The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

There’s a general klal that you don’t need as strong of a Svara to legitimize an existing Minhag than to innovate a new one.

It’s debatable how old this “minhag” is…

Besides, there are weak sevaros and then there are weak sevaros. This doesn’t work within any normal system of determining or even defending a halacha.

Chossid: “Your only problem is that you don’t like that the Rebbe associated the friediker Rebbe as a nossi hador (and the same goes on himself).”
No. My objection is, as I have written too many times already, that there the concept of Nossi Hador is not applicable to anyone alive or who was alive for the last thousands (I wrote hundreds in the past, but I think it’s in the thousands) of years. Had you said you believed that your rebbe or the Rayatz were the greatest tzaddikim of their generations I would not have agreed but I wouldn’t have argued the point. It’s the making up of a term and applying it (at least by implication) to oneself that I object to because I have heard lubavichers argue that clearly their rebbe is the Nossi Hador as no one else has even laid claim to the title.
Furthermore, the mekoros that you quoted above that there is ONE tzaddik with a nitzotz are from a very few seforim, with the Zohar saying in at least one place (as someone pointed out in Tikunnim, I believe) that it is 600,000 neshamos in each dor.

““Did you know that there are Rebbes alive today shlita who spend hours EVERY DAY dealing with chassidim and others?”
Very possible, but do you have any names?”
Yes, I do have names, and ask chassidim of many other rebbes and they may be willing to tell you names. Unlike you and others, however, I don’t believe in citing names in a public forum when I am sure the people whose names I would cite would not want to be cited! So just because I don’t cite names it doesn’t mean I don’t have the names.

“I don’t see a difference between telling a non frum person to do a mitzvah, and telling a goiy to do a mitzvah”
To me the difference is obvious. There is a din or arvus when it comes to Yidden, but no din of arvus when it comes to goyim.
As to the Rambam you keep quoting, I have already replied that it doesn’t apply nowadays as we can’t do what the Rambam finishes off his halocho with, i.e. punishing those who don’t in beis din. Don’t you think it noteworthy that the Rambam writes specifically לכוף which means “force” them to keep mitzvos? Is that what the lubavicher rebbe said to do?

“Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles, the same to is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.”
That doesn’t answer the question. If the Rambam paskened it as a halocho it means it applies to every Yid during his lifetime. This is something your rebbe believed as he always spoke about the primacy of halocho (Remember when he had people pasken at a farbrengen that the Israeli government was forbidden to give back land, and he expected that the fact that a halocho had been paskened would affect the outcome?) The lubavicher rebbe was certainly a Yid, so were he to make a shevua that he would not sleep for three consecutive days it would be a shevuas shov and he would be chayav malkus. One must therefore conclude that he slept at least a short time every three days, and on Sukkos he would have been chayav to sleep in a sukkah.

“And yes the Rebbe had a bed in is room, but that was only in the last five years after the rebbitzim past away.”
??? How does that show anything at all. 1. Before she passed away he went home every night so he didn’t need a bed in his office. 2. The person who told me the story was talking about the early 80s before the rebbetzin passed away. I could provide details but I don’t want to “out” anyone.

“NAMES PLEASE”
No. I won’t supply names of people who would not want to be mentioned. I understand that you may therefore decide not to believe me, but I know that I am telling the truth.

““Can I also guess that there are a lot of people who think otherwise who aren’t quoted?”
Very possible, if you can please name me some.
For some reason you don’t have any………….”
Sorry, but once again your conclusion is wrong. As above.

CS: “In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure.”

And I believe that in all communities keeping Shabbos, keeping kashrus, putting on tefillin, giving tzedoko, men wearing a yarmulke etc etc “is not necessarily an indication of” yiras Shamayim “but an indication of communal pressure”. That’s the way Hashem made the world and it is factored into the mitzvos. Why should tznius be any different?

Btw you write that you don’t find the tznius level of lubavicher chasunos any worse than any other. I have to differ. A few weeks ago I was at a lubavicher chasuna not in my home town, and the level of mixing of “chassidishe” lubavicher bochurim and avreichim with “chassidishe” lubavicher girls and women was something one does not see any simchah of any other chareidi (I’m not counting MO) group, chassidish or non-chassidish.

Perhaps you don’t find it objectionable when at least one of the sides is married. I do.

My two cents on this:
“In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure.”
I’m not a mind reader, but logically the last part of the above comment should have read “, but MAY BE an indication of communal pressure.”

I don’t know if CS didn’t fully ananlyze/proofread her post, in which case SH is likely correct and it was an innocent observation, or it was a “Freudian slip” stemming from CS’s feelings of superiority. Syag was right to protest the comment based on the condescending way it was worded and her experiences here, yet CS probably didn’t deserve the whip lashing either…

Mammale- thank you! I actually had considered calling you and golfer to weigh in on this.
Regarding the whip lashing…I don’t know. I would agree with you if it was just this comment but there have been too many degrading references to our Gedolim, learning, kehillos, Yiras shamayim, kavod HaTorah…you get the idea. But have no fear, she usually responds to these responses to her put downs with an “lol” , and a brush off about how I seem to misread everything she clearly states because how can someone without her level of hiskashrus really understand anything at all.
It’s a pela

Feeling guilty that you can fall asleep, which is a mitzvah, can be called tzaar and therefore patter you from sleeping? Doesn’t make sense.

Sorry, I don’t get your issue. Is it that why should one feel guilty about doing a Mitzvah? Because it is a very holy place, and you feel bad sleeping (which comes along with other things) in a holy place. So if my house was a Shul, I wouldn’t sleep there either.

But it’s a Mitzvah?

No. There’s no Mitzvah to sleep in a Sukkah. It’s to live in a Sukkah like we do at home. So because we sleep at home, we have to sleep in a Sukkah. But there’s no inherent Mitzvah to sleep in a Sukkah. And the same goes for drinking, or eating (except for the first night). The Mitzvah is to live there like you do at home. Since you eat and drink at home, you have to eat and drink in the Sukkah.

But all Seforim say to sleep in a Sukkah. The Mishna, Gemara, Rishonim, Shulchan Aruch?

Yes, because there’s a Mitzvah to sleep in a Sukkah like you sleep at home. And for hundreds of years, there were two classes of people:

1. People who really grasped the holiness of a Sukkah – and these were Tzaddikim who’s sleep was a different sleep (for example, Shivchei Ari says how the Arizal would learn deep Sisrei Torah while he slept), so for them there was no problem sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOraisa to sleep in a Sukkah.

2. The regular folk, who didn’t know the Sisrei Torah behind the Sukkah. So they obviously didn’t feel bad about sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOriasa to sleep in the Sukkah.

It’s just that due to Yeridas Hadoros on one hand, and the spread of Chassidus on the other (so that even relatively simple people have some understanding of what holiness a Sukkah has), that there’s this guilty feeling.

But yes, if you don’t have any guilty feeling, you absolutely are obligated to sleep in a Sukkah.

username, look at Shulchan Aruch Harav and tell me there is no mitzvah to sleep in the sukkah IF YOU INTEND TO SLEEP.

By the way, another example of such roundabout logic is the famous Minchas Elazar which allows clapping on Shabbos:

You’re not allowed to clap or dance on Shabbos, except for a Simcha Shel Mitzvah. So since a Tzaddik really feels the holiness of Shabbos, for him clapping and dancing becomes a Simcha shel Mitzvah, allowing him to clap on Shabbos.

So if one really feels the holiness of Shabbos, he’s feeling a Simcha Shel Mitzvah, allowing him to be lenient in a practical Halacha of Shabbos.

username, If I know I don’t eat lesheim Shamayim and I am a big megusham when it comes to food, would I be justified not to eat in the sukkah because I feel guilty eating there?

If you really feel guilty, and you know that eating not Lesheim Shamayim in a Sukkah is really bad, I could see a Sevara to say that.

Would I mechadesh such a minhag on my own? No. Not at all.

But then, if not for the existing Minhag, I (and most likely the Rebbe) would say to sleep in a Sukkah also.

Username: You didn’t address my issues, which are primarily in the end of the Sicha:

Here I am copy-pasting from my previous post
Quote from SH – Therefore, the Rebbe does as much as he can to resolve this apparent conflict.

I know. But the “as much as he can” wasn’t that great, as all those who can learn can attest. The tzaar is dubious (the Amaroyim didn;t have that tzar? If you answer that they were on a higher level so they could sleep there fine. But many answer that they didn’t know chassidus, which IMHO is kefira. Even according to them still dubious why the amorayim didn’t tell the am haaratzim not to sleep because of the tzaar)

And the end is the kicker – tzaar of not having the tzaar is just ridicoulous and not even good enough to patur as it needs to be tzaar of sukkah (why are all the chassidim supposedly who have the tzaar of not having tzar sleeping so comfortably in bed), and even worse, they can rely on their Rebbe”s tzaar, which is something who find in no Halacha EVER.

The sicha a poor shatnez of kabbalah and halacha.

“Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles to the same is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.”

Maybe he was a God??? (/sarc)

Or more likely the story is made-up.

“This igros thing that you expect answers from the Rebbe is garbage.”

No ffense Chossid, but you’re being more insulting to the Rebbe than CS is. At least CS writes respectfully and clearly. You just trash whoever disagrees with you illogically.

That’s why my language on you has been so tough these past few posts.

“Why is “Chabad Light” our problem, while “Modern Orthodox” is not yours?”

Bingo. He got my point. I wasn’t trying to give a defense for Chabad or any tznius problem. It’s just that that argument has always been a dead point for 2 reasons:
1) Claiming minhag Chabad has abjectly worse tznius than minhag Ashkenaz can only be accomplished by taking a selective census that includes Chabad Light for Chabad, but only includes the frummiest of Litvaks for us.
2) Claiming that Williamsburg chassidim are more tznius than Chabad might be true, but the Chabadniks haven’t really seemed to deny that. So, what point is trying to be reached? Admittedly, I haven’t read most of the posts about this thoroughly.

“I’m thinking he meant was that the halachic conditions of bchezkas moshiach etc only apply to someone alive but if someone comes from the dead than they would start over. ”

This actually makes sense. So you agree the Rebbe’s not halachically chezkas mashiach then?

“Listen chossid unlike you who are still in the walls of Yeshiva,  im in the Olam hazeh hagashmi, where I need to make life altering decisions many times…”
Ironic

Nu, Sechel, Chossid, Username: I think I’ve demonstrated that if an elokist is giving shiurim on chabad’s flagship website (albeit not on these specific views), when a litvak suspects chabad of kefirah, it’s not merely sinas chinam, but rather a chashash with basis. (Admittedly, this is true only of meshichists, but you can’t expect a litvak to know chabad politics.)

Chabad needs to make a cheshbon hanefesh, a kol koreh, and a huge purge,

CS,
“If sechel becomes a lubavitcher Rav one day I can see him saying something similar (that its a matter of hashkafa and not be willing to elaborate.)”
Firstly, I’m flattered, but in the fifth Chelek of Shulchan Aruch there’s a Seif that states that one who has spent too long on the Coffee Room is disqualified from being a Rov:)

What your Rov told you is something I wrote on one of these threads long ago, that even if you wish to believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach, (something that the Rebbe himself negtes, in a Haara in a Sicha, will post the MM later) it’s impossible to claim that he is, or ever was Chezkas Moshiach. Obviously, if he were to have a Techiya before everyone else, he could potentially fulfill those criteria, though, as I said, the Rebbe doesn’t seem to hold this way.

username: “The Rambam also says:
מי שאינו רוצה ליתן צדקה או שיתן מעט ממה שראוי לו בית דין כופין אותו ומכין אותן מכת מרדות עד שיתן מה שאמדוהו ליתן, ויורדין לנכסיו בפניו ולוקחין ממנו מה שראוי לו ליתן. וממשכנין על הצדקה ואפילו בערבי שבתות.
Should we apply the same Diyuk here? If a Beis Din can’t force someone to give Tzedaka, they shouldn’t try convincing them, because it says “Kofin” and not “encourage” or “convince”?”

How can you compare the two? Here, in the same perek, it says that a Yid is mechuyav to give tzedoko, so even though nowadays in most places beis din doesn’t have the power to enforce it, the mitzvah to give tzedoko, and the arvus involved in encouraging all Yidden to give tzedoko, still applies. In the case of forcing goyim to keep the 7 mitzvos the only statement of the Rambam is to force them to do so. And since that doesn’t apply nowadays, coupled with the fact that there is no arvus, the halacha is not applicable.

Furthermore, the Rambam continues that halocho by saying that the goy has to be mekabel to keep the 7 mitzvos in front of three chaveirim (not friends, but basically frum Jews) and then he is considered a ger toshav. Do we have a ger toshav nowadays? Do those who promote the 7 mitzvos “encourage” that they specifically accept all the 7 mitzvos in front of three chaveirim? Because if they don’t accept it that way, according to the Rambam, they are chayav misa even if they happen to keep those 7 mitvos. Have a look and see.

CS: “So if it works, then the Rebbe is going along with it and I couldn’t be happier.”

Just because “it works” it doesn’t prove anything. Avodah Zarah “worked” for some people, as did kishuf, but it was just as wrong as other things that don’t work.

Don’t get all riled up. I’m not comparing here. Just showing the falseness of your argument.

@ Username
“1. People who really grasped the holiness of a Sukkah – and these were Tzaddikim who’s sleep was a different sleep (for example, Shivchei Ari says how the Arizal would learn deep Sisrei Torah while he slept), so for them there was no problem sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOraisa to sleep in a Sukkah.

2. The regular folk, who didn’t know the Sisrei Torah behind the Sukkah. So they obviously didn’t feel bad about sleeping in a Sukkah, so they had the Chiyuv DeOriasa to sleep in the Sukkah.

It’s just that due to Yeridas Hadoros on one hand, and the spread of Chassidus on the other (so that even relatively simple people have some understanding of what holiness a Sukkah has), that there’s this guilty feeling.”

Did you ever learn the sicha inside? A guilty feeling due to [mis]understanding sisrai Torah has nothing to do with it.

Vehayiso MESHUGO mimar’ei enecho – without proper guidance, you come up with crooked “oitaich” of Halacha, and wid up in Sheol Tachtis CH”V!