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” (Although there are stories where people asked for promises from various contemporary Gedolim / Rebbes and were told if you want a promise, not just a Brocha, you can only find that by lubavitch. Don’t know if this is helpful because I don’t know by heart where to find it amongst the thousands of others, I just remember the story itself. But as it’s relevant I thought to mention.)”
no, not real helpful since I highly doubt it ever happened. Sorry.
The Rebbetzin did dress tznius, and I would like to point out that saying loshon hara (in this case motze shemra) about someone who specifically tried to stay out of the public eye is certainly assur, and is in no way letoieles.
Think about going to the Ohel to ask mechila.She was tznius in the original sense of the word – avoiding publicity and exemplifying kvoda bas melech pnima.
ChabadShlucha – I need to respond about a much older post.
Firstly, you started this thread to address litvishe taanois that Chabad are koifrim. I demonstrated that their suspicions are not without basis, at least in regards to the meshichistin.
You said
Now we in lubavitch are the last ones to rush to do that and we take it very seriously.This is exactly the problem! Chabad should be the first to jump out to protect the rebbe’s name! The fact that they don’t implies shtika kehoidaah! When avoda zara – or avoda zara like statements enter the mainstream with nary a word of protest, it brings churban to klal yisrael! You might claim to know it’s not avoda zara, but so did the dor of enosh. When you can go to chabad simchas without ever hearing the name of Hashem, only the Rebbe, when everything is addressed to the rebbe, when kids are encouraged to kiss a picture of the rebbe everyday, when kids only hear about the Rebbe’s yeshuos, YOU may know it’s not avoda zara, but do you think the next generation will???? Remember, J’s followers did not consider him a god, it was their kids and grandkids who did. And the way things are going, if Chabad doesn’t do anything, it’s headed in the same direction.
and
Finally, it is quite a jump to say that because you can name one person who wrote something outrageous, the whole lubavitch needs to do some serious purging because we have a serious festering problem within. One individual who recanted does not equal a festering lubavitcher kefira problem cvs.First, CS, we have no clue of it was recanted! Second of all if the Yated, Ami or Mishpacha, would put a picture of a gadol and write “Hu Elokeinu” they would be boycotted and have to close down the next day! Certainly no one would let them into their homes, even if they apologized.
Yet Beis Mashiach does the same thing, Meshichist Chabad says “Meh, just don;t do it again” and they keep selling thousands of copies! CS, let me tell you, this would not happen in ANY other frum community
And that’s why I left lubavich. The misnagdim are right – many chabadniks, even if not kofrim, have no problem with language that borders on kefira. And that’s a huge problem.
edited
CS – So now I have to clarify a very important point – “The Rebbe Runs The World”
This is not true!
Everywhere in chasidus and prechasidus, a tzaddik only has power when two conditions are met:
1) In regards to something the Tzaddik achieved during his life
2) In regards to talmidim who tie themself to the Tzaddik.Thus, the Rebbe has full control over his talmidim, both in life and in death, because he had full control during his life. Thus any person who wants to get close to the rebbe has to first become a talmud of him,
This is why R Nachman insisted you give money to him and go to Uman – by doing that you show you are his talmud so he can intercede on your behalf.
Thus the Rebbe has complete control over anything that affects what he did in his life, and over his talmidim. But he has no control over anyone who doesn’t follow him!
So saying the Rebbe runs the world is incorrect.
THIS IS A PRIMARY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A REBBE AND HASHEM AND A BEN GUF AND EIN SOF.
(Btw, with this you can understand the Sicha of Atzmus, and the footnote, that the reason a Tzaddik even has such powers over his talmidim and that they can ask him to intercede is just like the Rebbe is Mevutal to Hashem, the Talmidim are mevital to him, and Chad Hu, so in this aspect Hashem gave over this power to a Rebbe, becuase it’s not an atzmui, ratherthe talmud is one with the Rebbe so when he asks the Rebbe it’s like asking himself, and the Rebbe is CHad with Hashem in the aspect that Hashem gives him the power to be goizer in the talmidim who are mevutal to him. But not that the Rebbe is atzmus cha”v)
Username – You still have not answered my question re: the end of the Sukkah Sicha, where chassidim can be soimech on the tzaar of the Rebbe.
CS -” Vehu Yegaleinu” It does not mean that the Rebbe is Mashiach, If it did, then the Rebbe’s Moshiach would be the frierdicke Rebbe – he’d have a different mashiach than all of us,
(Many Chabadniks answer that whenever the Rebbe said “Friedkier Rebbe” he was referring to himself. But that’s a gross simplification. In actuality, he was refering to the Freidiker Rebbe, because he was the Rebbe’s rebbe. But Chassidim apply whatever the Rebbe said on the Friediker Rebbe to the Rebbe, because he’s our Rebbe.)
Rather vehu tegaleinu is referring to an Arizal who asks that the gemara promises a reward of seeing the Geula for many mitzvois. He asks, how can that be true, many people have kept those mitzvos but were niftar? So he answers that before techiyas Hamaysim, tzadikim who kept those mitzvois will have techiyas hameysim before the geula.
With this, we can explain what will happen when mashiach comes “Veyasu Kulam Aguda Achas”. When Mashiach comes, all the talmidim of each tzadik will line up behind his tzaddik. For example, all the Breslovers will line up behind Rav Nachman, All Sefardim behind Rav Ovadia etc, and those tzadikim will line up behind their Rebbe – Rav Ovadia behind Rav Ezra Attias, Rav Nachman behind Rav Baruch etc, and their rebbe behind his rebbe, and so on until Moshe Rabeinu, who will line up behind Mashiach,
Thus, when Mashiach comes, the Rebbe will be resurrected and lead his talmidim to the geula, and he’ll be behind the Riyatz, and he’ll be behind the Rashab etc etc.
And that’s how Vehu Yegaleinu applies to us in regards to the Rebbe, and to the Rebbe in regards to the Friyidiker.
“When Mashiach comes, all the talmidim of each tzadik will line up behind his tzaddik. ”
Thanks YR, I don’t know who explained that to you in this way, but I was taught the same way.
“But we don’t take cutting out lightly at all. ”
Yeah, that’s why we had a problem with the Call of the Shofar cult. We should be much quicker to throw people and ideas out, there’s a reason why Call of the Shofar targeted Chabad and was successful.
CS: “Although there are stories where people asked for promises from various contemporary Gedolim / Rebbes and were told if you want a promise, not just a Brocha, you can only find that by lubavitch”
Surely not “various” contemporary Gedolim but all of them thought that way!
Don’t be ridiculous.
(CS wrote about the Rebbetzin.)
I am so proud of myself that I said I wasn’t going to get involved in the topic and I have been able to control myself! Just though I’d let you all know.
Syag: “There are 3 people I can think of who were very respected and wrote sforim and/or books and gave lectures and were held in high regard. When they suddenly made claims that did not shtim with Hashkafa or proper halacha”
Who are the three?
Yes we know that. (Although there are stories where people asked for promises from various contemporary Gedolim / Rebbes and were told if you want a promise, not just a Brocha, you can only find that by lubavitch. Don’t know if this is helpful because I don’t know by heart where to find it amongst the thousands of others, I just remember the story itself. But as it’s relevant I thought to mention.)
Let me guess where you can find this story(ies)
In a Lubavitcher Sefer/book
CS: “When judging you have to hear the full picture and I don’t”
True. But that’s only when judging the person who said it. When a statement is clear apikorsus, as that “Hu Elokeinu means the rebbe” statement is, you don’t need the full picture to announce that you yourself, and your group of chassidim, are disgusted by it.
CS, The Klei Yokor says that Yaakov Avinu could not reveal the time of redemption because if people know that it will not be in their time, they stop hoping, be meyaesh, give up and forget that they are in galus and will not do anything to bring it and thereby they are postponing it more.
Cs
I read it again and this was the jist of it
You can want moshiach to come but if you want him to come now you better be completely ready spiritually
“I don’t think that’s the Rebbes approach. I only know of one person the Rebbe ousted, maybe two. ”
Two come to mind immediately, Shlomo Carlebach and Zalman “Shalomi” Schechter. There are others who are not as well known, several Shluchim thrown out by Merkos L’Inyonei Chinuch well before 5754. One in Florida, one in Ohio, and possibly a few more.
At risk of sounding crude, I’m going to say this anyway. The Rebbe wasn’t the fluffy and fuzzy character portrayed on JEM clips lovingly giving out dollars to all those who came. The Rebbe had principles, very storong ones. The Rebbe was absolutely uncompromising on his stances, and did not back down. When (some) Chassidim sang a niggun with words the Rebbe didn’t approve of, implying the Rebbe was Moshiach, the Rebbe was outraged, and said he wouldn’t come back into the Shul, until Mazkirim promised that it wouldn’t happen again. The Rebbe was similarly outraged at SBV when he came out with his infamous book, and forbade him from ever writing about Moshiach again, in very harsh terms.
When HaTikvah was sung at a dinner of Tomchei Tmimim, the Rebbe withdraw his Nesius from the Yeshiva.
There are many more such examples, but you can see how the Rebbe was unflinchingly intolerant of problematic conduct. One can only imagine the Rebbes reaction to much of what is going on in Lubavitch today, and to the Call of the Shofar episode.
“We dealt with the call of the shofar too.”
No, we did a horrible job taking care of it, and only a few Rabbonim and Mashpiim had the courage to stand up against it. It took a long time until everyone agreed on it.CS, I think you may have bought the image we often sell to Mekurovim about a fluffy and fuzzy Rabbi, with a silky long beard who loves everything and everyone unconditionally, no questions asked. This is a disgrace of everything the Rebbe stands for.
Once again, I apologise in advance if my words have hurt you, I have nothing against you, it’s the false ideology that I hate.
@ Syag
Things where very different before the war, and right after as well.
My guest this past Shabbos was telling me the the Rom Brothers (publishers of the Vilna Shas) where selling 80 Shassim per year. Worldwide.
It was very difficult for Benai Torah to get married. Rav Chaim Oizer used to stand up for crippled women. When asked about this he replied that they are probably married to Talmidei Chachamim.
Almost none of the women covered their hair.
There was a Rebbetzin of a famous Rosh Yeshiva who had a TV in their home.
We have a lot to be grateful for.
אל תדין את חבירך עד שתגיע למקומו
@ username
” I mean, I have a lot of friends in NY, and the Mishne Halachos never visited them, so you can imply that the Mishna Halachos viewed the Rebbe higher than he viewed my friends. Now it obviously didn’t make the Mishna Halachos the Rebbe’s Chossid, and it wouldn’t surprise me to know that he argued on the Rebbe. But it shows that he viewed the Rebbe as a Gadol (he did write Zatzal after the Rebbe’s name).”
It shows nothing of the sort. Nobody disputes that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe had a very wide reaching influence. This itself is reason enough for Gedolai Yisroel to visit / respond.
@ Yeshivishrockstar
“Username – You still have not answered my question re: the end of the Sukkah Sicha, where chassidim can be soimech on the tzaar of the Rebbe.”
I have alluded to this very point twice. This is the very part of the sicha Username omitted.
Notice that there was also no adequate responses to the the issues of:
-Doersh el HaMaitim. Making hishtadlus to communicate with the dead is assur (the quote from שבחי הארי” was mere misdirection).
-The Idea that it is somehow a greater fulfillment in the Mitzva of Kavod to fantasize that ones Rav is the Tzadik of the Tanya
-The Idea that it is somehow legitamite to play fast and loose with Halacha to justify minhagim.You still have not answered my question re: the end of the Sukkah Sicha, where chassidim can be soimech on the tzaar of the Rebbe.
I just looked through the Sicha, and didn’t find where the Sicha says that. Can you point which Syif? The only thing that I could find that sounds similar is a previous point, where the Rebbe says that the Rabbeim didn’t sleep in a Sukkah since they felt the holiness there. And since Chassidim generally tried imitating their Rebbe, the inability to do so would cause them (emotional) distress. So even according to that point, sleeping in a Sukkah would cause Chassidim some kind of distress, and that distress Paters them from sleeping in a Sukkah.
But that wasn’t the final answer. The final answer was that pain freeing you from sleeping in a Sukkah is the guilty feeling.
Non-political-you are correct that things were different then. My mother also did not cover her hair at first but im lost on your oint. I am extremely grateful for everything we have, and i was not judging anyone. You see im the one who is willing to accept less than perfection in leaders. Im the one who lauds their status despite iweaknesses. I just dont understand nor can i condone whitewashing and outright fabrication of facts to make people into something they aren’t. Especially when their greatness lies in their humanity.
“the Call of the Shofar episode”
Can someone please fill me in what that episode was and what lubavich had to do with it?
Doersh el HaMaitim
See the Minchas Elazar where he mentions that there’s a Gemara (Berachos 18b) – among others – that Shmuel and Zeiri went to Gan Eden and “Chatzer Maves” to ask his father and his landlord, respectively. He says that it’s unimaginable that Amoraim would violate Doresh El Hameisim over financial matters. Oh, and he also mentioned that the Arizal sent his students to prostrate themselves on graves of Tanayim and Amoraim so they would teach them Sisrei Torah. Look there at length.
The Idea that it is somehow legitamite to play fast and loose with Halacha to justify minhagim.
Look at the Minchas Elazar who justifies clapping on Shabbos, dancing on Shabbos, eating in a Sukkah in the rain, or not eating in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres. Or look up all the places where even the Shulchan Aruch says “… יש ללמוד זכות על”. It’s not rare. Lubavitch is by far not the only community which does those rare things, which, on a surface level, violates Halacha. See the Minchas Elazars I mention above. Oh, and Lubavitch isn’t the only community which doesn’t sleep in a Sukkah, other Chassidic communities did the same.
(Yes @rso, your Tayna isn’t on the etzem not sleeping in a Sukkah. Your Tayna is on the logic of the Moreh Hetter. But you’re not the only one here.)
It shows nothing of the sort. Nobody disputes that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe had a very wide reaching influence. This itself is reason enough for Gedolai Yisroel to visit / respond.
How often did the Mishneh Halachos visit leaders of Kefira movements (and write Zatzal after their name)? Did the Gerrer Rebbe visit the head of Reform of America because of his wide influence? Or how often did the Minchas Yitzchak write “הגה”צ” on leaders of Kefira movements, and quote him in his Shu”t?
username: “Lubavitch isn’t the only community which doesn’t sleep in a Sukkah, other Chassidic communities did the same”
Which other chassidic communities don’t sleep in a sukkah beshita?
Thus, the Rebbe has full control over his talmidim, both in life and in death, because he had full control during his life. Thus any person who wants to get close to the rebbe has to first become a talmud of him,
Sorry, I think DY would/should still call you out for Kefirah for saying that, because the issue isn’t about the Kamus of control, but the Eichus – saying that someone has “power” would be the same problem of Shituf (think about it, saying that the Sun has power over those who worship it is outright Avodah Zarah).
Rebbes don’t have any independent power, just as the sun doesn’t have any independent power. All the power that they have is what Hashem gives them.
Then he needs to see a doctor. I don’t believe any non-Lubavich Rov in the world will accept that one can consider not having tzaar as the cause of tzaar that patters one from a sukkah.
The real Shaalah is if psychological stress counts as Tzaar. Did you see anyone discussing this question?
Another practical Nafka Minah – someone lives in a safe neighborhood but is paranoid that he’s going to be mugged, so it’s extremely hard for him to fall asleep in the Sukkah. He has no psychological medications on him. Is he Chayav to sleep in a Sukkah? What if he’s in such a state that had this been his house, he would have left and moved into a next door bunker? Is he still Chayav to sleep in a Sukkah?
” Or how often did the Minchas Yitzchak write “הגה”צ” on leaders of Kefira movements, and quote him in his Shu”t?”
The Minchas Yitzchak also quotes the Rebbe regarding ships on Shabbos.
username: “The real Shaalah is if psychological stress counts as Tzaar. Did you see anyone discussing this question?…”
That’s not the real shailah. The real shailah, which we are disputing, is that someone who CAN fall asleep is pattur because he is embarrassed by that fact.
“The real Shaalah is if psychological stress counts as Tzaar. Did you see anyone discussing this question?”
Nobody agrees that this is the question. This whole psychological stress was fabricated in the first place. Even if you could prove that every Chabad chosid felt psychological pain by trying to sleep in the sukkah, that would only be because he was taught to feel that way. Nobody else is going to automatically feel mental stress when trying to perform a mitzvah. If your rebbeim have convinced you that you should then that’s terrible.
For the point about retroactively justifying minhagim, yeah I kind of have to give you that. You brought out examples from Chassidish minhagim, but everyone has this kind of thing. Eg. the fact that Litvish yeshivas don’t have mikvahs b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim are clean-shaven b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim could go years without saying korbanos b’shittah, etc.
Username: Reread the sicha, this time with the footnotes. The Rebbe explicitly says a chassid can be somech on his Rebbe’s tzaar.
Quote from Username: “Rebbes don’t have any independent power, just as the sun doesn’t have any independent power. All the power that they have is what Hashem gives them.”
Obviously.
My point was that Hashem didn’t give over his every power to the Rebbe. In my mind that’s still kefira. I have met lubavitchers who believe that the Hashem gave over all his powers to the Rebbe, and some say, even placed himself in the Rebbe’s guf, and THEY TELL ME it’s kefira, because I believe that Hashem has limits! It’s not that Hashem has limits, it’s that there are certain things Hashem doesn’t do, such as give over all his powers to a ben-adam.
This is why “The Rebbe runs the world” is kefira, plain and simple.
CORRECTION: They tell me it’s kefira not to believe that Hashem could place himself in the Rebbe’s guf, because then i believe Hashem has limits.
I’m really enjoying some in depth learning and challenging on the topic of can the Rebbe be bchezkas moshiach now. They don’t teach this stuff in school really it’s too touchy.
Of course not, because if a Chabadnik says outright the Rebbe is not Moshiach anywhere but on the internet he gets run out of Chabad.
But the Rebbe is not, cannot be, and will not be Moshiach. There’s a good reason why no nonlubavichers believe it. It doesn’t fit according to any halachos at all.
I’ve seen Chabadniks twist the Rambam more than the Christians twist the Torah to get their Moshiach to fit.
@ Syag
Thank you for clarifying
We still don’t quite see eye to eye on that. The title Nossi Hador implies more than tzadik hador or gadol hador. It is something akin to what Moshe Rabbeinu was, and applying that title to someone nowadays while meaning the same as tzadik hador is “cheating”.
Your right by saying “It is something akin to what Moshe Rabbeinu was”.
Which is exactly what it’s says in these two quotes brought before, that in EVERY generation (no matter how resent,) there is someone that has a nitzutz moishe atzmoi inside of him
וְאִתְפַּשְּׁטוּתָא דְּמֹשֶׁה בְּכָל דָּרָא וְדָרָא, כִּי מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִתְלַבֵּשׁ בְּכָל דּוֹר וָדוֹר בַּצַּדִּיק הָאֲמִתִּי שֶׁבַּדּוֹר.
And
והנה הצדיק שיש בו ניצוץ משה, הוא המנהיג את הדור וכל החכמים שבדורו טפלים לו, כי הם ענפים שלו
דגדול הדור נקרא כן שהוא ניצוץ משה רבינו ע”ה עצמו המתגלגל בכל דור(You stated before it could be more then one, but either way the musig of a “Moshe rabbeinu” which is the manhig of that dor exist in every generation.)
Are you upset that the Rebbe calls it nossi hador, or that he referred to the friediker Rebbe as nossi hador? Because it doesn’t seem to be made up, or “cheating”.
“There are many tzaddikim over all the generations about who I believe were way above ordinary, but I do not believe that any of them went 72 hours without any sleep at all because if it’s the halachah it applies to every Yid. That’s what I meant when I said that your rebbe claimed to believe in the primary of halachah.”
If you believe that tzadikim have Ruach hakodesh, and saw stuff which other people didn’t, how do you explain this rambam?
שְׁנַּיִם שֶׁהֵעִידוּ וְאָמְרוּ בְּמִזְרַח הַבִּירָה הָרַג זֶה אֶת הַנֶּפֶשׁ בְּשָׁעָה פְּלוֹנִית וּבָאוּ שְׁנַיִם וְאָמְרוּ לָהֶן בְּמַעֲרַב הַבִּירָה הַזֹּאת הֱיִיתֶם עִמָּנוּ בָּעֵת הַזֹּאת. אִם יָכוֹל הָעוֹמֵד בְּמַעֲרָב לִרְאוֹת מַה שֶּׁבַּמִּזְרָח אֵינָן זוֹמְמִין. וְאִם אֵינוֹ יָכוֹל לִרְאוֹת הֲרֵי אֵלּוּ זוֹמְמִין וְאֵין אוֹמְרִין שֶׁמָּא מְאוֹר עֵינֵיהֶם שֶׁל רִאשׁוֹנִים רַב וְרוֹאִין מֵרָחוֹק יֶתֶר מִכָּל אָדָם.:
Even if they can “see” or know what’s going on במזרח while they are standing במערב (which according to norm you can’t see it) they still will be considered עדים זוממים, because we go according to norm, but that doesn’t take away the fact, that they had ruach hakodesh, and saw stuff which regular people didn’t see.
Halacha goes according to nature, some tzdikim wore a little bit higher then nature.(This might not be an amazing rayeh but I’m sure you get the point, that Torah paskins according to the norm.)
So the same is with not sleeping.
“Chossid: “Where do you get this “unless” from?”
I get it from the Rambam where it is quite clear that even if a goy keeps 7 mitzvos he is doing nothing unless he is mekabel in front of three chaveirim. ”It’s quite clear it’s only to be considered a גר תושב.
So its not worth nothing.@ SH
“The Minchas Yitzchak also quotes the Rebbe regarding ships on Shabbos.”
This is in fact more relevant Thank you for living up to your name. I did not learn that teshuva. What does it say?
“Which other chassidic communities don’t sleep in a sukkah beshita?”
I already posted that information here.@ NCB
Eg. the fact that Litvish yeshivas don’t have mikvahs b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim are clean-shaven b’shittah, the fact that litvish bochrim could go years without saying korbanos b’shittah, etc.
None of the above are examples of playing fast and loose with Halacha. Mikvos, beards, and saying korbonos are not mandatory m’icker hadin.
There are times when a pre-existing, widespread practice seems to contradict Halacha, and it can be shown that Rabbonim were aware of the practice, and didn’t object to it. THEN, based on the above evidence (widespread practice w/o objection) subsequent Rebonim may propose a solution. Such a consideration is itself very much a part of the Halachic due process. And even still the proposed solution may well be rejected by Rabbonim who are contemporaries of the Rav who proposed it or the Rabbonim of subsequent generations.
“Of course not, because if a Chabadnik says outright the Rebbe is not Moshiach anywhere but on the internet he gets run out of Chabad.”
Not true at all. My friends know where I stand on this, and I know other Lubavitchers who think the same way. I haven’t been “run out” of Chabad yet.
SHY, most of your friends are meshichists?
DY, good diyuk. SHY is just saying what many of us already know – most chabadniks think the Rebbe is Mashiach, even if they aren’t delusional enough to say he’s alive.
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