsh”t wanted limud chassidus (and of course chassidus chabad is for some reason the best) as the yesod of his “movement”. And there is NOTHING in the Rambam or anywhere else (except possibly in your own sources) that justify thinking the rebbe was/is Mashiach.
All this – aside from the concept of limud chassidus being the yesod of Toras Bsh”t – has been rehashed over and over again, and all you do is go around in circles and avoid addressing the issues. The exception being CS who comes up with direct “answers” that are usually unacceptable to anyone who has a bit of a background in learning.
Yet you defend a totally unwarranted and unjustifiable chauvinistic attitude.
I have gone on record saying how lubavich is fantastic when it comes to looking after the needs of frum and not-frum Yidden all over the world, but it’s when you start straying into hashkofo, and the statements and implications made by your rebbe, that you often veer very close to apikorsus.
Btw I note that you still have not addressed the Sefer Chassidim, as has no other lubavicher except for CS. Could you at least say something along the lines of, “I don’t know what to answer,” and leave it at that, rather that to hope it will just go away on its own. It won’t go away, just like the faulty sundial didn’t go away.
Ive been looking for this for a while and B”H finally found it. It might not be so relevant to the latest parts of the discussion but it will certainly show who the Rebbe thought he was. If any one needs it transalated I’ll do so but I figure that most people still following wont need it.
Btw it is taken directly from a Lubavitch cite called shturem. just copy and paste.סיפור בולט התרחש עם החסיד ר’ יעקב יהודה העכט ע”ה, באחד מחגי הפורים. הוא סיפר לרבי על שהתרחש בזמן נאום שנשאו שני בחורים בפני ילדים על מרדכי היהודי. “בימינו”, אמרו התמימים, “יש כמובן מרדכי היהודי – הרבי – שהוא מרדכי הצדיק של דורנו, של כל אחד ואחד”. אז – סיפר הרב העכט לרבי – שאל אחד הילדים “איפה הוא הרבי שלנו?”.
העיר על כך הרבי: הרי בשביל כך יש את התמונה על ה’טנקים’… והיו טענות אודות התמונות – הרי שזו התועלת מכך…
At another Purim Farbrengen the Rebbe pointed out that al pi halacha it is forbidden to put oneself into a position of vadai sakana even to save a whole klal from a future sakana, so Esther would not have been allowed, according to halacha, to go in to Achashveirosh. Luckily, however, Mordechai was not a misnaged……
TT,
Was that supposed to be complimentary to the Rebbe?it will certainly show who the Rebbe thought he was.
Is there a question?
“It’s like saying “The Gra? That person who broke all Minhagim he didn’t like while writing math books?” It’s true that he wrote a math book. It’s true that he did (or at least tried) to change a few old and respected customs (Duchening daily comes to mind).”
Again, this is just like when one of the Chabad posters brought up other Chassidishe groups with similar hanhagos. If you want to make a thread questioning why the minhag haGra people are OK with being mevatel old minhagim in several areas, you are free to do that. But, that is not this thread; this thread is about Chabad. The fact that it’s possible to have kashas on other groups doesn’t answer anyone’s questions on Chabad. It’s just a diversion.
On a side note, this was probably just an accident, but from the way you worded it, it sounded like you were saying there was a minhag to duchan daily and the Gra got rid of it. It’s the other way around; minhag Ashkenaz is to only duchan on yom tov, minhag haGra is to do so daily.
Although I think it’s just a pointless diversion to bring minhag haGra into this anyway, I do think it’s worth mentioning that it’s not all that comparable. The Gra’s changes, like not wrapping tefillin on chol hamoed, had precedents at least in the Sphardi mesora. The questionable Chabad practices being discussed had no basis in anything prior whatsoever. Chabad seems to have developed this unique view on mesoras like, “well every minhag has to have been made up by some guy at some point.” You should understand that that isn’t how anyone else views it at all.
Any Lubavicher I’ve asked.
Do you?
I think I’ve pointed this out before, but if I haven’t, I’ll say it now. If a person can sleep soundly in a Sukkah, he absolutely has a Chiyuv to sleep in a Sukkah. And I’m almost positive that the Rebbe said the same in that Sicha.
You responded to RSo’s question without addressing his point. He asked how the p’tur can come from the mitzvah itself
Another similar Sevarah is the clapping on Shabbos. How can you use Simchas Shabbos as a source to permit an Issur Derabanan on Shabbos? And you can ask rso’s question on him too, by the way. Did no one before the Baal Shem Tov have true Simchas Shabbos?
But let me ask you like this. A person has a mania that the Sukkah’s caving in on him. Would he be Chayav in Sukkah?
And as to your question of why we’d want to be lenient here, it’s a Kullah that brings to a Chumrah. Just like the early Chassidim weren’t makpid on Zman Tefilla to have better Kavanah, early Chassidim weren’t makpid on clapping on Shabbos in order to have a stronger Shabbos, so too early Chabad Chassidim (as well as some others) didn’t sleep in a Sukkah in order for them to have a stronger “feel” for a Sukkah. So while I wouldn’t start such a minhag, and the Rebbe wouldn’t start such a minhag, the Mitteler Rebbe (and since you asked me why I am lenient here, I, personally, think that this quote was said by the Mitteler Rebbe) was early enough to institute such customs.
The levels of yiras Shamayim in lubavich are R”L terrible (tznius is one obvious example that has been mentioned, but I can give more if necessary).
It depends which circles you hang out with.
There is absolutely no indication that the Bsh”t wanted limud chassidus (and of course chassidus chabad is for some reason the best) as the yesod of his “movement”.
Well, it’s true that Chassidus Chabad was a Chiddush of the Alter Rebbe (although I do vaguely remember that he tried to convince the Chevraya that Chabad was the true Derech of the Baal Shem Tov, they obviously didn’t accept it.).
But just because we have few Seforim from the Baal Shem Tov and the Maggid doesn’t say much. For example, in Chabad (not just Lubavitch), studying and meditating on “Toras Chabad” is and always was the primary method of becoming a Chossid. Yet, until Lubavitch came to America, the entire printed Chassidus would take up a small bookshelf. It was just that printing was expensive and the Rabbeim wanted Chassidim to work for their Chassidus. You can’t just go to a bookstore and buy a Maamer, you have to go to your friend, beg him for his priceless manuscripts, and make a handwritten copy for yourself. Or better yet, memorize it and internalize it.
But the Baal Shem Tov did spend time teaching Torah, and many of his Talmidim wrote Sifrei Chassidus (like Tzavaas Harivash, Keser Shem Tov, Toldos Yaakov Yosef, Ohr Torah from the Maggid). You think they wrote it to put on the bookshelf and never look at again?
But either way, even if it’s not an Ikkar of Chassidus, there’s definitely an Inyan to learn Pnimiyus Hatorah, as Reb Chaim Vital writes in the Hakdamah to the Shaar Hakdamos. So you don’t want to learn Sifrei Chabad? Learn Pnimiyus Hatorah of other Chassidus, or even non-Chassidic works of Pnimiyus Hatorah (Nefesh Hachayim).
Btw I note that you still have not addressed the Sefer Chassidim, as has no other lubavicher except for CS. Could you at least say something along the lines of, “I don’t know what to answer,” and leave it at that, rather that to hope it will just go away on its own. It won’t go away, just like the faulty sundial didn’t go away.
Was the Chofetz Chaim also involved in Kishuf? Was Reb Shachneh Zohn involved in Kishuf? And they weren’t the only ones who said that Moshiach is close.
So there are a few answers:
1. The simplest answer (and the one I feel most comfortable with) is that we are closer to Moshiach’s coming, as in, we’re 800 years closer. So in Rabbi Yehuda Hachassid’s time it was simply not true that Moshiach was almost here, so anyone (or any Malach) who said that must have been lying, while nowadays he is (though it depends on how you define “close”, in the grand scheme of the 2000 year exile, even the G-d Forbid 230 years until the year 6000 is close).
2. As Reb Yehoshua Mondshine wrote (back in 5753, before the Rebbe’s passing!):וכך מסופר בכתביו של הרה”ח ר’ יאשע שו”ב מבריסק (בעהמח”ס מנחת יוסף), בחלק שלא נתפרסם, כי לעת זקנתו ציוה מוהרמ”נ מטשערנאביל שלא לומר תחנון, וכך גם בנו מוהר”מ מטשערנאביל לעת זקנתו, ובנו המגיד מטריסק הסביר זאת כי נגלה להם אורו של משיח וסברו שהנה הנה משיח בא. וכך הי’ גם לעת זקנתו של המגיד מטריסק עצמו. והרבי מסלונים הסביר זאת שהם זיככו את חלק המשיח שבנשמתם וסברו שגם בעולם כולו משיח כבר נמצא. (ע”כ לפי כתבי ר”י הנ”ל).
And for the record, I did answer the sundial story previously.
Again, this is just like when one of the Chabad posters brought up other Chassidishe groups with similar hanhagos. If you want to make a thread questioning why the minhag haGra people are OK with being mevatel old minhagim in several areas, you are free to do that. But, that is not this thread; this thread is about Chabad. The fact that it’s possible to have kashas on other groups doesn’t answer anyone’s questions on Chabad. It’s just a diversion.
I think you missed my point. Let’s try again:
1. You heard of this Alter Rebbe? He’s the person who willy-nilly- changed the Nusach Hatefillah and changed Minhagei Shechita.
2. The Baal Shem Tov? You mean that person who got people to daven late and ignore Gemara and Halacha?You get what I’m trying to say?
On a side note, this was probably just an accident, but from the way you worded it, it sounded like you were saying there was a minhag to duchan daily and the Gra got rid of it. It’s the other way around; minhag Ashkenaz is to only duchan on yom tov, minhag haGra is to do so daily.
Yes, that’s what I meant.
Although I think it’s just a pointless diversion to bring minhag haGra into this anyway, I do think it’s worth mentioning that it’s not all that comparable. The Gra’s changes, like not wrapping tefillin on chol hamoed, had precedents at least in the Sphardi mesora.
You had a much better answer than that – the minhag that we don’t Duchen daily is from the Rishonim (it’s from the late Rishonim If I remember correctly, but Rishonim nonetheless). And Rishonim have the right to institute things against the Gemara which Achronim can’t. And the Gra was trying to bring the Minhag back in line with the simple reading of the Gemara.
But that wasn’t my point here.
The questionable Chabad practices being discussed had no basis in anything prior whatsoever. Chabad seems to have developed this unique view on mesoras like, “well every minhag has to have been made up by some guy at some point.” You should understand that that isn’t how anyone else views it at all.
My diversion attack was on the Heicha Kedusha, not on Duchening :), and there is no early source that Bnei Yeshivas should daven a Heicha Kedusha for Mincha. And there definitely is no source for Reb Yaakov’s claim that there is no Takanah Derabannan of Chazaras Hashatz in Yeshivas. And you know what, he’s still a respected Rov.
username: “I think I’ve pointed this out before, but if I haven’t, I’ll say it now. If a person can sleep soundly in a Sukkah, he absolutely has a Chiyuv to sleep in a Sukkah. And I’m almost positive that the Rebbe said the same in that Sicha.”
I honestly think you are wrong. And I have never heard of any lubavicher who sleeps in a sukkah, or who has even tried to to see if he will fall asleep.
Which leads me to ask why, according to you, lubavichers don’t go to bed in the sukkah and see if they can fall asleep. I assure you that someone who doesn’t have insomnia will fall asleep eventually.“Another similar Sevarah is the clapping on Shabbos. How can you use Simchas Shabbos as a source to permit an Issur Derabanan on Shabbos? And you can ask rso’s question on him too, by the way.”
That is not at all similar. (Disclosure: I don’t really know the extent of the issur of clapping on Shabbos, and I don’t know the heter for doing so by chassidim. So I’ll just take username’s explanation as is and deal with it as if it’s correct.) There is an issur to clap on Shabbos, and for some reason that was “ignored” to enhance the mitzvah of Shabbos. There is an issur to go to sleep outside the sukkah on Sukkos. Ignoring that issur does not enhance the mitzvah of sukkah, If anything it enhances one’s sleep outside the sukkah, which is an issur.
If it were a mitzvah to sleep during Sukkos, then you could say that sleeping outside the sukkah to enhance the mitzvah of sleeping is similar to clapping on Shabbos to enhance the Shabbos. But the mitzvah is sleeping IN the sukkah, and sleeping OUT of the sukkah can’t enhance that.
I think I’ve pointed this out before, but if I haven’t, I’ll say it now. If a person can sleep soundly in a Sukkah, he absolutely has a Chiyuv to sleep in a Sukkah. And I’m almost positive that the Rebbe said the same in that Sicha.
Not an answer to the question about whether or not l’maaseh you (or most Lubavichers) actually sleep in the sukkah.
Another similar Sevarah is the clapping on Shabbos.
Not similar in the slightest. One is a chiyuv aseh, one is a gezeira d’rabbonon (shema y’saken klei shir). Those who are meikil on clapping base it on a Tosafos that the gezeirah doesn’t apply when we don’t know how to be m’saken klei shir.
But let me ask you like this. A person has a mania that the Sukkah’s caving in on him. Would he be Chayav in Sukkah?
Why do I keep repeating that that’s not my question?
To answer that question, maybe he is pattur, but he needs a psychologist. If someone’s service of Hashem would make him require a psychologist, he’s doing something wrong. That makes for a much better analogy, and that’s my other question, still unanswered: how could legitimate avodas Hashem lead to not performing a mitzvah?
And as to your question of why we’d want to be lenient
That’s not my question. I get it that you’re not trying to find an excuse to be lazy.
early Chabad Chassidim (as well as some others) didn’t sleep in a Sukkah in order for them to have a stronger “feel” for a Sukkah.
Wait, no mitztaer? Stam making your own cheshbonos and not doing what the Ribono Shel Olam asked you to? What happened to the mitztaer excuse?
(and since you asked me why I am lenient here, I, personally, think that this quote was said by the Mitteler Rebbe)
So you are “lenient” (I assume that means you don’t sleep in the sukkah). And not because of mitztaer, but rather because of a twisted version of Yiddishkeit in which we’re free to do whatever makes us feel better even if it means not doing a mitzvah which is a chiyuv. That’s precisely the problem.
(In case you think I ch”v said something negative about the Mitteler Rebbe, let me clarify that I think it’s a bubba meisa).
username: ” the Mitteler Rebbe (and since you asked me why I am lenient here, I, personally, think that this quote was said by the Mitteler Rebbe) ”
Is the source from the writings of the Mitteler Rebbe, or is the earliest source the Rayatz quoting the Mitteler Rebbe? I believe it is the latter (although I may be wrong) and to me it makes a big difference.
(Disclosure: I don’t really know the extent of the issur of clapping on Shabbos, and I don’t know the heter for doing so by chassidim. So I’ll just take username’s explanation as is and deal with it as if it’s correct.)
It’s not. Tosafos says the gezeirah doesn’t apply when we don’t know how to fix instruments.
If it were a mitzvah to sleep during Sukkos, then you could say that sleeping outside the sukkah to enhance the mitzvah of sleeping is similar to clapping on Shabbos to enhance the Shabbos. But the mitzvah is sleeping IN the sukkah, and sleeping OUT of the sukkah can’t enhance that.
The mitzvah of eating in the sukkah is the same mitzvah as sleeping in the sukkah. תשבו. So your tayna isn’t a good one. The problem is you’re chayav to sleep in the sukkah, and you can’t make your own cheshbonos.
username: “But the Baal Shem Tov did spend time teaching Torah, and many of his Talmidim wrote Sifrei Chassidus (like Tzavaas Harivash, Keser Shem Tov, Toldos Yaakov Yosef, Ohr Torah from the Maggid). You think they wrote it to put on the bookshelf and never look at again?
But either way, even if it’s not an Ikkar of Chassidus, there’s definitely an Inyan to learn Pnimiyus Hatorah”My argument was not whether chassidus and nistar was taught by the Rebbes of other streams. It was that turning it into an ikkar of limud – e.g. the way lubavicher yeshivos have, I believe, a third of the weekday seder assigned to learning chassius, and two-thirds on Shabbos – was a relatively recent Lubavich innovation. Again, it doesn’t bother me that that’s what they do in lubavich. My complaint is that the setting aside of hours each day to learn chassidus has become retroactively the shitah of the BSh”T and therefore only lubavich are following his derech.
Please don’t tell me that that is not the case, because I have been on the receiving end of that “criticism” too many times to be mistaken.
I find it interesting that you write that the Baal Hatanya tried to convince the chevraya that his derech was the correct one but they would not be convinced. I have never heard that before, but even if it is true, surely you would agree that they didn’t disagree out of laziness, jealousy, spite or any other stupid reason. If they disagreed it is because they disagreed on principles based on their shittos hakdoshos, so our view is clearly no less holy than that of the Baal Hatanya.
username, you tried to resolve the issue I brought up from Sefer Chassidim by quoting the Chofetz Chaim and others.
Thanks for finally addressing the issue, but you missed the point. Sefer Chassidim is not talking about people PREDICTING that Mashiach is close based on various signs. He is talking about someone who PROPHESIES about Mashiach – he was a Rishon and he chose his words carefully – and, unlike the Chofetz Chaim, the lubavicher rebbe referred to it as prophesy.
So the quote you have from Chernobyl is also not relevant because it is not dealing with prophesy.
But again, thanks for finally addressing the issue. Seriously.
Btw, I knew of that quote of Chernobyl and Slonim, and I even mentioned it to a lubavicher many years ago in an attempt to explain your rebbe’s statements about Mashiach, but the person I was explaining it to rejected it out of hand: “The Rebbe said he is coming NOW, and that means he is!”
username: “And for the record, I did answer the sundial story previously.”
You indeed addressed it, but you didn’t say anything that made the story make any sense.
DY quoting my reply to username: “If it were a mitzvah to sleep during Sukkos, then you could say that sleeping outside the sukkah to enhance the mitzvah of sleeping is similar to clapping on Shabbos to enhance the Shabbos. But the mitzvah is sleeping IN the sukkah, and sleeping OUT of the sukkah can’t enhance that.”
DY in response to that: “The mitzvah of eating in the sukkah is the same mitzvah as sleeping in the sukkah. תשבו. So your tayna isn’t a good one.”
From your wording you seem to be disagreeing with my “tayna”, yet in the end it doesn’t seem so. Were you perhaps a little unclear in replying to a quote, or did I just get it wrong?
What happened to the replies and explanations that CS promised us?
From your wording you seem to be disagreeing with my “tayna”, yet in the end it doesn’t seem so. Were you perhaps a little unclear in replying to a quote, or did I just get it wrong?
Your tayna was that sleeping in the house doesn’t enhance the mitzvah of sleeping in the sukkah. If I understood username correctly, it somehow enhances the mitzvah of תשבו because he he appreciates the sukkah more when he eats there. So it is more analogous to his misunderstanding of the clapping issue than you gave him credit for.
Nevertheless, it still doesn’t make sense, and isn’t analogous to the clapping issue, which isn’t about being mechallel Shabbos (ch”v) to enhance Shabbos at all.
I actually thought it was, just not the way you intended.
Well, CS asked on motzei shabbos if it’s worth her time. Judging by the answers it looks like it isn’t. Therefore I have allotted that time to better things 🙂
I personally think the whole thread wasn’t worth anyone’s time but hey everyone is entitled to their own opinion
It seems to me that CS is just giving up because she realizes that we don’t accept her answers because they are more or less without a real Torah basis.
Her prerogative, of course.
Rso
“I had hoped that after Shabbos I would be able to enjoy being challenged by chossid’s questions, but nothing so far. Why?”
I’m still debating if I should bechlal start, and if it’s worth the time, and besides the point, that’s not what I’m here do to, to put down people. But you never know I might change my mind soon.And Neville ChaimBerlin
I do apologise if I accused someone, the reason why it came out like that, is because I don’t always remember exactly who said what, but I will be more careful with that in the future.chosid: “But you never know I might change my mind soon.”
Hoping you do!
Rso
To respond to the questions you asked earlier.
Have you ever learned the sicha of the Rebbe on sleeping in the sukkah? I’m sure if you’re a sincere person, before making conclusions you will learn the sicha good and if you have questions ask a Lubavitcher rov to explain it to you, and only then you can make conclusions.Regarding Moshiach and arizal
I only comment on stuff that I am well versed in, I usually only mention what the Rebbe said, or stuff that well respected rebbonim say. I don’t say my personal opinion, unless well versed in the topic (at least usually). So therefore I kept out of the topic of Moshiachs, because i just don’t know enough about the subject to have an opinion about it.
I think the same should be with you, especially before putting down someone or a community, and calling the names etc. you should learn the subject really well before hand. It’s basics of ahavas Yisrael, ahavas hatorah, ahavas Hashem.
Btw I could be wrong, maybe you did learn these subjects really well, but it surely doesn’t seem like it, and I’m saying this not only to you, it’s to everyone here, including Lubavitchers.And also you keep on saying that no one outside of Lubavitche agrees with such and such.
First of all many do, second it doesn’t make a difference if they agree or not. Every community, every kries has their rabbonim and rebbis that they follow, and no one has a problem with it. We find the same in Gemorah, באתרא דרב כהנא they did what he said…… (I forgot where the Gemorah is). Everyone follows thier תלמידי חכמים, רבנים, רבים etc. whether other community’s agree or not.Chossid, no, I have never learned the sichah dealing with not sleeping in the sukkah, but I have had it explained to me numerous times by lubavichers, and they all came up with the same explanation – the same one that has been given here – that being able to fall asleep is considered mitztaer and exempts you from sleeping. As I have said over and over, and so many others on this forum have said the same thing, that is a ridiculous sevoro with no source or precedent other than your rebbe. So since we dispute the entire sevoro, we do not accept that it makes sense merely because your rebbe said it does.
You wrote in regards to Mashiach (I don’t understand why you mentioned the Ari z”l as he has nothing to do with it): “I think the same should be with you, especially before putting down someone or a community, and calling the names etc. you should learn the subject really well before hand. It’s basics of ahavas Yisrael, ahavas hatorah, ahavas Hashem.
Btw I could be wrong, maybe you did learn these subjects really well, but it surely doesn’t seem like it”I have learnt repeatedly the Rambam that so many lubavichers quote as “proof” that your rebbe was/is Mashiach, and I have listened to it being intentionally mistranslated and misexplained many, many, many times. You go on the attack with me here but you still don’t give an iota of explanation as to how the Rambam’s criteria point anywhere near the lubavicher rebbe. I don’t mind you attacking me. In fact when you attack me and you avoid addressing the issues, as you have done in this post of yours, it just proves to me that you don’t have what to answer. But you’re not alone. No lubavicher does. It’s all boich sevoros built on air and baseless claims made by your rebbe.
And if you meant have I learned the sichos of the rebbe on the matter, then the answer is no. I haven’t and I don’t intend to, because whatever I have learnt or read in his name is a distortion or plain childish. (Surely you remember my reference earlier to the invented phrase of Beis Mashiach having the gematria of 770.) I’m not about to learn sichos said by someone with a self-serving agenda. (Sorry, but that’s the way I see it, and I’m not alone in this forum.)You continued: “And also you keep on saying that no one outside of Lubavitche agrees with such and such.
First of all many do”Now that is clearly a winning statement. Since I don’t know what you are referring to as “such and such” I can’t argue that your statement “many do” is incorrect. You win hands down!
But just in case let me name a number of points that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE in the chareidi world outside lubavich agrees with:
1. Your rebbe is Mashiach.
2. Your rebbe has the criteria cited in the Rambam that are required by Mashiach.
3. Because the gemoro that says “if he [Mashiach] is from the dead then it is Doniel” – which Rashi explains in two ways:, either, if Mashiach was someone who has already died then it was Doniel, or if Mashiach is to be compared to someone who has died the person to compare him to is Doniel – we can now claim that it is the lubavicher rebbe.
4. Being able to sleep in the sukkah can be consider mitztaer that exempts you from the sleeping in the sukkah.
5. There is a concept of Beis Mashiach (I’m not saying he won’t have a house, but the term is a very recent invention of your rebbe) and that its gematria is meaningful.
6. And (of course, you wouldn’t expect me to omit this one) the story with the sundial is true even though it makes no sense whatsoever.
Note: Aside from no. 6, I have heard every single one of the above being claimed repeatedly by too many lubavicher chassidim for anyone to tell me that these claims are not believed by more than a handful of people.“second it doesn’t make a difference if they agree or not. Every community, every kries has their rabbonim and rebbis that they follow, and no one has a problem with it”
Have you been paying attention? How many times have I stated and repeated that I have nothing against different minhogim and hashkofos? What irks me and many others is the claim that lubavich minhogim and hashkofos are at the pinnacle of the Torah world, when so many of the justifications given for them are meaningless and at times outright lies.
“And this is not the only case I know like this. It happens many times in my community.”
I would like to add: A Lubavitcher relative of mine is a chosheveh rov in a community which has in the shul many litvishe, chassidishe mispalilim, alot of chassidishe Rebbes and Rosh yeshivois which come to the community and daven there time to time. One time one chosheveh Roshe Yeshiva comes over to the rov after his speech on devrei Torah, dvar halochoh and hashfoh, and tells him “your not a real Lubavitcher”.
It seems to me personally, that the it’s the first time he heard a Lubavitcher speak, and was so impressed of his geoinois, so he had to justify all the loshen horoah he heard on Lubavitche, and tell him that he is not a real Lubavitcher, “because obviously Lubavitche is kerum……”
I’m cs”v not trying to put down the rosh Yeshiva, I actually know who he is, and I respect him for his Torah. He just was brought up in a community that black lashes Lubavitche, so the rovs speech took him by surprise, so he had to justify his up bringing.
It’s normal, very possible I would do the same, (whether it’s right or wrong).
But you get the idea.There is a lot more I could say especially since I live in a non Lubavitche community, and happen to daven in some litvishe yeshivois. But will stay quiet for now.
The point why I’m bringing this, is to respond to people that intend to put down Lubavitche.
For some reason there is a lot of loshen horoah going around bad mouthing Lubavitche, whatever it takes to put them down, they will deny anything which doesn’t fit with their mitzius, even to say that the Rebbe is not a tzadik, not a Bal ruach hakodesh, not a Bal moifis, not a talmid chochom, etc. even though thousands of people from chassidish to litvishe, to not frum, say straight out eidus publicly the miracles the Rebbe did for them personally, and conversations they had with the Rebbe that he was a boki in torah.
I don’t think that I’m better then the rest of the world, there is a lot of erlichech yeddin, talmidei chachomim, yerie shomayim, that are far better then me.
The only thing Lubavitche is saying is, that we have something to offer to the rest of the world, something that we were just lucky to get, which is chassidus/chassidus chabad, and we are here to gives to everyone else, which is moisf das be’eloikus, etc. gives you clarity on yeddishkeit, why hashem created the world, why did Hashem give us the torah, why did he pick neshomois Yisrael, from where we come from and to where we are heading to. So that you could true oyvid Hashem.
It’s this why we go and spread chassiddus, and go on shlichus, etc.
And that is why the Rebbe was welling to help anyone which came and ask for a brocha no matter for which background to come from, no matter of he was the Rebbes chossid or not he was here to help you, even though it took a lot of time, and took up a lot of nights sitting with people in yechidus, and guess what he didn’t charge a cent for it, on the contrary he gave you money to give to tzdakah.And also nowadays people come to the ohel and ask him for brochois. I was just there a few days ago, and I see chassidish, litvishe and non frum go to the ohel to ask the Rebbe for brochois, day and night.
So Lubavitche is here to help yeddin not to promotes them selves. Like the Rebbe said which ever way you can poiel another yid to do other mitzvah if it’s through mentioning his name or not, doesn’t make a difference, you should do it,
And besides that, the reason why the beis hamikdash was destroyed was for sinas chinom, and the same with talmedei Reb Akiva, they wore focusing on the bed in another person and not focusing on the good, lacking in ahavas Yisrael. And the way we build the beis hamikdash is through ahavas Yisrael.
If you think you are better then Lubavitche (it’s doesn’t bother me) then pick yourself up, don’t put someone else down.(This is all hypothetical e that your tayinos are true. Which I don’t agree with, but I’m try to get to the core of the problem.)
All these vibes that put down Lubavitche, cause individuals to think the same, and they grow up knowing in back of their heads that Lubavitche is terrible. I live in a non Lubavitche community and unfortunately I see too often. (I’m not accusing everyone for this, everyone individual can take what applies to himself.)
You can at least treat us the same as everyone else.
But people just like to put down Lubavitche till even a book comes out and websites bad mouthing Lubavitche.
We don’t deny your Roshe yeshivois or rabbeim (even though we might not agree), so why do you have the urge to deny our rabbeim???
Again If you’re really sincere and you have a question you can learn the subject and ask rabonim of Lubavitche for answers. Don’t just mock everything and come up with conclusions.
Sorry if this came out harsh in any way.
It’s not. Tosafos says the gezeirah doesn’t apply when we don’t know how to fix instruments.
The Rama (339 syif 3) has two opinions. The first (stam) says that we don’t protest those dancing because of Mutav Sheyihiyu Shogegim (meaning it’s Asur). The Second (Yesh Omrim) says that “it’s all Mutar” because of Tosfos’ reason (we’re not Baki in making kli shir), and “it could be the reason people are lenient”. So according to Kalei Hapsak, the Halacha would be that dancing and singing is forbidden even for Ashkenazim.
But if you look in the Eishel Avraham of Butchach (to 339:3), he doesn’t say that we dance and clap for Tosfos’ reason. He says that we dance and sing on Shabbos because of Simchas Shabbos, and it’s Mashma from him that we’d be allowed to dance and clap even in the Gemara’s time (when we were Baki in making a Kli Shir). I’m almost positive the Minchas Elazar says the same thing.
Chossid, I read every word of your long and heartfelt post, and I see that you keep falling into the same hole.
– We have what to offer, by way of chabad chassidus, in terms of understanding and knowing kevayochol Hashem.
– Our rebbe spent so much time worrying only about others.
– Thousands of people attest to him being a tzaddik etc.
– Others just accept anything bad about Lubavich because they are looking for it.Chabad chassidus as taught by the earlier rebbes certainly has what to offer to those seeking that line of thought. But, as your compatriot username pointed out recently, others believe that that is not the line of thought that should be sought, Furthermore, many people look at the situation in lubavich today and believe that all of the movement’s faults (SOME examples: lack of tznius, davening past the zman, unfiltered internet) are a direct result of lubavich concentrating on limud hachassidus and their obsession with Mashiach. They therefore conclude that it is a lot safer to keep away from chabad and their chassidus and to decline what it may have to offer.
Your rebbe spent “nights sitting with people in yechidus”, but how many nights a year was that? It wasn’t every night, and it was rarely if ever during the day. Did you know that there are other rebbes who spent every day and every night worrying about Klal Yisroel helping them individually and as a klal? And they don’t take money for it either. Yes, of course, many take money but in almost all the cases the money is used to help other Yidden. It’s not as if your rebbe didn’t get money from others for his own projects. There were big donors who gave money to lubavich and it was this money that was used by your rebbe at Sunday’s dollars, or to finance Likutei Sichos etc. Btw if you want to quote me some rebbes who do take money for personal use from people, and you think that that is improper, then leave them out of the equation. There are plenty of others who don’t.
Thousands of people attest to him being a tzaddik etc, but there are many Gedolei Yisroel (including virtually the entire Litvishe world) who think otherwise, and as Torah-true Yidden the view of Gedolei Yisroel carries far more weight than the view of ordinary people, many of whom were not even religious.
As far as looking for things in lubavich to badmouth, you have it totally wrong. We don’t have to look. It is shoved down our throats by your incessant propaganda machine! Wherever we go we see posters claiming your rebbe is Mashiach and/or how we can call a number and get answers to all our questions via the igros, we see lubavich pamphlets, e.g. Sichat Hashavua, in our shules where we didn’t ask for them. Even this thread was started by CS giving us an unbid explanation of how lubavich is right that we are in a state of Geulah. No one asked her for her views but she felt “compelled” to tell us all about it. Then when we push back and argue that it is a bunch of garbage and point out why we can’t take lubavich seriously we are accused of looking for ways to badmouth lubavich!
And here’s a quote from your post: “We don’t deny your Roshe yeshivois or rabbeim”
As you may recall, I am not a Litvak, but I have been disgusted to hear people say “Shach yemach shmoi” on more than one, and more than ten occasions. I have also heard other litvishe gedolim and, yes, even chassidishe rebbes, alive and not, being denigrated as if they were stupid, jealous fools. But no, you don’t deny other people’s roshei yeshivos or rabbeim!
I’ll grant you maybe you don’t, but there are vast numbers of other lubavichers who do, and they are mechanech kids that way too, kids who don’t even know who Rav Shach was.
Any non-lubavicher who has not yet given up reading this post may not believe this but I have heard yoiung lubavicher bochurim who think that the Shach on Shulchan Oruch was a bad guy!Again, and I hope for the last time, there seem to be four questions that have been asked here:
1. Practically, why doesn’t Lubavitch sleep in a Sukkah?
Answer: It’s the minhag. If the Minhag didn’t exist, we’d sleep in a Sukkah. Period. So if you don’t have such a Minhag, you should sleep in a Sukkah.
2. But how does a Minhag be totally against Halacha?
Answer: The Rebbe’s Limud Zchus sicha about tzar etc. And if a teaching of the Mitteler Rebbe (or the Frierdiker Rebbe, for that matter) doesn’t affect you and you have no Tzar, you have to sleep in the Sukkah, despite the Minhag.
3. Why did the Mitteler Rebbe (Leshitaseinu) tell us about the Makkifim of Binah? He could have kept quiet, we would have been ignorant, wouldn’t have had Tzar, and we’d be able to sleep in a Sukkah in peace.
Answer: Obviously we don’t know why he said it, as he never told us, and the Rebbe really doesn’t address this point. But: a) The Mitzvah isn’t to sleep in a Sukkah. The Mitzvah is to live in a Sukkah like you would in your own home. So since you sleep in your house, you have to sleep in a Sukkah. But being Mitztaer isn’t a Kullah, it’s not like a leniency for a Hefsed Meruba or Tzorech Gadol. It’s a built in part of the law of Sukkah. If the Tzaar is enough to move you out of your house, you’re Lechatchila allowed to move out of the Sukkah. So when he told us about the whole Makifin Debinah and gave us Tzar, he didn’t cause us to lose out on fulfilling the Mitzvah of living in a Sukkah (another Mashal – if I keep you up all night, was I mevatel your Mitzvah of living in a Sukkah?) b) So there’s no loss and there’s a gained appreciation for what a Sukkah is.
But this last point is mostly my theory, so it could be totally off. But as SHY pointed out, Lubavitch isn’t the only community with such a custom. So whatever reasons those communities had to start their custom could have been the reason behind ours.
4. Question. Fine, but ultimately this is all a Limud Zchus. Why would you want to be part of a movement which relies on these Limmudei Zchus? Why not join a Lechatchila movement?
Answer: I still think that our Maalos outweigh our one or two “Limmudei Zchus”.
My last post got me thinking so much that I can’t sleep. My fault for causing it myself.
Anyhow, after what I wrote in reply to chossid (and it doesn’t seem to have shown up in the thread yet) I was thinking again about what he wrote that we search for things to find wrong with Lubavcih, and how I replied that its actually that their propaganda machine rams it down our throats. A whole lot of other examples that rile me came to mind, so if I can’t sleep I may as well tell you about them and allow chossid, username, CS et al to respond.
As I’ve said so many times, I have nothing against you being different to others – each group is different in its own way – but why is it that you always have to show how different you are?
1. Why do I, an obvious non-lubavicher to anyone who just looks at me, have to be told every time I see a lubavicher on 19 Kislev “Leshono toivo bedarkei hachassidus” or whatever the exact lashon is? I don’t believe it is Rosh Hashono, no one outside of lubavich does, so why do I have to be “accosted” with that greeting by people who never even nod their heads to me when they pass me at any other time of the year, and who never say Gut Shabbos or Gut Yom Tov? (I have to mention in passing that I consider this R”H another meaningless lubavich meshigass made up relatively recently, but that’s not the point of what I’m posting now.)
2. Why does every lubavicher who passes me on Shavuos (again those who just walk right past me any other time of the year) have to make a point of saying to me “Kabbolas Hatorah bepnimiyus”? If it’s not just to show me how different/better they are, then what’s the point? I sometimes wonder whether the rule is to only say it to non-lubavichers, and that in the local chabad shules they just say “Gut Yom Tov” to each other like everyone else.
3. Why does it so often happen (not all the time, but far too often) that when saying kaddish in an Ashkenaz minyan a lubavicher will insist on saying Veyatzmach etc, and when people get upset about it the lubavicher just laughs it off? I also say Veyatzmach etc in kaddish, but when I’m davening in an Ashkenaz minyan I omit it because of minhag hamokom. I have seen many people who daven Ashkenaz say Veyatzmach etc when davening in our shul or in the local chabad shul, but ask a lubavicher to omit it and you will so often get nowhere.
4. Why can’t lubavichers accept that in many places, and our shule is just one such place, we finish davening with kaddish after Aleinu, with no further kaddish? Do they absolutely have to make an issue of saying Tehillim and then Kaddish Yasom and Kaddish Derabbonon? And again, if it upsets people, all the better.
5. Why can’t lubavichers davening elsewhere either do hagbah the way it is done in that place, or at the very least kindly explain that they would rather not do hagbah at all as they do it differently to the minhag hamokom? Is it really important for them to somehow maneuver past the person standing there waiting to do gelilah so that they can davka put the sefer back down on the bimah despite it upsetting the regular mispalelim?
And you want to know why we SEARCH for things to badmouth lubavich about! Again, the above examples are not the case with every lubavicher, but I am not the only one who has seen these cases happen more than once. And I didn’t even mention the times when people announce Yechi etc loudly after davening in other shuls. That is much less frequent, but it happens.
Hopefully going to sleep now, but I look forward to some reasoned responses.
“So according to Kalei Hapsak, the Halacha would be that dancing and singing is forbidden even for Ashkenazim.”
Why do you say “even?” We do posken it’s assur.“Answer: I still think that our Maalos outweigh our one or two “Limmudei Zchus”.”
Like what? All of Chabad’s unique minhagim are extreme kulos. The chumras are just standard Chassidishe practices done by other groups that don’t also have the kulos.But if you look in the Eishel Avraham of Butchach (to 339:3), he doesn’t say that we dance and clap for Tosfos’ reason. He says that we dance and sing on Shabbos because of Simchas Shabbos, and it’s Mashma from him that we’d be allowed to dance and clap even in the Gemara’s time (when we were Baki in making a Kli Shir). I’m almost positive the Minchas Elazar says the same thing.
I assume they mean that we can rely on Tosafos b’makom mitzvah, but if that’s what they mean, they mean the gezeirah never included that (I think Yalkut Yosef says that). They certainly don’t hold you can be mechallel Shabbos for Simchas Shabbos.
Either way, it fits with the normal klalei hp’sak. Not sleeping in the sukkah clearly doesn’t.
If the Tzaar is enough to move you out of your house, you’re Lechatchila allowed to move out of the Sukkah.
But you aren’t really mitztaer. It’s a fraud.
So when he told us about the whole Makifin Debinah and gave us Tzar, he didn’t cause us to lose out on fulfilling the Mitzvah of living in a Sukkah (another Mashal – if I keep you up all night, was I mevatel your Mitzvah of living in a Sukkah?)
It’s more like he set up a hose on the schach to make it rain, or stole your blankets, etc.
Also, if “Makifin Debinah” is a real cause for p’tur, and Hashem didn’t want us to sleep in the sukkah, he wouldn’t have given us that part of the mitzvah. It’s like you guys are reading the Chumash and/or Shulchan Aruch upside down. It’s a perversion of the Torah.
Also, you’re not really mitztaer. It’s a fraud.
username, and then Neville quoting him: “So according to Kalei Hapsak”
It took me until now to figure out what is going on. You mean KLALEI – not KALEI – hapsak, don’t you? If you don’t I still don’t know what you’re talking about
Do the lubavichers on this forum finally realize that they have no acceptable responses to our problems with their views? Is that why there is no activity here?
no. I don’t think they believe that at all. This was information they have no thought to argue. They just think we are too simple to understand, or we are just haters looking for things to pick on. Although we have stated over and over that our tayna’s come from halacha and Torah discrepancies I don’t see any acknowledgement of it.
“Do the lubavichers on this forum finally realize that they have no acceptable responses to our problems with their views? Is that why there is no activity here?”
Having a hard time falling asleep???
Well I do have a life besides this, I have a full day of chavrusa. And unfortunately I don’t get paid to respond.
But when I have the time I will respond.
And btw if you really have real problems, (which I don’t mind) why don’t you actually check up the topic before making conclusions (and not the other way around)? Like any other normal person who wants to get answers he learns the subject really well. (For example the sicha on sleeping in the sukkah) If you wore really sincere. Asking for too much?
But when the the time allows I will try to answer.
“Do the lubavichers on this forum finally realize that they have no acceptable responses to our problems with their views? Is that why there is no activity here?”
RSO, yes.
It took over 1800 posts, but you guys have finally gotten through to me. I’ve left 770, I’m currently looking for a place in Lakewood, (if anyone can help, please) and I’ve made slight modifications to the shape of my hat. I’ve bought Tzitzis that aren’t in accordance with the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, and I’ve even switched my trademark Lubavitch Yarmulke to a more mainstream velvet one. I put my Chitas in Sheimos, though, it’s just a Chumra, really Sefer Torah SheKosvo Min should be burned. I asked a Shayla to my new Rov, and he said I should continue wearing Rabbeinu Tams Tefilin until I’m Mattir Neder.Luckily, I was one of the fortunate few in Chabad to learn Gemara, so I’m not too behind in that field. And I’m attending Hypnosis sessions to attempt to deprogram me from all the brainwashing that I was subjected to.
When I can’t reach my new Rebbi, I open up a Krayna DeIgresa at random, and it’s quite helpful. I’ve tried Orchos Rabbeinu, but it doesn’t have the same effect. And the cherry on top – this Hey Teves (which they brainwashed me in Lubavitch to believe is a special day, and they encourage buying Seforim on that day) I went to Boro Park and bought myself a set of Avi Ezri. I’ve also cut my beard off, but I only shave Erev Shabbos, so I look a little more greasy.
Now that I look back at it, I wasted so many years of my life doing “Mivtzoim” and learning Chassidus. And being Doresh El HaMeisim at the Ohel, I think back now of how many hours I wasted there, believing the the Rebbe was answering my Tefillos. I could’ve finished several Masechtos in that time.
I thank the Ribono Shel Olam for sending me to this thread, so I finally see the light, and I thank all of you, especially Syag and RSO for your perseverance, it was hard, but you stuck to your guns. Yogayta Umatzasa Taamin! (Oops that’s a Chabad reference, but it does come from a Gemara in Megillah so probably okay.)
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