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The Bnei Yisroel received an extra crown for saying נעשה ונשמע explains the Ksav Sofer that by preceding the doing before hearing, must be the meaning not hearing, since we cannot do before hearing but understanding the reason for doing mitzvos. We do mitzvos with greater ferver when we know the reason for doing it. The Sefer Hachinuch is based on this idea. This is the idea which I tried to communicate in my second post. We do mitzvos not for leading to redemption but purify ourselves to be worthy of redemption.
35 page recap pls
Your Alter Bochur friend wants to marry a Lubavitcher and go on Shlichus. Discuss.
The Bright Blue sky tonite was quite literally ראשית צמיחת גאולתינו which was already piercing thru & emanating from the sky tonite.
username, great recap!
It was only 2 blown transformers@ Con Edison.
@ laskern
“…We do mitzvos with greater ferver when we know the reason for doing it. The Sefer Hachinuch is based on this idea”
+1
I would just modify the statement from “the reason” to “one of the reasons”.
Your point and eBurntFace’s point can actually stand together quite harmoniously. I think he is saying that ultimately our intent in doing Mitzvos is because Hashem said so. He is speaking to the issue that people have decided that they ought to do mitzvos with the intent of bringing about a certain effect / result. That’s not ok. That’s Hashem’s department, not ours.
Now, deepening our knowledge of and therefore appreciation of Hashem’s intent for saying so is certainly not only meretricious it is our obligation. Mitzvos are the means which Hashem gave us to connect to Him. To merely perform one’s obligations robotically like one discharging their obligation is not the pinnacle of a close relationship. I don’t think eBurntFace is disagreeing with that.
Gut Shabbos
Non Political – you just explained why we don’t pasken like Rebbi Shimon דרשינן טעמא דקרא because there are other reasons for doing a mitzva.
I’d like to point out that in Lubavitch we do Mitzvos because Hashem said so, and I’m not sure why anyone thinks otherwise. In fact, we often “laugh” at those who we percieve to be doing Mitzvos in order to get Schar.
Cmon
Another 270ish posts left and it’ll have more posts than the joke thread (although it’s debatable if this thread is the new joke thread)
I’m not sure why anyone thinks otherwise.
Because there are thousands of Lubavichers telling everyone to do mitzvos to bring Moshiach.
There’s representation on this very thread as well.
“Because there are thousands of Lubavichers telling everyone to do mitzvos to bring Moshiach.”
Hashem made this world, and put us on it, and gave us Mitzvos Maasiyos, in order for us to make him a Dirah B’tachtonim. The culmination of that, is Bias HaMoshiach.
We do Mitzvos because we are commanded to do so, but this is the reason why Hashem set up the world in such a fashion.
If you want to bring Moshiach, the best way to go about it is by increasing in Torah and Mitzvos. I see nothing controversial about that in the slightest.
Gut Shabbos!Sechel, I don’t think it’s controversial when you say it. It’s when CS says it, it’s controversial.
And since the only one saying things that are controversial is CS and Chossid, and she is seemingly unwilling to answer basic questions, I think this thread is over, unless she changes her mind.
We do Mitzvos because we are commanded to do so
That’s not what they’re saying.
DY: “We do Mitzvos because we are commanded to do so
That’s not what they’re saying.”He’s right. They are still saying that we should do mitzvos because that will bring Mashiach and since that is what Hashem wants we are “helping Him out”. We are saying that we should do mitzvos ONLY because He told us to.
The difference sounds fine but it is actually major.
@ SH
“In fact, we often “laugh” at those who we percieve to be doing Mitzvos in order to get Schar.”
Why laugh? Someone who gives Tzedaka so his son will live or to be zoche to olam haba is a Tzadik Gamur. The Gemoro says so. Furthermore mitooch shlo l’shmah ba l’shmah.
Furthermore who is talking about doing Mitzvos to get schar? The subject is doing Mitzvos to bring Moshiach. It was regarding this the eBurntFace posted the very relevant vort from the Ger Rebbe.
“Hashem made this world, and put us on it, and gave us Mitzvos Maasiyos, in order for us to make him a Dirah B’tachtonim. The culmination of that, is Bias HaMoshiach. We do Mitzvos because we are commanded to do so, but this is the reason why Hashem set up the world in such a fashion.”
Really? That is The Reason?? That is mamish the Tachlis HaBriah? (I assume) you well know Moshiach and Dira Btachtonim is not the end game עין לא ראתה אלקים זולתך ואכמ”ל. But I digress…
Knowing that the redemption is our destiny and anticipating / hoping for Moshiach is one thing. Making bringing Moshiach either the motivation for or intent of performing Mitzvot is another. When individuals or communities became fixated on this in the past the results where catastrophic.
SH: “In fact, we often “laugh” at those who we percieve to be doing Mitzvos in order to get Schar”
I once heard a lubavicher denigrating those who don’t do aveiros because of the fear of punishement, and saying that in lubavich that is not why we don’t do aveiros. (I have actually heard it far more than once, but in this case there was a good rejoinder, as I am about to write). A serious lubavicher talmid chochom whom I respect (yes, there are a few!) was present, and he commented, “That’s because in lubavich we don’t believe in Gan Eden or Gehennom.”
Think about it. So often people claim that it is wrong to consider schar ve’onesh, but that is not because we are on a higher madreiga. It’s because we are on a much lower madreiga and don’t have much yiras Shomayim of even the lowest type.
How does Lubavich explain “Ani Maamin…” HKB”H gives reward to those who obey his Mizvos, and punishes those who disregard them”?
S.char veonesh does NOT exist in Lubavich lexicon! According to the RAMBA”M, not believing any one of the 13 Principles of Faith is tantamount to kefirah CH”V!So, wait, are you arguing that Chabad is bad because they do mitzvos only for schar, or that they’re bad because they don’t believe in schar? I truly do not see how it can be both.
“So often people claim that it is wrong to consider schar ve’onesh, but that is not because we are on a higher madreiga. It’s because we are on a much lower madreiga”
You’re speaking of people who are neither doing things for hashem’s ratzon nor for schar, but rather just out of habit or a sense of cultural duty? Other than your friend, do you really find that problem to be more prevalent in Chabad?
Rashi states that Tzodak and Beisus misunderstood the mishnah in Pirkei Avos 1,3 thinking that there is no reward and punishment because they thought that there is no reward and punishment in this world so there is no reward and punishment altogether. Those people following them were apikursim called Tzodakim and Beisusim. If there were no reward and punishment, there would be no hashgacha and free will.
Don’t do mitzvos as in Yishayoh 29,13 כמצות אנשים מלומדה doing mitzvos from rout, without thinking from instict.
Laskern – We do mizvos by “ROTE”.
Neville: “So, wait, are you arguing that Chabad is bad because they do mitzvos only for schar, or that they’re bad because they don’t believe in schar? I truly do not see how it can be both.”
I don’t know who you’re addressing here, but because after the above you quote me I am assuming it’s me. So in reply, I never said anything about chabad doing mitzvos for schar.
“You’re speaking of people who are neither doing things for hashem’s ratzon nor for schar, but rather just out of habit or a sense of cultural duty? Other than your friend, do you really find that problem to be more prevalent in Chabad?”
No, I don’t find it more prevalent in chabad. But what I do find prevalent, and hypocritical, in chabad is that they claim that they do things for a higher purpose than sechar. My friend was pointing out in his sharp way that they are not higher than those who do it for sechar. They are lower.
Do people outside Lubavitch koch in Gan Eden or Gehenom on a daily basis? The few Mussar Shmoozes that I listened talked about much more mundane things. I definitely don’t remember the Rosh Yeshiva having a particular focus on the different levels of Gehenom and the different tortures found in each one.
The incentives and punishments in that Yeshiva were much more mundane. Respect for being good, and some sort of Knas for being bad.
username, contrary to what you have been fed in lubavich possibly since birth, the classic mussar seforim, and therefore the shmuesn in Litvishe yeshivos, don’t focus on reward and punishment. They tend to focus on how a person is to fix his shortcomings and to improve in his avodas Hashem.
I have never understood why the lubavicher rebbe wrote – I saw the letter, or sicha, but I don’t remember where – how a major difference between mussar and (chabad) chassidus is that mussar is depressing and chassidus is uplifting. Chovos Halvovos (written by a Rishon), for example, is not depressing at all, and it certainly uplifts you by telling you how to improve.
Username,
You obviously haven’t been to a sfardi shul
We always use “our circles” yeshivish, chasidish, but not sefardish, even though we respect them very highly, because the whole SEDER HATFILOS and the ATMOSPHERE is so different. For example, I davened in a sfardi shul Maariv on Shavuos . The chazan sang in the sefardi dialect and nusach, and I didn’t catch on that he was saying “V’hu rachum”, followed by Kadish and “Borchu”.
the classic mussar seforim, and therefore the shmuesn in Litvishe yeshivos, don’t focus on reward and punishment.
Which was my point. You don’t focus on reward and punishment for various reasons, and neither do we. You believe in reward and punishment, and so do we. It unfortunately doesn’t stop you completely from sinning, and unfortunately it doesn’t stop us.
The thing is like this. I, unfortunately, am not a “Beinoni who Davens all day”. Some Mitzvos I keep because of Mitzvos Anashim Melumada, some I keep because of communal pressure, sometimes I do have to pull out the Gehenom card (The Rebbe Rashab did say that it’s better to not sin from fear of punishment than to sin). And unfortunately, sometimes, well, חציף עלי דמפריט חטאיה.
The thing that Chassidus (at least Chabad. I’m not fluent enough in the other Seforim well enough to comment on their Hashkafas) does say, is that:
1. ובבינוני יש ג”כ שתי מדרגות עובד אלהים ואשר לא עבדו ואעפ”כ אינו רשע כי לא עבר מימיו שום עבירה קלה וגם קיים כל המצות שאפשר לו לקיימן ותלמוד תורה כנגד כולם ולא פסיק פומיה מגירסא אלא שאינו עושה שום מלחמה עם היצר לנצחו ע”י אור ה’ המאיר על נפש האלהית שבמוח השליט על הלב כנ”ל מפני שאין יצרו עומד לנגדו כלל לבטלו מתורתו ועבודתו ואין צריך ללחום עמו כלל כגון שהוא מתמיד בלמודו בטבעו מתולדתו על ידי תגבורת המרה שחורה וכן אין לו מלחמה מתאות נשים מפני שהוא מצונן בטבעו וכן בשאר תענוגי עוה”ז הוא מחוסר הרגש הנאה בטבעו ולכן אין צריך להתבונן כל כך בגדולת ה’ להוליד מבינתו רוח דעת ויראת ה’ במוחו להשמר שלא לעבור על מצות ל”ת ואהבת ה’ בלבו לדבקה בו בקיום המצות ות”ת כנגד כולן אלא די לו באהבה מסותרת אשר בלב כללות ישראל שנקראו אוהבי שמו ולכן אינו נקרא עובד כלל כי אהבה זו המסותרת אינה פעולתו ועבודתו כלל אלא היא ירושתנו מאבותינו לכלל ישראל וכמ”ש לקמן.
(Tanya Perek 15)
2. והיינו אפילו אם אינו עוסק שלא לשמה ממש, לשום איזו פניה חס ושלום, אלא כמו שכתוב: “ותהי יראתם אותי מצות אנשים מלומדה”. פירוש, מחמת הרגל שהורגל מקטנותו, שהרגילו ולימדו אביו ורבו לירא את ה’ ולעובדו, ואינו עוסק לשמה ממש. כי לשמה ממש אי אפשר בלא התעוררות דחילו ורחימו הטבעיים על כל פנים, להוציאן מהסתר הלב אל הגילוי במוח ותעלומות לבו על כל פנים. כי כמו שאין אדם עושה דבר בשביל חבירו למלאות רצונו, אלא אם כן אוהבו או ירא ממנו, כך אי אפשר לעשות לשמו יתברך באמת, למלאות רצונו לבד, בלי זכרון והתעוררות אהבתו ויראתו כלל במוחו ומחשבתו ותעלומות לבו על כל פנים. וגם אהבה לבדה אינה נקראת בשם עבודה בלי יראה תתאה לפחות, שהיא מסותרת בלב כל ישראל, כמו שיתבאר לקמן.
(Tanya Perek 39)
But yes, I agree with rso’s Rabbi to some degree. There are people take a quote (“I don’t want your Gan Eden and I don’t want Your Olam Habah. I just want You Yourself”) that takes years and years of hard Avodah to be able to say with truth, don’t do the required Avodah, and yet repeat it like it’s just basics. But there are people that (I think) actually do experience this feeling (at least once in a while 🙂 ).
Sam,
Not the point I was making
Username was saying Lubavitch has a “claim” to גן עדן & גיהנום because they talk about it in depth, whereas non Lubavitchers don’t
I’m saying sfardim do
BUT! Non-Lubavitch have YIRAS SHAMAYIM V’YIRAS CHEIT!
They do NOT attach any appendages to HASHEM ch”v.“Username was saying Lubavitch has a “claim” to גן עדן & גיהנום because they talk about it in depth, whereas non Lubavitchers don’t”
I think he was making a direct comparison between Chabad Chassidus and musar, not Chabad people vs all other groups. It gets hard to follow what points are being argued when the discussion went from “Chabad doesn’t do mitzvos for Hashem’s sake alone” to “Chabad doesn’t put enough thought into schar.”
Sphardim do seem to focus on schar and segulas a lot more (on average) than Ashkenazim. I think most posters here can recognize that without saying that one approach is abjectly better than the other. Why can’t we do the same with Chabad? I hate to say it, because I do think this has been a productive thread, but it’s starting to feel a lot like nit-picking at this point.
“How does Lubavich explain “Ani Maamin…” HKB”H gives reward to those who obey his Mizvos, and punishes those who disregard them”?
S.char veonesh does NOT exist in Lubavich lexicon! According to the RAMBA”M, not believing any one of the 13 Principles of Faith is tantamount to kefirah CH”V!”Lubavitche believes 100% in schar veonesh, gehenim gan eden, (we learn about the different levels of them in chassidus), just we don’t believe that, that’s the ultimate way we should do a mitzvah or not do a aveirah.
We try to emphasis that we should do mitzvah because Hashem chose us to have the zchus to do Hashems rotzion, and be a shutif with Hashem, kabolas al, and ultimately make a dirah betachtoinim, and if we cs”v do a aveirah, we are going against our mitzius and reason why we are created. And we are being moired bemalchus, (in Tanya it’s explained, that even a small aveirah is like כאילו doing avodah zarah).
Now if that doesn’t get to do mitzvos then obviously you should think about schar veonesh.My magid shiur (which is one of the top maggid shiurim in Lubavitche) said befieresh, if the above reasons doesn’t get you to do mitzvos, and hold you back from doing aveiros, then you should for sure think about schar veonesh and gan eden and gehenim.
I agree with NCB. There are enough legitimate issues with Chabad (nowadays) that we don’t need to nitpick on what are at most slight differences in priorities, and might just be semantics.
Look at the Rambam at the begining of Perek Chelek that each age does things for different reasons. When he grows up, he learns to do mitzvos for the right reason as mentioned above.
Looks like the thread has petered out without any satisfactory answers to nearly all the questions we non-lubavichers asked.
Have we just tired you out or are you really out of answers?
“Looks like the thread has petered out without any satisfactory answers to nearly all the questions we non-lubavichers asked.”
I would take a more optimistic approach:
-CS was notorious for making veiled references to meshichism (case and point, the thread title) and now she’s come clean about her beliefs.
-Various Lubavitchers have made posts confirming a lot of our criticisms (maybe not on purpose).I responded to many “questions”, (more like your personal conclusions). At least the ones that were purely moitzi Shem rah etc.
It’s your choice to take them or not.
For some reason it seems that when some posters here realize that their tayinos on Lubavitche are not really true (for example reason to do mitzvos), they just brush them away and say that there better problems to discuss. For some reason I see that purely out of sinas Yisrael.Btw can I ask some questions? (Questions not conclusions)
“For some reason it seems that when some posters here realize that their tayinos on Lubavitche are not really true (for example reason to do mitzvos), they just brush them away and say that there better problems to discuss. For some reason I see that purely out of sinas Yisrael.”
For some reason it seems every time a Lubavitch concept/issue was proved inappropriate the posters decide it’s sinam chinam and call us haters.
For some reason it seems that when some posters here realize that their tayinos on Lubavitche are not really true (for example reason to do mitzvos)
Who decided that wasn’t a legitimate tayna? It is.
Chossid: “I responded to many “questions”, (more like your personal conclusions).”
Some were, and not of those have been dispelled.
” At least the ones that were purely moitzi Shem rah etc.”
It’s not motzi shem ra just because you disagree with them.
“It’s your choice to take them or not.”
As others have already pointed out, your answers were not anything that would, or even could, be accepted by any chareidi non-lubavicher, and that bringing proof from things your rebbe said is not sufficient when trying to prove him correct and justifiable.
Just two examples: Despite all that has been said, no non-lubavicher will accept the “lomdus” behind the reason why it is a higher madreiga not to sleep in a sukkah. Similarly, no non-lubavicher will accept that any of the Rambam’s “requirements” to be Mashiach apply to the lubavicher rebbe. (I know you may not have said that they do, but CS certainly has, and there are literally thousands of lubavichers who are not on this forum who claim as much.)“For some reason it seems that when some posters here realize that their tayinos on Lubavitche are not really true (for example reason to do mitzvos), they just brush them away and say that there better problems to discuss. For some reason I see that purely out of sinas Yisrael.”
You will find that I have never brushed anything out of the way, and I believe I have argued every point fairly. Please show me where I have not, and I’ll either admit my fault or explain myself better.
Btw can I ask some questions? (Questions not conclusions)”
Certainly! Ask away.
Btw, and this is not a prerequisite before you ask as I don’t have a monopoly on asking, but there are still some outstanding questions that we have asked that haven’t been addressed.
Only one poster, CS, has addressed the Sefer Chassidim that says that if someone prophesies about Mashiach it will be to his great shame, and her response that it was taken out of context was patently ridiculous to anyone who has ever opened a Sefer Chassidim. Do you have anything to say to clarify your position on that?
Also, as far as I remember, no one has explained why the Ari z”l, who of course knew all about the Or Hamakif, could sleep in the sukkah yet the lubavicher rebbes could not. And if the reason is that the Ari z”l was on a higher madreiga, then why not assume that he was Mashiach, if, that is, Mashiach can be someone who was already niftar?But don’t let any of that interfere with you asking me your questions. I am quite intrigued, and I look forward to them.
I think we need a kenessia of all/most chachmei Yisroel to determine where Emuna Sheleima ends, and false emuna begins. There are too many mesichist beliefs that “smell” of AZ, plus, all other emuna subjects discussed during this “long” thread. A Rabbi Shimon Hakipuli would be most welcome to sort out this confusion… VD”L
“For some reason it seems that when some posters here realize that their tayinos on Lubavitche are not really true (for example reason to do mitzvos), they just brush them away and say that there better problems to discuss.”
I’ll respond since this refers to myself and Daas Yochid. I never jumped on board with the “reason to do mitzvos” criticism, and neither did DY, so it’s a complete lie to say we “realized these weren’t true.” We never were making these points in the first place. The points WE were making, like the sleeping in the Sukkah issue, we have never backed down from. And, the people who were actually making the points about schar never backed down from their arguments. I don’t think this was just a case of you mixing up usernames. You think the rest of the world is one big “Protocols of the Elders of Lita” conspiracy against Chabad that all has a shared toolbox of arguments. We all have our own individual concerns based on life experiences, or what we’ve seen said or written. And, some of us might not share the same concerns as one another. Believe it or not, we are all actually individual human beings.
I have a right mind to just say that I take back what I said about nit-picking if that’s how your camp is going to use it.
For the record, I do think the reason to do mitzvos issue is legit, but not the schar v’onesh.
I just want to check that the time is not worthless, that’s all.
Not wortless at all.
CS, I can think of many better ways to utilize your spare time. Lmk if you want my suggestions.
SH – 😂🤣
I had hoped that after Shabbos I would be able to enjoy being challenged by chossid’s questions, but nothing so far. Why?
Have we just tired you out or are you really out of answers?
I have a life outside the coffeeroom, the Gemaras call, you know.
Just two examples: Despite all that has been said, no non-lubavicher will accept the “lomdus” behind the reason why it is a higher madreiga not to sleep in a sukkah.
I don’t find a point in going around in circles. Have you found a source that:
1. Emotional Tzaar isn’t Tzaar. and
2. Tzaar has to be that strong that he will not be able to do the act.
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