The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

“Note the Rambam never discusses what happens if the bchezkas moshiach passes away naturally. He only says two things disqualify: If he is unsuccessful or if he is killed”

In the interest of intellectual honesty, I’d like to point out the before Gimmel Tammuz, it was very Poshut to any Lubavitcher that Moshiach must come from the living. No one had ever come up with these diyukim of “it says Nehrag, not meis”. After Gimmel Tammuz however, many now realized that they had a problem reconciling their beliefs with the unfortunate reality. So there were two approaches, one was “true, Moshiach must be alive, but the Rebbe simply never was Nistalek, he’s still alive in a Guf Gashmi”, the other approach is that of course, the Rebbe passed away, however, Moshiach could be Min HaMeisim. While the second one is obviously less delusional, nobody would have ever thought that way before Gimmel Tammuz.

“The role of a Rebbe is that by strengthening your connection to him you strengthen your connecting to Hashem.”
The Ramabams Hilchos Ovodas Cochavim says very similar to how you’ve been explaining that.
“וזו היתה טעותם אמרו הואיל והאלהים ברא כוכבים אלו וגלגלים להנהיג את העולם ונתנם במרום וחלק להם כבוד והם שמשים המשמשים לפניו ראויין הם לשבחם ולפארם ולחלוק להם כבוד וזהו רצון האל ברוך הוא לגדל ולכבד מי שגדלו וכבדו כמו שהמלך רוצה לכבד העומדים …לפניו וזהו כבודו של ”
“If it really was a problem and distracted from Hashem, then MY generation would have mostly forgotten Hashem cvs or Chabad would have broken down and joined other groups”
The meshichist are unfortunately already viewed as another group. I have witnessed Meshichists thrown out of three seperate Chabad shuls for chanting “yechi” (I frequent chabad shuls and events as my relatives are Chabad, one Baltimore, Philadelphia, & one Chabad Shtieble in Montreal). I have seen many Chasidic Litvish “mixed marraiges”, myself included. I doubt anyone has witnessed that with meshichists, unless one partner became a meshichist before they were even redt the shidduch. Meshichists are their own group already.
I’m not saying they dont give tzedakah to all Jews, or are bad neighbors. Meshichists are not necessarily Kofrim, but they are not viewed in Orthodox Judaisim as just “eilu v’eilu”. In general all other Chassidim are, Chabad included. Meshichists views are just not viewed as part of the same group as the rest.

CS: ” I’m saying that just as Shimshon is considered shofet 40 years in Torah, even though he only physically led them for 20, because his influence continued after his passing, so too here”

It does NOT say that he was shofet for 40 years. Rather it says twice that he was shofet 20 years. The Radak discusses this and he is the one who cites a midrash which says that the second time it says it to indicate that the Plishtim were scared of him for twenty years after his petirah.

No one that I have found claims that he was considered a shofet after he was niftar.

CS: “Rso wrote that shlucho shel adam kmoso is cancelled when the meshaleach dies.
Question: A) What’s the source for that? B) Is it referring to future shlichus or even past ones that the person physically appointed? Ie if someone sends a shliach with a shtar eirusin for his daughter, and he meshaleiach dies before the shliach reaches the chosson, is it automatically cancelled?”

A) The gemoro and halocho.
B) (I don’t know why you picked a shtar eirusin and not stam sent a shliach kiddushin. Methinks you are getting “support” from a male, which is fine with me.) Yes, It is automatically cancelled!

@ CS

“when you look at the results you will see it is the truth. If it really was a problem and distracted from Hashem, then MY generation would have mostly forgotten Hashem cvs or Chabad would have broken down and joined other groups as many predicted. The fact that not only are we not decreasing, but we’re growing stronger shows something”

The truth? Hardly. I do concede that it does show something…just not what you think.

“The question only is what if the person DID fulfill bchezkas moshiach but then passed away yet their work is ongoing so you cannot say lo hitzliach ad ko? That’s what we’re discussing here. Note you didn’t answer my question. I really would appreciate a straight answer.”
As I have written previously, the Rebbe was not Chezkas Moshiach. He simply didn’t fulfill it. There’s no way to read the Rambam and understand otherwise.

It does NOT say that he was shofet for 40 years. Rather it says twice that he was shofet 20 years. The Radak discusses this and he is the one who cites a midrash which says that the second time it says it to indicate that the Plishtim were scared of him for twenty years after his petirah.

The Yerushalmi (Sotah) does, but it’s most likely a typo.

. כתוב אחד אומר וישפוט את ישראל מ’ שנה. וכתוב א’ אומר (שם) והוא שפט את ישראל ך’ שנה. אמר ר’ אחא מלמד שהיו הפלשתים יראים ממנו ך’ שנה לאחר מותו כדרך שהיו יראים ממנו ך’ שנה בחייו:

CDS
I know you can read a Rambam, and probably know that Rambam already. He clearly says what the the problem is, and it exactly what you say makes it kosher.
“avoda zara if not within Hashem’s system… the egel was an outside entity that the yidden came up with”
Here’s the English Rambam from Chabad.org

Their mistake was as follows: They said God created stars and spheres with which to control the world. He placed them on high and treated them with honor, making them servants who minister before Him. Accordingly, it is fitting to praise and glorify them and to treat them with honor. [They perceived] this to be the will of God, blessed be He, that they magnify and honor those whom He magnified and honored, just as a king desires that the servants who stand before him be honored. Indeed, doing so is an expression of honor to the king.
They clearly percieved it within the system. The Ramabm goes on as everyone knows and says only later false prophets took them away from Hashem, they remembered who they ultimately were serving, just they had an intemidiary. An I termediary who was closer to Hashem, who if they honored also honerd Hashem ect..

“Aside from the fact that the Rebbe said about the Frierdiker Rebbe that he can still be moshiach even after yud shvat.”

So, according to you, the FR was Chezkas Moshiach, and still could be because “Meis not Neherag”, when did he lose his Chazaka? Perhaps he is still Moshiach?

I’m not trying to laugh at you, I’m actually making a point here. If the FR was B’Chezkas Moshiach, and still retained that status after Yud Shvat, then the rest of your beliefs are nonsense. Obviously, the FR was never Chezkas Moshiach, and quite frankly, neither was the Rebbe. I ask you again, read the Rambam, and turn on the Mochin Machine™, not the Middos Machine, and please tell me with a straight face that the Rebbe was Chezkas Moshiach.

not sure why you write dismissively it was a typo?aside from the fact that we don’t eat fish and milk because of a typo and not even one in the gemara – what gives you the right to think that? This is gemara…

I wasn’t dismissive. It’s just known than the Yerushalmi has a lot of typos, since it wasn’t (and isn’t) learned nearly as often as the Bavli. It also had fewer Kisvei Yad for the same reason. Especially when it quotes a Pasuk that doesn’t exist.

They clearly percieved it within the system. The Ramabm goes on as everyone knows and says only later false prophets took them away from Hashem, they remembered who they ultimately were serving, just they had an intemidiary. An I termediary who was closer to Hashem, who if they honored also honerd Hashem ect..

The mistake they made was that Hashem never told us to worship the stars, while Hashem did tell us to cling to Torah scholars, and clinging to Torah scholars does increase our service of Hashem. On a simple level, the Torah scholar teaches us Torah and tells us how to do Mitzvos. On a deeper level, he inspires us to serve Hashem, and on an even deeper level, by teaching us פנימיות התורה he inspires us to serve Hashem with a Chayus, with דחילו ורחימו. In other words, the entire Tachlis of connecting to a Talmid Chacham is so that he’ll guide us in serving Hashem. In contrast, the stars said “you can’t serve Hashem. He’s too lofty. Serve me instead and I’ll take care of the rest”.

“The mistake they made was that Hashem never told us to worship the stars”
Is that in the Rambam? He says the mistake was in the calculation, he hardly touches the actual worship of stars. It’s even more clear in Hebrew the mistake was in the thinking honoring those closer to Hashem is like honoring Hashem. I guess unless it’s a Rebbe

In the interest of intellectual honesty, I’d like to point out the before Gimmel Tammuz, it was very Poshut to any Lubavitcher that Moshiach must come from the living. No one had ever come up with these diyukim of “it says Nehrag, not meis”. After Gimmel Tammuz however, many now realized that they had a problem reconciling their beliefs with the unfortunate reality. So there were two approaches, one was “true, Moshiach must be alive, but the Rebbe simply never was Nistalek, he’s still alive in a Guf Gashmi”, the other approach is that of course, the Rebbe passed away, however, Moshiach could be Min HaMeisim. While the second one is obviously less delusional, nobody would have ever thought that way before Gimmel Tammuz.

Just curious why the obvious third choice, that he’s not Moshiach, is so uncommon.

“because he himself said that he is “Shevi’i kodesh Lashem”…”
Sam, as you are well versed in the Rebbes Sichos, please tell me, where and when did the Rebbe say those words?

*You write….

As far as the Rambam is concerned, I think it’s pretty obvious the reason the Rambam didn’t say אם מת is because that it’s included in אם לא עשה והצליח

The Rambam might have a proof from Moshiach ben Josef where after he was killed he was not Moshiach any more.

@ CS

” The truth is pretty much all those over the top quotes the REBBE himself made about the Frierdiker Rebbe, his Rebbe, the year after his histalkus. Including the Rebbe saying he is with us in this Gashmius world, running the world by being morer rachamim above etc. So we haven’t gone crazy. We’re just following in our Rebbe’s ways. And as the Rebbe was acknowledged as a tzadik by many other gedolei Yisrael…”

The Gedolim who understood the last Lubavitcher Rebbe’s words the way you do did not acknowledge him as such. The ones who did where 1) unaware of the controversial statements OR 2) where aware of them but refused to believe that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe actually said them, OR 3) understood the statements in line with how SH and Username do.

The scope of my disagreement with SH and Username are nuanced, not unique to Chabad, and a distraction from the more pressing issues being addressed . I am sure they realize that in this case shtika is not k’hodah.

Did I misunderstand, or did TomimTihyeh actually defend our understanding of the Rambam that a dead person can’t be Mashiach?

tfaceBURN, The explanation might be that the Jews sacrificed the Korban Pesach the lamb which is the constelation of Nisan to show that we are above the determination of the mazel and only believe in Hashem’s hashgacha necessary to accept before the redemption.

laskern I think youre missing the point. Whatever the reason for bringing the korbon pesach was the Sefas Emes wrote that the reason it led to their redemption was because they brought it only because Hashem said to. Not because it would lead to their redemption.
So its just like doing mitzvos only because Hashem said. not because it will bring moshiach.
Have a look at the piece of Sefas Emes I quoted.