- This topic has 2,052 replies, 68 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
CORRECTION: Not necessarily is Mashiach, but could be/might be/will be etc..
Any of those positions is delusional.“SHY, most of your friends are meshichists?”
“DY, good diyuk. SHY is just saying what many of us already know – most chabadniks think the Rebbe is Mashiach, even if they aren’t delusional enough to say he’s alive.”No.
Chosid, by the Beis Din we say אין לבית דין אלא מה שעיניו רואות which explains your Rambam by edim zamimim.
SHY: ““Which other chassidic communities don’t sleep in a sukkah beshita?”
I already posted that information here.”And if I can’t find it in a thread with over 1500 posts you won’t post it again?!
Chossid: “If you believe that tzadikim have Ruach hakodesh, and saw stuff which other people didn’t, how do you explain this rambam?
שְׁנַּיִם שֶׁהֵעִידוּ וְאָמְרוּ בְּמִזְרַח הַבִּירָה הָרַג זֶה אֶת הַנֶּפֶשׁ בְּשָׁעָה פְּלוֹנִית וּבָאוּ שְׁנַיִם וְאָמְרוּ לָהֶן בְּמַעֲרַב הַבִּירָה הַזֹּאת הֱיִיתֶם עִמָּנוּ בָּעֵת הַזֹּאת. אִם יָכוֹל הָעוֹמֵד בְּמַעֲרָב לִרְאוֹת מַה שֶּׁבַּמִּזְרָח אֵינָן זוֹמְמִין. וְאִם אֵינוֹ יָכוֹל לִרְאוֹת הֲרֵי אֵלּוּ זוֹמְמִין וְאֵין אוֹמְרִין שֶׁמָּא מְאוֹר עֵינֵיהֶם שֶׁל רִאשׁוֹנִים רַב וְרוֹאִין מֵרָחוֹק יֶתֶר מִכָּל אָדָם.:
Even if they can “see” or know what’s going on במזרח while they are standing במערב (which according to norm you can’t see it) they still will be considered עדים זוממים, because we go according to norm”Sorry but that’s irrelevant. The Rambam is talking about physically seeing something. I don’t yet have ruach hakodesh but I don’t think it means physically seeing something.
And as far as the norm goes, the Rambam writes that we don’t say “perhaps” his eyesight is better than anyone else’s. But if he could prove that he can say the Sanhedrin won’t kill him. Here, on the other hand, the Rambam says point blank that we give him malkus immediately for saying that he won’t sleep for 3 days.I want to point out how far you are brainwashed in your beliefs.
The original point was that the heter for not sleeping in the sukkah because of tzaar that you can sleep is ridiculous. NOT that your rebbe was wrong for not sleeping in the sukkah, as if that is truly an old minhag it’s good enough for me and, I assume, anyone else who follows talmidei Habaal Shem.
When you replied to that you mentioned BY THE WAY that you heard from mazkirim that the rebbe didn’t sleep for the entire 7 days of Sukkos.
I replied that that is impossible and that the Rambam proves as much.
Then you answer that by “showing” how the rebbe was above nature. I argued that it’s irrelevant. You argue back by trying to prove it from a different Rambam, etc.Do you see what you are doing? The MAZKIRIM said something and you just have to believe it because if you don’t, and you accept that the halachah of the Rambam applies to your rebbe as well – even though NO ONE is claiming that there is anything wrong with it applying to your rebbe – you feel you are doubting your rebbe.
So now the statements of the mazkirim – each of whom is denigrated by either the meshichisten or anti-meshichisten – are also Kodesh Kodoshim!
Chossid: “It’s quite clear it’s only to be considered a גר תושב.
So its not worth nothing”Sorry, chossid, but you’re misquoting the Rambam:
רמב”ם הלכות מלכים פרק ח
וכן צוה משה רבינו מפי הגבורה לכוף את כל באי העולם לקבל מצות שנצטוו בני נח, וכל מי שלא יקבל יהרג, והמקבל אותם הוא הנקרא גר תושב בכל מקום וצריך לקבל עליו בפני שלשה חברים,He doesn’t even talk here about them keeping the mitzvos! Moshe Rabbeinu commanded us to force all humans to BE MEKABEL the 7 mitvos, and whoever is not MEKABEL them – and that means being mekabel in front of three chaveirim – is chayav misa. That’s what he says.
From this Rambam it is clear that keeping the 7 mitzvos is worthless without being mekabel.
HOW!! do you go about killing EVERY GOY for not being mekabel 7 Mizvos B’nei Noach? And what nafka mina is it today? What weight does it carry in whether the Rebbe is Moshiach?
In other words, ma inyan shmitta ecel Har Sinai???I know the examples I gave with Litvish practices were not meakev halachos that we ignore (if they were, I wouldn’t be Litvish). I guess they weren’t really good examples of retroactive minhag justification. The mashal to Chabad’s Sukkah issue was more as an example of having a shittah phrased as a chumrah, when really we all know it’s a kulah:
-We’re so strict on bal gaavah that we have no mikvah and make all our bochrim shave.
-We’re so strict with our learning that we never say korbonos
-We’re so strict with the kedushah of the Sukkah that we don’t sleep in itThey all sound pretty silly when you take a step back, in my opinion.
@🍫Syag Lchochma
I looked for those online pictures you mentioned and there is no question it is not a sheital. These pictures are old, none are recent, but they are definitely her hair.
Doesn’t seem clear to me that it wasn’t a sheitul. Just because she wears a hat doesn’t mean that she wasn’t wearing a sheitul, like the minheg is by some, to wear a double covering.
“So now I’m confused… neither of your answers state that she did in fact cover her hair. Does that mean she didn’t? Or that you don’t know? And what do you mean that hardly anyone saw her? Wasn’t their house open with constant streams of people as is the case with Gedolim, great rabbeim and people who live for the kehilla? Didn’t they have hundreds of shabbos guests? Didn’t the females who where desperate for Brachos and chizuk find a place at her door?”
Seems like you don’t know anything about lubavitche and the Rebbe. Don’t blame you.
What I’m saying is that, I don’t know 100% that she did wear a sheitul, because I haven’t spoken to people that took care of the house or the people that spened time with her. But I will be pretty surprised if she didn’t, because when a chosen and kalah used to asked the Rebbe to be mesader kidushin at their chasunah, the Rebbe gave two tenoyim, 1. The chosen has to have a beard (not to touch his beard). And the kalah will wear a sheitul.
So I will be surprised if he didn’t have the rebbitzin where a sheitul. And especially how tzunah the rebbitzin was. But again I don’t know for sure. Just my point is that you can’t say outrageous facts without valid proofs. Not this “online evidence” thing.@DaasYochid ☕
“I’ve seen pictures. Including on chabad . org.”Doesn’t seem to me that it’s her hair.
“Sure, because he knew, first hand, that wearing a different kind of covering often leaves the hair partially uncovered. In the famous picture of her, which is on the official Chabad website, she’s not wearing a sheitel. Defending her by saying, “Do you know how much the Rebbe spoke about women waering shietuls?” is really odd when she clearly didn’t (always) wear one.
And btw, I don’t only know this from the internet, but that’s the only evidence I can show you.”Again it doesn’t seem from any of the pictures, but from where else to you know this from?
@🍫Syag Lchochma
“This seems to have been brought by CS and chossid as “proofs” of the rebbes omniscience, so it makes me wonder if you/they are aware that this is something that we find across many many gedolim and tzaddikim of past and present.”I fully aware.
Just wondering why people like to deny the fact that the Rebbe made miracles and have ruach hakodesh. When you have thousands of people giving testimony that It happened to them personally.Btw there was stories that Rebbes sent people to the Rebbe to get brochois.
For example did anyone see the video that went around 2 months ago of Rabbi Y Y Jacobson saying a story about someone going to the satmer Rebbe for a brocha and the satmer Rebbe said that for big problems I send them to the Lubavitcher Rebbe and that’s why he wrote a letter to the Rebbe
He said it without names, but it happened to be with a non Lubavitcher relative of mine.
Did anyone come across it? I know it was also going around the between the non Lubavitchers.@Neville ChaimBerlin
“For the point about retroactively justifying minhagim, yeah I kind of have to give you that. You brought out examples from Chassidish minhagim, but everyone has this kind of thing. Eg. the fact that Litvish yeshivas don’t have mikvahs b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim are clean-shaven b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim could go years without saying korbanos b’shittah, etc.”
I personally find it to be a little different.
By the “litvaks” it was finding heteirim for the yeddin that wore nechsal it in certain stuff, for example clean shaving beard, (whether you personally consider it as chumrah, or a plain eisur). Cuz people were copping the goyim, or just made fun of my having a beard, or couldn’t get a job, like it was in the early 1900s in America.
On the other hand regarding not sleeping in a sukkah, this minhag is based on a concept in kabola that their is high oirios shining on the sukkah, מקיפים דבינה, so rabbeim couldn’t fall asleep, or had tzar in the sukkah.Rebbe still couldn’t understand how is it possible that kabola and niglah clash, like it states in chassidus that it’s one Torah so how could it be bestirah. And what’s the heter for the chassidim which don’t feel these oirios.
So that’s how the Rebbe ties it in with tzar.
If I’m not mistaken the Rebbe also asks, that it doesn’t make sense it’s a kulah, because we see that the rebbiem wore makpit to not even drink a little sip water outside the sukkah, even on shmini etzeres.
So how come they didn’t sleep in the sukkah?.I didn’t learn the sicha recently but this is what I think personally off hand.
Chossid – I’m really sorry, I know you are sincere but you can’t answer peoples questions saying, “I know this is how it is because it has to be how it is because it wouldn’t be otherwise. And besides lots of people said so”
I will not argue the hair, nor anymore of these points because your responses indicate that you don’t really know the answer but you won’t accept anything other than you wish it was and want it to be. I’m seeing a lot of that here and it doesn’t leave room for response.@ NCB
I don’t agree with you that the shaving and korbanos policies were silly.
Bochurim shaving goes back to a consideration the Roshei Yeshivas had before the war and very much applied in the US after the war as well. This policy greatly enhanced kavod HaTorah and ultimately harbatzes HaTorah. Also, in communities where only the Rebonim had beards it is very much machzi k’yuhera for unmarried bochurim to do the same.
According to the GR”A we should be starting with Baruch Sh’amar in Shul, as s it is we are already being machmir to start before that. If someone wants to say Korbanos before the minyan starts what’s stopping them? Keep in mind that making things longer won’t necessarily increase the amount of time people will spend on Tephilla, they will just davven faster to be able to say more in the same amount of time. Also, the hashivus of Torah vis a vis Tephilla is not a silly thing to hammer home. The Nefish HsChayim spent a considerable amount of ink on that subject.
Statement to the Chabadskers (both meshichist and not).
Whatever you want to say about HaGaon Harav Shach ZT”L, it is indisputable that he was the gaon HaTorah for Chareidim in his later years. Even Chassidim, who he disagreed with on a lot of stuff, held of him as a Gaon. Every living Rebbe showed up to his levaya. It’s only Lubavitch that attempts to undermine him and pretend he was just another misnaged because he was exceptionally critical of Chabad and Rav Schneerson ZT”L due to the meshichists. His greatness was part of the reason why Chabad continues to single him out. Many (actually most) Rabbonim held of and said the same things he did. You probably won’t find a Rav, Rosh Yeshiva, or Rebbe who disagrees with Rav Shach’s shittos on Chabad. But since none were as great as him during the late 80’s and 90’s it became Rav Shach’s voice that was used to illustrate the criticism against Chabad. Very convenient for Chabad, because they can pretend it’s only one guy and brush it under the table as an archaic misnaged thing.
“Viewing 10 posts – 1,551 through 1,560 (of 1,560 total)”
Poor mods.
If CS would have known what a “can of worms” – private shmutz – would become public knowledge through this Post, she would/should NEVER have started it. “K’var nishma keren B’yavne”!
Halevay we should hear BEKAROV!! Shofro Shel Moshiach.Non Political:
You’re missing my point. Take the way you feel about the Litvish customs and apply that as the feeling Lubavitchers have about not sleeping in the Sukkah. Now take the way you feel about Lubavitchers not sleeping in the Sukkah and apply that as the feeling they have about the Litvish practices I mentioned. Nobody is going to waiver from their side. Obviously, I agree that we’re more in the right; you don’t need to defend our customs to me.
I will say though that what Chossid is implying about shaving being a more extreme heter than being mevatil the mitzvah of sleeping in the Sukkah is completely absurd. The heter of not sleeping in the Sukkah is actually explicitly cited as a retroactive heter (a psak made in response to masses being meikel with no heter) in the S”A. You have no proof that bochrim being clean shaven for bal gaavah reasons is a retroactive heter. We don’t posken, like Chabad I believe does, that there’s a problem of lo yilbash in shaving the face, so it’s not a kulah by us. Sleeping in the Sukkah, on the other hand, all hold is a d’oraysa. The reason it’s getting so much discussion here and because it is quite possibly the only example of a group claiming that being mevatel a mitvah d’oraysa is a chumrah.
@ NCB
“You’re missing my point.”
I do understand and appreciate your point.
“Take the way you feel about the Litvish customs apply that as the feeling Lubavitchers have about not sleeping in the Sukkah. Now take the way you feel about Lubavitchers not sleeping in the Sukkah and apply that as the feeling they have about the Litvish practices I mentioned.”
My position regarding litvish customs is not based on a feeling it’s based on reason. I’m not willing to equivocate between the two. Judging by your response, neither are you.
How about – as mentioned earlier – NOT observing Yom Kippur Katan, because “Men hot shoin ausgepuzt die kneplach”? This was said 30-35 years ago by the Rebbe. Why are we still in Galus then? YKK is a din in Gemara and SA, so how do you say that it doesn’t have to be done?
Meile you don’t say it like not saying Tachnun, NU! But to come out & saying NOT TO SAY IT???CS, see what I wrote on the topic Interptetation of the Parshe of the Week.
CS, If Jews would have stayed the full 400 years, there would have been no other galus. The Chasam Sofer explains that Pesach was the cause for Tisha Beov that is why we eat eggs at the seder which falls on the same day as א’ת the first day of Pesach falls as Tisha Beov. It is like being hit by pebbles or a rock, many smaller galuses or a big one.
“YKK is a din in Gemara ”
I have asked this earlier but no one addressed it. Where does it mention Yom Kippur Kattan in the Gemoro? I’m not saying it doesn’t, just asking where.
Sorry about stating that Yom Kippur Katan is from the Gemara, it was started by the RAMA”K. and by the AR”I Z”L.
CS: “He concluded that the answer is that Hashem wants moshiach and Geula to go from being just something that the Nossi cares about to something the Am, every regular man woman and child care about. So it’s up to us…”
But if “even the buttons have been polished”, i.e. absolutely everything has been done, then “the Am” caring about it is included and has already been fulfilled. On the other hand, if it’s necessary that “every regular man woman and child care about” Mashiach coming, and that is not yet the case, then the buttons haven’t been polished.
You can’t have it both ways unless either Hashem changed the rules in the middle of the game, or, and I believe this is what all of us non-lubavichers believe to be the case when it comes to these types of statements, you believe in doublespeak.
CS: “People are searching for meaning and stronger connection to Hashem both not yet frum and frum alike nowadays. I even see this by the non Jews in levels never before seen in history.”
Could you please elaborate on how you see this by non-Jews in unprecedented levels?
samthenylic: “orry about stating that Yom Kippur Katan is from the Gemara, it was started by the RAMA”K. and by the AR”I Z”L”
Thanks for the clarification. I didn’t know it was started by them.
CS, That is what we say in the Hagadah חשב את הקץ if you remove 190, ketz from 400 you get 210, רדו the difference between יצחק and ישחק.
“My position regarding litvish customs is not based on a feeling it’s based on reason. I’m not willing to equivocate between the two. Judging by your response, neither are you.”
I’m willing to equate the way we view our customs with the way Chabad views their’s. They would also say that their’s are based on reason rather than feeling.
Can somebody explain this Call of the Shofar cult? It sounds way more interesting than anything else you’re talking about.
“For example, Rabbi Emmanuel Schochet pulled a prank with some other bochurim in Yeshiva where they switched around the books in the library and piled up the furniture.”
Right, that’s completely similar to Saying the Rebbe’s Hashem.
“As far as putting Himself in the Rebbe you’re misunderstanding. The point is we ALL have Atzmus umehus inside of us. As the Alter Rebbe says in Tanya perek beis that our neshama is a chelek Eloka mimaal mamash. And the essence of our neshama is one with Hashem.”
And in other places he says Kaviyachol. This is not meant to be taken literally, and is kefira if it is. We do not have GOD in us, we have GODLINESS. Big difference – and is the difference between yiddishkeit and kefira. A mistake in this is a mistake in yichud Hashem!!!! While the Raavad is dan lekaf zechus those who err, the Rambam does not… CS, be very very very careful.“Funny you say that because there definitely is place to say that in either case. Sdei chemed and Abarbanel say the preferable option is from the dead. Rashi and medrash say moshiach will be revealed and then concealed before he is finally revealed. We were discussing SPECIFICALLY the Rambam which i doubt you have studied much in depth yourself if you write so dismissively.”
Nowhere does it say it’s the preferable option. Abarbanel keeps it as a possibility. BTW, most rishonim hold Moshaich cannot come from the dead, based on their arguments with Christians. (Many chabadniks will answer that was only to win the argument, but really they held otherwise. This is disingenuous, dishonest, and dumb.) Rashi says that if Moshiach comes from the dead he will be Daniel (not someone like Daniel, but Daniel.) Either way, if Mashiach comes from the dead, do you really think that of all the dead people in all of yiddishkeit, the Rebbe is the greatest of them all???? (Not just Nosi Hador, which I can buy, unlike Rso, but Nosi Kol Hadorois?????) I would think Dovid Hamelech, R Akiva, R Shimon Bar Yochai, Chizkiyahu (who almost made it) etc etc, not the Rebbe.
(BTW, the common answer is that it has to be someone from this dor, even if he comes from the dead, but 1- there’s no source for that anywhere, in fact by the Gemara of Daniel it seems the opposite, and 2-in another few years the Rebbe’s Dor will have passed lekol hadayois. Do you think for a second that any meshichist will give up their belief in the Rebbe? not in amillion years they won’t.)Furthermore, The Rebbe clearly says that MOSHIACH CANNOT COME FROM THE DEAD (I brought the source earlier). Thus, the “still alive” crazies are at least more intellectually honest than the min hameisim’s. Furthermore, the Rebbe said numerous times “THE HALACHOS OF MOSHIACH ARE LIKE THE RAMBAM” So if it doesn’t fit the Rambam, than according to Chabad it’s wrong!!!!
Anyways, CS, don’t you see how intellectually dishonest this is? Normal Halacha is to learn the Rambam and to see what he says and understand it based on the sugyois. What you and other meshichists are doing is deciding out of nowhere that the Rebbe is Mashiach (the Rebbe never once said it, and accepting a tambourine from an obviously nutso woman does not constitute proof), and then twisting the Rambam to make your preconcieved conclusions fit! This is not Orthodox Judaism’s Halachic system, it is Reform’s! And twisting Gemaras, psukim, and rishonim to make a certain person Mashiach is not even Reform, it’s Christianity!
This is not disrepsect, it is an accurate depiction of the facts. The earliest christians were also shomrei torah Umitzvois. If I made fun of their proofs back then would it also be “disrespectful”?
The only difference between them is that The Rebbe was a Talmud Chacham, and J was a Rasha. But in regards to the early talmidim’s beliefs, it is exactly the same. Chabad is at a Crossroads – either stop with the Mashiach nonsense, or write yourself out of Klal yisrael!
And don’t show me R Ahron Soloveitchik’s letter that believing the Rebbe’s Mashiach is not kefira First of all not kefira doesn’t mean it’s correct or acceptable. Eating pork letayavon is also not kefira. Furthermore, I also think it isn’t kefira – at least not yet. But experience has shown that blindly believing in a dead person’s messiahship, and ignoring all indications to the contrary eventually leads to either kefira (Christianity) or mass disillusionment (Shabsai Tzvi.)
CS, while you are certainly a shomer torah umitzvois, and I would eat at your house unquestionably. But you have to realize that ignoring Hashem and focusing on the Rebbe will never lead to anything good. Just because you claim that you know the difference between the Rebbe and Hashem doesn’t mean your future decendants will. Neither will many Baal Teshuvas and less-learned people. There are sign of this happening in Chabad already, I posted them many times in this thread. Chabad is one of the best organizations in the Torah world, and does tremendous good work. This Moshiach thing is threatening to destroy it all, and with it the Rebbe’s reputation.
I suspect Sechel Hayashar would agree with me.
CS, I’m sorry if this was too harsh – I mean nothing personal at all, butsomething needs to be said to wake Chabad from this mishagas. And if I succeed in saving even one meshichist by writing this post, It was worse all this time. “Kol Hamatzel Nefesh Meyisrael”
BTW, CS, I’ve learnt this sugya beiyun. That’s why I can write so dismissively about anyone who tries putting the Rebbe in the Rambam.
(I saw a kuntres in Tzfas claiming the Rebbe is Moshiach Vadai, because he built the bais hamikdash-770! Hashem Yirachem! This is what happens when you decide on a result and then trample over the rest of the Torah to make it fit.)
“I suspect Sechel Hayashar would agree with me.”
With much of what you said. I don’t have the time to give word by word commentary on your post, and show exactly what I do and don’t agree with.If Moshiach was suppose to be born on Tisha Beov, the Rebbe was not born then.
Show me ANY gadol b’yisroe’ – past or present – who was born on Av 9!
It must be in a ruchniasdig sense, just like Moshe Rabbenu was rescued from the water-in-the-basket (like a new birthday) on Sivan 6, because of Mattan Torah.
Another reason why Moshiach is not known till his hisgalus, and he is a NEW being.Rso: it’s not an amazing rayeh like I mentioned. I’m just trying to bring out a point that halacha paskins according to the norm, how much people work and how the tevah of the world works.
“Sorry but that’s irrelevant. The Rambam is talking about physically seeing something. I don’t yet have ruach hakodesh but I don’t think it means physically seeing something.
And as far as the norm goes, the Rambam writes that we don’t say “perhaps” his eyesight is better than anyone else’s.”Again that’s exactly my point, תורה על הרוב מדבר” we paskin according to tevah, how most people are, and that is, that people only see with there eyes, not ruach hakodesh. Therefore if someone has ruach hakodesh even if he could see the situation it’s not considered עדות because we paskin according to the norm, and that is seeing with your physicalize. But even if the that’s the halacha it doesn’t take away from the fact that some tzdikim have ruach hakodesh, and can see stuff which a regular person can’t see.
So the same with not sleeping for more then 3 days, we paskin according to the tavah, and that is that people can’t stay up for more then three days, but it doesn’t take away the fact that tzdikim can do stuff even if Al pi tevah it’s impossible.But on the other hand, it’s very possible the maskirim wore talking about that the Rebbe didn’t go to sleep in bed, but possible he might of fell asleep in his chair, because I don’t think they would know that.
(I will try to find out)“But if he could prove that he can say the Sanhedrin won’t kill him.”
Where do you know this from, I haven’t seen anyone say this, and it doesn’t say that in the rambam, it just says we don’t assume so.
But either way it’s doesn’t change the point.“I want to point out how far you are brainwashed in your beliefs.”
Btw “brainwashed” is relative.
But so nice of you to call me that.“Do you see what you are doing? The MAZKIRIM said something and you just have to believe it because if you don’t, and you accept that the halachah of the Rambam applies to your rebbe as well – even though NO ONE is claiming that there is anything wrong with it applying to your rebbe – you feel you are doubting your rebbe.”
I’m not forced to accept what the maskirim say, I just don’t think the rambam is a reyah farkert.
I have no problem if you tell me that the maskirim say otherwise, I’m totally fine with that, and possibly change my opinion, I’m just telling you what I was told.“From this Rambam it is clear that keeping the 7 mitzvos is worthless without being mekabel.”
So let me ask you a few questions. Before I bother to give an explanation.
1. Nowadays when beis din can’t kill a yid for not doing a mitzvah, does that mean that now mitzvahs are worthless?
You can say your same statement regarding Jews, “from the fact that when a yid didn’t do a mitzvah he was killed is a rayeh that it’s worthless?
The same why they have a chiyuv to be mekabel we have a chiyuv to keep our mitzvahs. No?2. Why do they have a chiyuv to keep mitzvos isn’t Torah and mitzvos only for yeddin? תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהלת יעקב not to the goyim?
@Neville ChaimBerlin
“I will say though that what Chossid is implying about shaving being a more extreme heter than being mevatil the mitzvah of sleeping in the Sukkah is completely absurd. The heter of not sleeping in the Sukkah is actually explicitly cited as a retroactive heter (a psak made in response to masses being meikel with no heter) in the S”A. You have no proof that bochrim being clean shaven for bal gaavah reasons is a retroactive heter. We don’t posken, like Chabad I believe does, that there’s a problem of lo yilbash in shaving the face, so it’s not a kulah by us. Sleeping in the Sukkah, on the other hand, all hold is a d’oraysa.”When it’s raining outside to you eat and sleep in the sukkah or you go inside? I don’t know, but guessing that you go inside and rely on the retroactive hetter, even though the Rama says we should be machmir.
I think you should learn some shulchon aruch, gemorah, and the sicha, before we come to conclusions.
“The reason it’s getting so much discussion here and because it is quite possibly the only example of a group claiming that being mevatel a mitvah d’oraysa is a chumrah.”
The first the question is, are we bieng מקיים a מצוה through sleeping in the sukkah or just an an eisur not to sleep in the sukkah?
(See צפנת פענח on the רמב”ם ה’ סוכה פ”ו ה”ב.)And If it’s a chiyuv deoreisa to sleep in the sukkah then how can do we explain this Gemorah?
סוכה דף נ”ג עמ’ א’,
תניא אמר ר’ יהושע בן חנניה כשהיינו שמחים שמחת בית השואבה לא ראינו שינה בעינינו כיצד שעה ראשונה תמיד של שחר משם לתפלה משם לקרבן מוסף משם לתפלת המוספין משם לבית המדרש משם לאכילה ושתיה משם לתפלת המנחה משם לתמיד של בין הערבים מכאן ואילך לשמחת בית השואבה.
(@Rso btw from the המשך הגמרא you see your question you asked on me.)If It’s a chiyuv to sleep in the sukkah then they wore furced to go to sleep? ( Which means they would have to leave the ezorah and go to sleep in the sukkah חוץ לעזרה). Why didn’t they?
From this Gemorah the Rebbe brings a rayeh that sleeping is a פרט which is nichlal in the mitzvah תשבו כעין תדורו not a separate inyen, so the chachomim wore מקיים the mitzvah of תשבו כעין תדורו by eating and drinking in the sukkah , even without sleeping, because that’s the real chiyuv deoreisa of תשבו כעין תדורו, so my them not sleeping wasn’t being mevatel a mitzvah deorysa. So even if someone doesn’t sleep in the sukkah (or sleeps with a heter) he was מקיים מצות ישיבת סוכה בשלימות just like the תנאים.
(Btw from here we can answer why we don’t make a brocha on sleeping in the sukkah, because it’s nichlal in the תשבו כעין תדורו of eating.)With this the Rebbe explains his question how is it possible that a reason of tzar according to penimius hatorah be bestirah to niglah detorah.
So from all the above, we see that sleeping in the sukkah is not an mitzvah deorysa rather if you’re going to sleep you should do so in the sukkah because תשבו כעין תדורו. But you’re מקיים מצות ישיבת סוכה בשלימות even without sleeping.
And we see from the Rama that where he came from, אשכנזים that they wore not נוהג so sleep in the sukkah, only the medakdekim wore, and he writes in the end you should be machmir if you can (even after the explanations of tzar).
רמ”א סימן תרל”ט סעיף ב’
הגה: ומה שנוהגין להקל עכשיו בשינה שאין ישנים בסוכה רק המדקדקין במצות יש אומרים משום צינה דיש צער לישן במקומות הקרים [מרדכי פ’ הישן] ולי נראה משום דמצות סוכה איש וביתו איש ואשתו כדרך שהוא דר כל השנה ובמקום שלא יכול לישן עם אשתו שאין לו סוכה מיוחדת פטור וטוב להחמיר ולהיות שם עם אשתו כמו שהוא דר כל השנה אם אפשר להיות לו סוכה מיוחדת:
So we see from here it’s a question of chumrah to sleep in the sukkah. Whether you should be makpid or not to be machmir, even though you have reasons to be exempt.
(And btw to those tayning that I think rso “if is a minheg that I will accept it, but it’s totally wrong to justify it”, we see from the Rama himself that he justifies a minheg that he had. So I don’t get why people are having a problem with the Rebbe justifying a minheg, Aderabeh the Rama doesn’t seem to accept to just like that, rather finds away to justify it.)
The Rebbes asks even we say it’s just a chumrah why wore the rabbeim not makpid in it, we see that the rabbeim wore makpid not to even drink water out of the sukkah, and even on shmini atzres, and even if it’s raining, so why wore they not makid to sleep in the sukkah?
So the explanation is, ווי קען מען שלאפן אין מקיפים דבינה? How is it possible to sleep when there is such crazy oirios in the sukkah, which is a geder of tzar. the way I understand the explanation is, that they couldn’t overcome the tzar of sleeping in the sukkah because it’s an inyen ruchni but tzar of an inyen gashmi it is possible to overcome, so that’s why they wore makpid in sukkah even if they had tzar gashmi like rain….. but not tzar ruchni.So it’s not justifying being mevatel a mitzvah deorysa. Rather a chumrah.
About the comparison to beards, it’s a least the same category as sukkah (definitely not worse) but I still didn’t go through the sugya of shaving well so i will go through it soon to see the opinions and what exactly is the heter. Or if you can explain it to me it will be awesome.
And btw from the safer הדרת פנים זקן you can see that many gedoilim say to wear a beard, (I think even bochurim) check it up and for the names.
(next time I get ahold of the safer I will try bring the names).Chossid:
You’re making (at least) two big mistakes.
1) If someone will sleep, it’s a chiyuv to do so in the sukkah.
The Lubavicher “minhag” is to sleep outside of the sukkah.
2) The R’ma is specifically talking about when/where it’s cold, or married men.
Lubavicher bochurim sleep in the house even when it’s nice outside.
Chossid: “When it’s raining outside to you eat and sleep in the sukkah or you go inside? I don’t know, but guessing that you go inside and rely on the retroactive hetter, even though the Rama says we should be machmir.”
“Retroactive heter”?! There is no retroactive heter if it’s raining and the rain ruins your food or disturbs your sleep. It is a halocho paskened openly by ALL poskim. The only “retroactive heter” is not sleeping in a sukkah when the weather and other physical considerations do not disturb, and that is where the Rema says that it appears to him that the reason people don’t sleep in a sukkah is…
That is a “retroactive heter”.Chossid to Neville: “I think you should learn some shulchon aruch, gemorah”
I’m sure we all should. But we should do it in a way that we look to see what the Shulchon Oruch and the Gemoro tell us. Not to try to find excuses for irrational acts and explanations.
Chossid: “If It’s a chiyuv to sleep in the sukkah then they wore furced to go to sleep? ( Which means they would have to leave the ezorah and go to sleep in the sukkah חוץ לעזרה). Why didn’t they?”
Because they wouldn’t have gone home to sleep if there was Simchas Beis Hasho’eiva any other time of the year either. That is the rule of תשבו געין תדורו. For the same reason someone who is traveling is not obligated to sleep in a sukkah.“From this Gemorah the Rebbe brings a rayeh that sleeping is a פרט which is nichlal in the mitzvah תשבו כעין תדורו not a separate inyen, so the chachomim wore מקיים the mitzvah of תשבו כעין תדורו by eating and drinking in the sukkah , even without sleeping, because that’s the real chiyuv deoreisa of תשבו כעין תדורו”
Did he really say that?! So he just ignores Rav Shulchon Oruch 5639 se’ifim 4 and 8?!
How far are you people allowed to distort things in order to prove that you are right?Chossid: “So from all the above, we see that sleeping in the sukkah is not an mitzvah deorysa rather if you’re going to sleep you should do so in the sukkah because תשבו כעין תדורו. But you’re מקיים מצות ישיבת סוכה בשלימות even without sleeping”
And exactly the same is true of eating! If you’re not going to eat a shiur of bread you are still mekayem the mitzva of sleeping in the sukkah bishleimus. But if you eat a shiur and you eat it outside the sukka you are being mevatel a mitzvas asei. And if you sleep outside a sukkah the shiur of sleeping, which is even the smallest amount, you are mevatel the same mitzvas asei.“So we see from here it’s a question of chumrah to sleep in the sukkah. Whether you should be makpid or not to be machmir, even though you have reasons to be exempt.”
It is not a chumra! It is a halocho mefureshes despite all the twisting and turning you claim your rebbe did in this matter. To be exempt you have to have a VALID reason to be exempt, and the Rema searched until he found one. And the reason of having tzaar because you’re not having tzaar is not considered valid by anyone who is not a brainwashed lubavicher. I repeat: NO ONE!“So I don’t get why people are having a problem with the Rebbe justifying a minheg, Aderabeh the Rama doesn’t seem to accept to just like that, rather finds away to justify it”
The problem is that the Rema’s justification fits in with the sevoro of תשבו כעין תדורו as brought in the Gemoro. Your rebbe’s justification does not, and it would have been better had he left it as a minhag without empty rationalizations.(See צפנת פענח on the רמב”ם ה’ סוכה פ”ו ה”ב.)
Just to point out, the Sicha says that the Alter Rebbe doesn’t Paskin like that Rogatchover, but that doesn’t change the rest of the answer you gave.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.