The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

“No. My objection is, as I have written too many times already, that there the concept of Nossi Hador is not applicable to anyone alive or who was alive for the last thousands (I wrote hundreds in the past, but I think it’s in the thousands) of years. ”

From the mekoirios brought before its says that the concept of nossi hador is in every generation (no matter how resent)…… And you say “concept of Nossi Hador is not applicable to anyone alive or who was alive for the last thousands…of years”. Very interesting.

Furthermore, the mekoros that you quoted above that there is ONE tzaddik with a nitzotz are from a very few seforim, with the Zohar saying in at least one place (as someone pointed out in Tikunnim, I believe) that it is 600,000 neshamos in each dor.

I can explain if you wish (don’t think it will help)

“Yes, I do have names, and ask chassidim of many other rebbes and they may be willing to tell you names. Unlike you and others, however, I don’t believe in citing names in a public forum when I am sure the people whose names I would cite would not want to be cited! So just because I don’t cite names it doesn’t mean I don’t have the names.”
“No. I won’t supply names of people who would not want to be mentioned. I understand that you may therefore decide not to believe me, but I know that I am telling the truth.”

When people do stuff in public, and wore not embarrassed, because they know it’s true, and they’re doing it cuz it’s rights, I will mention their names, because they say it in public, that they hold of the Rebbe. And those are the names I quoted above.

If the people you hold of, say otherwise why are they embarrassed to say it publicly? Aderabeh if they think they are right, they should publicize their shita, that no one should make CV”s a mistake of holding of the Rebbe. And Lubavitch.
So maybe they are afraid to argue with so many Rebbeim and tamidei chavhomim that held of the Rebbe and Chabad chassidus??

“I don’t see a difference between telling a non frum person to do a mitzvah, and telling a goiy to do a mitzvah”
“To me the difference is obvious. There is a din or arvus when it comes to Yidden, but no din of arvus when it comes to goyim.
As to the Rambam you keep quoting, I have already replied that it doesn’t apply nowadays as we can’t do what the Rambam finishes off his halocho with, i.e. punishing those who don’t in beis din. Don’t you think it noteworthy that the Rambam writes specifically לכוף which means “force” them to keep mitzvos? Is that what the lubavicher rebbe said to do?”

No he said to tell them about it. Because obviously we can’t לכוף nowadays.

Just because bies din can’t force upon us nowadays ד’ מיתת בית דין therefore we shouldn’t tell yiddin to keep shabbos??? Or for that matter for us to keep shabbos??? Cs”v.

The same oibershther that told us to keep 613 and we have a chiyuv to keep them whether you get malkus or not, the same is with the goiyem, they have a chiyuv to keep 7 mitzvahs benei noach. And therefore we should encourage them to keep them.
whether you like it or not.

Surprise you say otherwise, and not only that you say, “stam mishigasim”

And just to note, why are you allowed to do business with goyeim, and hang around them for a whole day, and it’s not a problem of arvus, but when you meet a goiy in the street and tell them nicely about the mitzvos Hashem wants them do fulfill, it’s somehow a problem of arvus.??

“Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles, the same to is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.”
That doesn’t answer the question. If the Rambam paskened it as a halocho it means it applies to every Yid during his lifetime. This is something your rebbe believed as he always spoke about the primacy of halocho….

Did he ever take that shvuah? He just didn’t sleep those days.

And some how punked now you bring up that the Rebbe always spoke about the primacy of halacha, but in the past you say straight out that he didn’t respect halacha.

“And yes the Rebbe had a bed in is room, but that was only in the last five years after the rebbitzim past away.”
??? How does that show anything at all. 1. Before she passed away he went home every night so he didn’t need a bed in his office. 2. The person who told me the story was talking about the early 80s before the rebbetzin passed away”

I think we missed understood each other, my point was that the maskirim knew exactly when the went, home, and came to 770, and therefore knew how much he slept, besides the last 5 years they couldn’t tell, because he had a bed in his office.

After all this time I don’t think there is a point in continuing the conversation, because you are not willing to bring even one person that your shitas are based off, after claiming that “most gedoilim don’t hold of the Rebbe”, and your opinion is worthless, whether you personally hold of the Rebbe as a tzadik or not, he knew ten times more then you, (not my opinion, but the opinion of many talmidei chachomim, some which met him personally), and that’s besides the point that he had Ruach hakodesh, and did many miracles. And your not only arguing with the Rebbe himself but all the rebbiem, gedolim, and talmedei chachomim which held of him, Lubavitch, and Chabad chassidus.

Don’t get me wrong, your allowed to ask questions, but you can’t come to conclusions

Hashem should give you all the brochois.
Hatzlocha in all your endeavors.

@chabadshlucha
“Listen chossid unlike you who are still in the walls of Yeshiva, im in the Olam hazeh hagashmi, where I need to make life altering decisions many times and really do need urgent anders on a regular basis. Maybe it is a bit of a chutzpa of me, but I do try to make it a two way Street and devote myself fully to the Rebbe’s shlichus and be the Rebbe’s chossid as much as I can. So if it works, then the Rebbe is going along with it and I couldn’t be happier.”

I’m sorry but the Rebbe always said askir Al hatzion, I understand you’re on shlichus but they are many people on shlichus, includiny parents, and they don’t write to igros, if they have a question or in doubt they write to the ohel, or ask a asay lecho rav, not to a made up answer machine. It’s your right it’s a chutzpah.

“Well in that case you actually build my case. Thanks. The Rebbe would come back from the ohel many times saying the Frierdiker Rebbe said this.
Because he hade some connection with the frierdekir Rebbe, or Ruach hakodesh, and got an answer.

He didn’t wait around when he had urgent questions till the day the Frierdiker Rebbe would find a way to get back to him. ”

Oh yes he did, תש”י he didn’t except to be Rebbe right away, (and not only that he “threatened” chassidim which asked him to be Rebbe and he will run away if they continue) because the friediker Rebbe didn’t tell him to.

And guess what? Neither did the chassidim

Yes they did.

“That’s why they brushed aside the Rebbe’s protests that they could write the Frierdiker Rebbe and he’ll find a way and insisted on making the Rebbe our Rebbe”

Don’t get what you’re saying.

“Is it my fault I don’t have ruach hakodesh and can’t ask the Rebbe directly.”
Nope it’s not, but guess what we are in golus, and it’s not easy.

“If you wanna know something my personal svara is that the Rebbe was trying to accomplish the avoda b koach atzmo we are forced into now, way back in tof shin yud. The chassidim managed to push it off for another 42 years but here we go again. And this time there’s no new Rebbe till moshiach. We’re the final generation.”

?????

Chossid: “From the mekoirios brought before its says that the concept of nossi hador is in every generation (no matter how resent)…… And you say “concept of Nossi Hador is not applicable to anyone alive or who was alive for the last thousands…of years”. Very interesting.”
Are you intentionally misunderstanding what I write? Is that the only way that you can pretend to win the argument?
I said CLEARLY (is there a way of making things bold so I don’t have to use capitals?), and I stand by it, that the concept of “Nossi Hador” does not exist and has not existed for at least hundreds of years. I DID NOT SAY that there is something wrong with saying that someone is the greatest tzaddik of his generation or the gadol hador (although I don’t know who is really qualified to make such a statement). IT IS SPECIFICALLY THE CONCEPT OF “NOSSI HADOR” THAT I OBJECT TO, and none of the mekoros quoted cite that concept. Is that clear now?

“If the people you hold of, say otherwise why are they embarrassed to say it publicly? Aderabeh if they think they are right, they should publicize their shita, that no one should make CV”s a mistake of holding of the Rebbe. And Lubavitch.”
There are a number of valid reasons not to mention names of people who have the views that I quote, all of them true in different circumstances.
1. Some people out there don’t like these things being discussed in an open forum.
2. Some people out there don’t think it proper to use the internet period!
3. Some people out there feel that although much of what lubavich stands for today is a perversion of what they used to stand for, and that it has led many lubavichers to stray close to the line of kefirah, to attack them openly might push some over that line. So it’s more prudent to leave them alone and let them believe what they want.
4. Some people out there don’t want to upset relatives, friends and neighbors.
5. Some people out there are scared of a personal backlash from lubavichers who find out their views.
It is for these reasons that I won’t name anyone who has not made a public statement. That’s why I have no problem naming Rav Shach, as he obviously did not care about any of the above.

“The same oibershther that told us to keep 613 and we have a chiyuv to keep them whether you get malkus or not, the same is with the goiyem, they have a chiyuv to keep 7 mitzvahs benei noach. And therefore we should encourage them to keep them.
whether you like it or not.”
I answered that, and you even quoted my answer in your post! There is a chiyuv of arvus to get Yidden to keep the 613 mitzvos. There is NO arvus when it comes to goyim! I other words, paraphrasing what you wrote, the same Oibershter who told us to get Yidden to keep 613 mitzvos DID NOT tell us to get goyim to keep their 7 mitzvos unless we can get them to be mekabel to do so in front of three Jewish chaveirim. See the same Rambam that you quote.
If a ben Noach keeps 7 mitzvos but is not mekabel to keep them in front of three chaveirim, he is still chayav misa. Furthermore, he has to be mekabel to keep them because they are what Hashem told Moshe that they are what the original Bnei Noach kept. Telling a ben Noach, for example, not to kill because it’s wrong, is pointless. It’s all in the next halacha in the Rambam. And certainly telling a ben Noach not to eat eiver min hachai because it’s cruel to animals is plain wrong.

“And just to note, why are you allowed to do business with goyeim, and hang around them for a whole day, and it’s not a problem of arvus, but when you meet a goiy in the street and tell them nicely about the mitzvos Hashem wants them do fulfill, it’s somehow a problem of arvus.??”
Aha! I just realized why you keep on arguing the same thing even though I have answered it. “Arvus” does not mean mixing, as in dealing with goyim. It means mixing as in we are all one people and all are actions are “mixed” together, so every time any Yid does a mitzvah it affects all of us, and same is true with the reverse. So the simple way of explaining arvus is “responsibility”, as in someone who is an areiv, a guarantor of a loan.
We have no arvus for goyim therefore means that we are not responsible for their actions, and whether they keep their mitzvos or not does not affect us either for the good or the bad.

Chossid: ” after claiming that “most gedoilim don’t hold of the Rebbe””
Did I really say that? I don’t remember saying it. What I think I remember saying is that most of the chareidi world does not hold of the rebbe, as virtually none of the litvishe/yeshivishe world hold of your rebbe, and MANY right-wing chassidim don’t either.

“and that’s besides the point that he had Ruach hakodesh, and did many miracles. And your not only arguing with the Rebbe himself but all the rebbiem, gedolim, and talmedei chachomim which held of him, Lubavitch, and Chabad chassidus.”
Whoa! First, I don’t believe he had ruach haKodesh, or did miracles, so you’re proving me wrong by saying something I don’t believe.
Second, I am not arguing with all who held of chabad chassidus. I, for what it’s worth, also hold of chabad chassidus. I just don’t believe that the innovations over the last 70 years constitute chabad chassidus.
The Malochim consider themselves chabad chassidus, and they don’t hold of your rebbe or his innovations. So you see that not holding of the latter does not necessarily mean you don’t hold of the former.

“Don’t get me wrong, your allowed to ask questions, but you can’t come to conclusions”
If you don’t hold of someone you can come to conclusions. I would expect that you don’t hold too highly of Rav Shach, and I easily accept that. You are therefore justified in coming to logical conclusions about his views and actions even though you are not a tzaddik or a gadol.

“Hashem should give you all the brochois.
Hatzlocha in all your endeavors.”

Thank you. Vechain lemar.
I am confident that both of us mean those brochos!

Did you ever learn the sicha inside? A guilty feeling due to [mis]understanding sisrai Torah has nothing to do with it.

Yes I did, and that’s what it says. Look in the footnote there (62*)

והיינו דנוסף על צערו בכלל ממצבו הירוד [שאינו מרגיש האור המקיף שבסוכה (או שפתגם של אדמור האמצאי אינו פועל עליו כו)] – שמצער זה לא ינצל גם ע”י כניססו לבית – הרי המעשה השינה עצמה גורם לו צער היתכן שיכול לישון בסוכה בלי צער

And it’s the same idea in the Pnim.

In short, the idea is that a Lubavitcher Chossid would feel guilty about sleeping in a Sukkah, since sleeping in a Sukkah forces him out of denial – that he doesn’t feel the Makkif of the Sukkah, even after hearing about it from the Mitteler Rebbe. I can’t speak for everyone (and I personally happen to think that not everyone who wants to call himself Chabad can rely on our leniencies, but that’s for another rant), but I, personally, think that I’d feel guilty sleeping in a Sukkah.

So the Rebbe’s point is that guilt feeling is enough to Patur one from sleeping in a Sukka.

Now, this might not be so politically correct, but I hope they let it through: I know Chabad and any kiruv organization tends to sell this idea that a college girl who isn’t shomer shabbos or nagia, but decides to start wearing skirts (or take on any random single halachah) is doing a way bigger mitzvah than someone in Boro Park who is totally frum. I know you guys need to say this stuff for kiruv, but for the love of all things holy don’t actually start believing it!

We don’t say it because it’s a beautiful quote. We say it because it’s the opinion of the Tanya[1] , that being an “Oved Hashem” means fighting with oneself to go beyond what one’s used to.

Now I’m not denying that even Boro Park has it’s Tayvos, and even people in Boro Park aren’t Tzaddikim, and have to do Avoda to avoid sinning, but Boro Park clearly has less Tayvos than a college campus, or else it would be as forbidden to live in Boro Park as it is to attend college. And while even a Frum person in a Frum environment, can fight his Yetzer Hara and be an “Oved Elokim”, personal experience is that when you live in a Frum environment, it’s easy to coast.

But despite all that, and despite the advantage of doing Teshuva, one’s clearly forbidden to sin to become a “Baal Teshuva”, even though one can do Teshuva even after an Echteh VeAshuv[2]. The same way, one is absolutely forbidden to put himself in a Makom Nisayon by going to college or having unfiltered internet, and yet someone who does and controls himself may be an Oved Hashem more than one who’s just conventionally frum. Ultimately Schar VeOnesh is up to Hashem, and Hashem may give a working guy who learns Daf Yomi a way bigger Gan Eiden than to a a retired guy who learns five Blatt a day, simply because the first has to push himself more. Or a Tinok SheNishba who puts on Tefillin may be fighting his Yetzer Hara more by putting on his Tefillin for 5 minutes a day than I do by putting on Rabbeinu Tams.

And it’s kind of the same situation in Crown Heights. At the same time I’ll condemn (among my Lubavitch friends) the absolute Busha that there’s no communal pressure to be Frum in Crown Heights, and this communal enforcement is something that I do respect in the Yeshivish world, I’ll say that someone that actually stays Frum in such an environment does show a certain strength of character and Yiras Shamayim.

[1]. (Chapter 15)

ובבינוני יש ג”כ שתי מדרגות עובד אלהים ואשר לא עבדו ואעפ”כ אינו רשע כי לא עבר מימיו שום עבירה קלה וגם קיים כל המצות שאפשר לו לקיימן ותלמוד תורה כנגד כולם ולא פסיק פומיה מגירסא אלא שאינו עושה שום מלחמה עם היצר לנצחו ע”י אור ה’ המאיר על נפש האלהית שבמוח השליט על הלב כנ”ל מפני שאין יצרו עומד לנגדו כלל לבטלו מתורתו ועבודתו ואין צריך ללחום עמו כלל כגון שהוא מתמיד בלמודו בטבעו מתולדתו על ידי תגבורת המרה שחורה וכן אין לו מלחמה מתאות נשים מפני שהוא מצונן בטבעו וכן בשאר תענוגי עוה”ז הוא מחוסר הרגש הנאה בטבעו ולכן אין צריך להתבונן כל כך בגדולת ה’ להוליד מבינתו רוח דעת ויראת ה’ במוחו להשמר שלא לעבור על מצות ל”ת ואהבת ה’ בלבו לדבקה בו בקיום המצות ות”ת כנגד כולן אלא די לו באהבה מסותרת אשר בלב כללות ישראל שנקראו אוהבי שמו ולכן אינו נקרא עובד כלל כי אהבה זו המסותרת אינה פעולתו ועבודתו כלל אלא היא ירושתנו מאבותינו לכלל ישראל וכמ”ש לקמן. וכן אף מי שאינו מתמיד בלמודו בטבעו רק שהרגיל עצמו ללמוד בהתמדה גדולה ונעשה ההרגל לו טבע שני די לו באהבה מסותרת זו אא”כ רוצה ללמוד יותר מרגילותו ובזה יובן מ”ש בגמרא דעובד אלהים היינו מי ששונה פרקו מאה פעמים ואחד ולא עבדו היינו מי ששונה פרקו מאה פעמים לבד והיינו משום שבימיהם היה הרגילות לשנות כל פרק מאה פעמים כדאיתא התם בגמרא משל משוק של חמרים שנשכרים לעשר פרסי בזוזא ולאחד עשר פרסי בתרי זוזי מפני שהוא יותר מרגילותם. ולכן זאת הפעם המאה ואחת היתרה על הרגילות שהורגל מנעוריו שקולה כנגד כולן ועולה על גביהן ביתר שאת ויתר עז להיות נקרא עובד אלהים מפני שכדי לשנות טבע הרגילות צריך לעורר את האהבה לה’ ע”י שמתבונן בגדולת ה’ במוחו לשלוט על הטבע שבחלל השמאלי המלא דם הנפש הבהמית שמהקליפה שממנה הוא הטבע וזו היא עבודה תמה לבינוני. או לעורר את האהבה המסותרת שבלבו למשול על ידה על הטבע שבחלל השמאלי שזו נקרא ג”כ עבודה להלחם עם הטבע והיצר ע”י שמעורר האהבה המסותרת בלבו משא”כ כשאין לו מלחמה כלל אין אהבה זו מצד עצמה נקראת עבודתו כלל:

Which, if you think about it, parallels the famous Rambam:

וְאַל יְדַמֶּה אָדָם בַּעַל תְּשׁוּבָה שֶׁהוּא מְרֻחָק מִמַּעֲלַת הַצַּדִּיקִים מִפְּנֵי הָעֲוֹנוֹת וְהַחֲטָאוֹת שֶׁעָשָׂה. אֵין הַדָּבָר כֵּן אֶלָּא אָהוּב וְנֶחְמָד הוּא לִפְנֵי הַבּוֹרֵא כְּאִלּוּ לֹא חָטָא מֵעוֹלָם. וְלֹא עוֹד אֶלָּא שֶׁשְּׂכָרוֹ הַרְבֵּה שֶׁהֲרֵי טָעַם טַעַם הַחֵטְא וּפֵרַשׁ מִמֶּנּוּ וְכָבַשׁ יִצְרוֹ. אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים מָקוֹם שֶׁבַּעֲלֵי תְּשׁוּבָה עוֹמְדִין אֵין צַדִּיקִים גְּמוּרִין יְכוֹלִין לַעֲמֹד בּוֹ. כְּלוֹמַר מַעֲלָתָן גְּדוֹלָה מִמַּעֲלַת אֵלּוּ שֶׁלֹּא חָטְאוּ מֵעוֹלָם מִפְּנֵי שֶׁהֵן כּוֹבְשִׁים יִצְרָם יוֹתֵר מֵהֶם:

[2] As it says in Tanya chapter 25:

ואף ש”האומר אחטא ואשוב אין מספיקין כו'”, היינו שאין מחזיקים ידו להיות לו שעת הכושר לעשות תשובה, אבל אם דחק השעה ועשה תשובה אין לך דבר שעומד בפני התשובה

Which follows the Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 4:7):

ואף ש”האומר אחטא ואשוב אין מספיקין כו'”, היינו שאין מחזיקים ידו להיות לו שעת הכושר לעשות תשובה, אבל אם דחק השעה ועשה תשובה אין לך דבר שעומד בפני התשובה

What, that feeling guilty is called enough Tzaar to avoid sleeping in a Sukkah?

Yes, it’s total nonsense. You’re better off admitting that you don’t understand than repeating and believing this total krumkeit.

she used the latter expression

Mamash avodah zarah

But yes, if you don’t have any guilty feeling, you absolutely are obligated to sleep in a Sukkah.

Which is (almost?) everyone, yet nobody sleeps in the sukkah.

So I asked a chossid Chabad this, and he said that he’s mitztaer that he’s not mitztaer. So I told him to be mitztaer in the sukkah, since the sukkah isn’t what’s causing the tzaar. It’s an offene Rashi.

Total disregard for the actual halachic process. Sad.

@Rso and @DaasYochid

The Sukkah doesn’t have to cause Tzaar itself. It just can’t be an independent Tzaar (like thinking about dragging blankets while eating):

שהסוכה מצערתו כגון חמה או צינה או סירחה בדברים שסיכך בהן

Sun or cold doesn’t come from the Sukkah itself, and it Patturs one from sleeping in the Sukkah.

The only thing is, Tzaar can’t be something that won’t stop by moving inside (like Aveilus, one’s Meis won’t come back to life if he moves outside the Sukkah). On the other hand, sleeping in the Sukkah is causing me Tzaar, since when I’ll try to sleep in the Sukkah, the Sukkah itself is constantly reminds me that I’m an Oisvarf. In the house, it’s not in my face.

“I”M STILL INTERESTED TO HEAR IN WHAT WAY CHABAD CHASSIDIM RESPECT THEIR REBBE MORE THEN OTHER YIDDEN RESPECT THEIR RABBONIM. ”
“A Beinoni is someone who is in such control of himself that he never sinned and won’t sin, but has to continue fighting the Yezter Hara the whole time.”

Seriously? That is the “proof” that we dont respect our tzaddikim and gedolim!? Because we are honest about who they are?! Did you know paroah told the mitzrim he didnt go to the bathroom and they believed that, does that mean they had even more respect for their leader?

” “Tznius and yiras shomayim are things that are all around and permeate every aspect of our lives…” Yes, yes, yes. BUT you can’t have kedusha IF you don’t have tznius in clothes.”

Okay, so here’s the problem. You may not understand this but Hashem doesn’t share his “books” with us. We don’t know which humans have sinned, we don’t know which have not. How you can even have the chutzpah to think you can determine your rebbes cheshbon in shamayim by looking at him and listening to stories is a huge disrespect to Hashem Who ALONE knows the inner thoughts of us all. Period.

Our gedolim and rabbeim are HOLY yidden, not because we think they are god, super human, or free of sin (something we would have NO way of knowing), but because they surround themselves in kedusha. Their yeshivos, offices, kehillas, speech, approach to others is filled with kedusha. And their homes are surrounded by and filled with kedusha thanks to the akeres habayis who is ALWAYS  the personification of tznius is behavior and dress.

Did you ever meet the wives of our gedolim, did you ever read stories about them or talk to people who knew them? These women, the akeres habayis of our gedolim made sure their husbands were surrounded by kedusha. Which, as you see in the quote above above, is the souce of yiras shomayim and cannot be found where there is a lack of tznius.

Chossid:
“This igros thing that you expect answers from the Rebbe is garbage. The Rebbe said on the friediker Rebbe that HE will find away to answer, not that YOU find him away
to answer,”

Listen chossid unlike you who are still in the walls of Yeshiva, im in the Olam hazeh hagashmi, where I need to make life altering decisions many times and really do need urgent anders on a regular basis. Maybe it is a bit of a chutzpa of me, but I do try to make it a two way Street and devote myself fully to the Rebbe’s shlichus and be the Rebbe’s chossid as much as I can. So if it works, then the Rebbe is going along with it and I couldn’t be happier.

It’s ironic, that because you live in “Olam hazeh hagashmi”, you make an extra effort to communicate with the rebbe. you don’t see the irony?

Syag lchachma, agreed, although I’m sure there are live rebbe that refer chabadshlucha to the rebbe igros.
The whole thing is a really strange Rorschach where they end up doing what they would have in the first place.

we can say the Rebbe is running the world

No, we can’t. It’s avodah zarah.

have had Rabbanim tell me to write to the Rebbe on certain issues.

Just to be clear, that’s not the type of rav you should be asking. You should ask someone normal.

CS: “The Rebbe pretty much vowed he would not go to gan Eden…”

There are a lot of litvaks and Satmarers out there who think that that vow was totally unnecessary…

But seriously, when did he vow this?