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Otherwise no I don’t see any casual untzniusdik mixing of genders between lubavitcher chassidim
I do. When I mentioned this to an older Chabad chossid, rather than deny the obvious as you keep on doing, he sighed and acknowledged what a chillul Hashem it is.
CS, ישראל ואורייתא וקב’ה חד הוא what does this mean? It says והוא באחד ומי ישיבנה it should have said אחד says the Shlah Hakadosh that we must unite and be one with Hashem like we say שמע ישראל ה’ אלקינו ה’ אחד the meaning of shema is to unite like it says וישמע שאול את העם meanig he united them. This can be demonstrated to the Jews are all around a circle and Hashem is the middle and our purpose in life is to make the circle smaller through Torah/the Rebbe’s teachings and unite into one point with the center. Everyone originally is equal distant from the center.
“Ahh, but אחר used to be עלישה בן אבוי׳ who we quote in פרקי אבות and went off the derech because he couldn’t keep the level he was on (פרגוד) and he taught ר מאיר before he went off”
Yes so what? Once he became a kofer and was acknowledged as such by everyone including himself, he was no longer a Rebbe, thus the halacha didn’t apply.”
What about the hundreds (probably thousands) of examples in shas and poskim where rabbanim do not hold like their predecessors and their own rabbanim, including the Rambam MANY times? Do you honestly think your understanding of the Rambam is even close to correct? You literally cannot hold different than your rebbe? I can read the Rambam too, but to apply such a superficial reading to this discussion, especially when the plain reading is already clearly not how our mesorah works (where there are differences in psak from rebbe to talmud), is pretty shocking.Of course you are allowed to argue on your rebbi provided that you have the proper proof and the proper respect. Tosfas argued on Rashi.
‘אלישע בן אבוי in Pirkei Avos speaks about his own concerns. He must have learned Torah at the later years when there is a danger to forget because the memory weakens with age as writing on an erased paper compared to the early years when you write on a new paper.
I can’t believe this thread is back on the topic of tznius. New people join and they can’t be bothered to go back and read the whole thread, so it just ends up repeating itself.
I might get criticized by my camp for saying this but, I don’t see the point in picking on CS anymore. She has pretty much admitted to everything of which she’s been accused. She is not beating around the bush at all anymore. What she is saying about mainstream, respected Chabad Rabbis believing (covertly at least) in meshichism seems absolutely true. I don’t see any reason to doubt her. What more are people trying to get out of her? Her beliefs are all out on the table and nobody is going to change anyone’s minds.
Sechel: I apologize for throwing your learning habits into question on the other thread. As you could see on that thread, there are those who do hold of a concept of being purposefully ignorant of all non-Chabad shittos. I mistakenly assumed this was all Lubavitchers, but it is clearly not your camp. It could very well be only the extremists I had met. I hope you agree that those who do subscribe to that are making a mistake. As for your comment about the S”A HaRav, yes I was aware that it is missing many halachos. Sometimes it says “חסר” where they are supposed to be, and sometimes they seem to just not be there (this is only how it is in my copy). I have a few curiosities from that if you wouldn’t mind answering. I’ll give you diplomatic immunity that I won’t start arguing again.
1) Were the lacking sections never written, or were they written and lost?
2) Why is it that when there is a machlokes between the S”A HaRav and the Baal HaTanya’s siddur, Lubavitch minhag seems to always go after the siddur?“And that’s aside from the fact that it’s halacha that you’re not allowed to doubt your Rebbe, and if you do youre doubting Hashem. Hilchos TT 5:5. ”
“Ahh, but אחר used to be עלישה בן אבוי׳ who we quote in פרקי אבות and went off the derech because he couldn’t keep the level he was on (פרגוד) and he taught ר מאיר before he went off”
Yes so what? Once he became a kofer and was acknowledged as such by everyone including himself, he was no longer a Rebbe, thus the halacha didn’t apply.”
It seems to chabadshluch You simply can’t go against a rebbe, unless the halacha doesn’t apply, eg. You’re a kofer thus not a rebbe. I hope I misunderstood her point
Laskern,
It’s the opposite, he knew his Torah and didn’t forget it because he learned it when he was young
Just the Torah wasn’t matzil him because it wasn’t done correctly
coffee addict, thanks for straightening me out, but Rebbi placed it Pirkei Avos to teach us a good lesson to learn at a young age Shabbos 21a גירסא דינקותא, when a person has a good memory, he writes on a new paper rather than at an old age when he writes on an erased paper as the memory goes.
” I mistakenly assumed this was all Lubavitchers, but it is clearly not your camp”
Apology accepted. Though, all Lubavitchers I know of, even extreme Mishechistim study Gemara Leiyuna with all the standard Meforshim, and learn Yore Deah with the Nose Keilim as I described elsewhere.Tradition has it, that the Alter Rebbe wrote on all of Shulchan Aruch, and there was a fire as so often happened in those times, which burned much of his writing, including parts of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, and a sefer entitled “Sefer Shel Tzaddikim”.
Regarding how we pasken when there’s variance between the Shulchan Aruch HaRav and the Piskei HaSiddur, much has been written about it, but in short, we Pasken like the Siddur, as it was written last.
For further reference, see Rav Chaim Noehs “Piskei HaSiddur”.The reason given of why the Alter Rebbe was chozer on some Psokim later in his life in the Siddur is, because he originally tried to Paskin like the Mogen Avraham as often as possible, as seen in his Psokim in SA HaRav, but later in life he was cholek with several Psokim of the Mogen Avraham, one famous one is by Sof Zman Krias Shma, where in the SA he holds like the MGA, but in the Siddur he was chozer and Paskined like the GRA.
(Shu”t Divrei Nechemia, Shu”t Tzemach Tzedek)So please explain how both co exist.
Because חולק על רבו doesn’t mean to disagree on a halacha, it means to open a competing yeshiva without permission.
We pasken motzei shabbos like the Rabbenu Taam but Alter Rebbe retracted from the SA Harav to the siddur paskening like the GRA.
“Have you ever considered that moshiach may come in the near future and answer all the questions?”
Have you ever considered he won’t? Because if he doesn’t, you and all your decendents will have to find answers. And those answers may be very similar to ones another religion has had in the past.
Chabadshlucha, what you are quoting doeant actually contain an actual halacha. He is saying how important it is to follow chachmei yisroel/rabbanim, before getting into the halachos. All that can be taken from that is the severity of violating am undefined halacha. There is actually no contradiction at all between your post and YR
“I have my svara but would love to hear yours.”
Is your svara that one’s referring to the Nossi Hador who cannot be argued on, and the other is for plain people like the Sanhedrin? /sarc
Seriously, what do you think the answer is?
CR – There is no contraction: The first Rambam is talking about arguing for fun are just arguing – Hilchos Kavod.
It is not referrinng to Halacha – In fact Shas is filled with places where people argued on their rebbe in Halacha., Hilchois Shgagiyos is referring to Halacha.CHABAD IS UNIQUE in that NO-ONE will ever consider arguing with the Rebbe in halacha, even in cases where he’s demonstrably wrong (ie sukkah et al). This has utterly destroyed Halacha’s self-correcting mechanism.
Re nevuah: Accurate predictions mean nothing in regards to Nevuah. The predictions must be made AS A NEVUAH with the INTENT TO PROVE YOU’RE A NAVI (I guess hilchos Yesoidei Hatorah you’ve never learnt either?) which the Rebbe never did. If the Rebbe said he was a Navi, he was delusional. Also, if a Navi makes even a minute mistake, he is a Navi sheker. I am aware of many small mistakes the Rebbe made in his predictions. For example, the death of the one yid during the Gulf War is enough to render the Rebbe a Navi sheker if he was indeed a navi.
However, to consider the Rebbe a Navi is utter idiocy, because he met even less requirements of being a Navi than being Mashiach.
Yes Reuven Wolf is a koifer, for beleiving the Rebbe can effect things in this world without Hashem (even if its supposedly with Hashem’s “permission”, he still feels its higher level than Tzaddik Goizer)
CS – weirdly my primary post to you wasn’t approved by the mods, so here we go again.
There is no way the Rebbe is a navi, he never fulfilled the halachos of being a navi – namely making a prediction FOR THE SAKE OF PROVING ONE’S A NAVI, which the rebbe NEVER did. Thus it is impossible for him to be a Navi,. It’s about as likely as he is Moshiach.
Also, if the Rebbe is Halachically a Navi, then he deserved to be killed. Because his primary nevuah, aboutbeing Mashiach coming soon has not come true. And if soon could be redefined into meaning anything at all, then I can be a Navi as well, because of the Ani Maamin.
And that’s ignoring the things the Rebbe predicted incorrectly and erred on numerous times. (A tzaddik can err, a Navi cannot.)
CS, did you see what I wrote in reply #1641477
YeshivishRockStar, what do you do with הים אם בקלו תשמעו? The Ramban predicted the coming of Moshiach in the beginning of Bereishis. The Chasam Sofer says that we were not wothy of it.
@ Username
“This is actually quite funny. I wrote “while Litvishers respect the Gedolim almost as much as Lubavich” and got attacked from both sides. One side (Syag) was quite upset that I dared hint that you respect your Gedolim less than we respect the Rebbe. At the same time, I was corrected from the other side, saying that there’s a fundamental difference between our view of the Rebbe and your view of your Gedolim.”
What’s funny? Both are true.
1) K-Cup pointed out that:
a) In the Litvishe world we do not have “Rebbes” as you understand them. And…
b) It is an accepted aspect of the halachic due process for competent poskim to disagree with their predecessors. I can excuse CSs superficial quote of the Rambam and Chinuch to support her position but you should know better. Even a cursory reading of the poskim on this matter would be sufficient for this. judging from your posts that is well within your abilities. I called K-Cup out on the tone of the post not the content.You say Syag’s was “upset”? You made a blanket statement that in Litvishe and Non Chabbad Chassidish circles the respect accorded Gedolim is less than in Chabbad. Honoring a Talmid Chochom in general and ones Rov in particular is a Mitzvah with halachos. Claiming that all of Klal Yisroel outside Chabad somehow falls short is completely out of line.
I miss Sechel and Username. They were intelligent, and had reading comprehension. So does CS, at least in English.
Laskern – THE RAMBAN WAS NOT A NAVI NOR EVER CLAIMED TO BE.
My whole problem is with Nevuah, not incorrect predictions. In fact, as I feel the Rebbe was a gadol, I think that that’s exactly what happened this time too – we could have greeted Moshiach, but we were not worthy. Pity most of Chabad doesn’t think this way.
ChabadShlucha – Ths=is isn’t an attack: Just curious: We mentioned igros before:
Some questions:
1)Do you ask Hashem or The Rebbe when you ask the Igros?2) If it’s the Rebbe, can you use
a)Just the igrois
b)any of The Rebbe’s seforim
c)any sefer in the world
d)any sign in the world (eg, “Rebbe, show me your listening”, and then you see a picture of the Rebbe)3) Can I ask just the Rebbe, or can I ask any of the Chabad rebbeim? For that matter, can I ask Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igros Moshe?
4)Why isn’t the Igros an issur deoiraisa of Lo Senachesh? Your asking for a sign from heaven (even from Hashem that’s assur, and Gorel Hagra was done very rarely and with lots of preperation precisely to avoid this issur)
Anxiously awaitng your response.
And while they don’t respect them just as much as we respect the Rebbe (as you can see from the past 23 pages), they get pretty close
This reminds me of that joke where the hillbilly says, “nobody loves their mother as much as I do, after all, I married her”
Laskern,
Are you bringing up memory on purpose?
CS: secondly I would hope any women are not banned from learning halacha.”
Learning Rambam is NOT learning halacha.
username: “So pretty much no one is Lesheim Shamayim.”
And what is your problem with that? Lubavichers always quote Tanya pointing out that we are virtually all reshaím (vera lahem) because in Tanya it says that even one aveirah makes you a rasha. To say that virtually no one is lesheim Shamayim is along the same lines, and even less “distasteful”, isn’t it?
I brought up memory to explain the difference between young and old age why גירסא דינקותא is so important.
username, thanks for the Reb Tzadok. But note that he too talks mainly about it in the plural (and, of course, he doesn’t use the expression nossi hador).
So when lubavichers says that their rebbe is nossi hador it is ignoring the fact that there may be others of just a high a standard. And don’t forget that Tanya, which is your prime source for all of chassidus, only mentions it in the plural.
rockstar: “RSo, not sure why you’re so hung on tznius (debatable) and shluchim’s motivations (I’ll bet it’s sincere), when there are far more pressing issues in Chabad, such as A shliach’s wife on this very forum quoted a koifer”
Because when it comes to kefira, you do have a group – only a minority but certainly a group – of lubavichers, such as SHY who is against that view. But the lack of tznius is pervasive in all the different streams.
SHY: “To quote the Likkutei Halochos of Rav Nosson of Breslov:
וְאִתְפַּשְּׁטוּתָא דְּמֹשֶׁה בְּכָל דָּרָא וְדָרָא, כִּי מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִתְלַבֵּשׁ בְּכָל דּוֹר וָדוֹר בַּצַּדִּיק הָאֲמִתִּי שֶׁבַּדּוֹר.
He clearly develops this concept into a single person in a generation”Not necessarily. Tzaddik haámiti does not necessarily imply one individual in a generation.
At any rate thanks for the sources.
“NO-ONE will ever consider arguing with the Rebbe in halacha, even in cases where he’s demonstrably wrong (ie sukkah et al).”
You don’t need to agree with the Rebbes justification of a long standing Minhag Chabad. The Rebbe didn’t make up this Minhag, the Rebbe merely justified it Halachically. I highly doubt that you even read what the Rebbe says about it in the original Sicha, not some nonsense on “Chabad Talk” .
(And here I should point out, that all your references to this Chabad Talk forum are irrelevant. I had never even heard of this forum before, and it hasn’t been active in years, and a cursory look at it will show you that it was primarily used by clueless BTs)
Also, Chabad weren’t the only ones not to sleep in the Sukkah, neither did Belz before the war. In a shmuess between Rav Shterenbuch of Antverpenn and the Satmar Rebbe of KJ, the latter says: “In Dzhikov one did not sleep in the Sukkah. If somebody happened to doze off in the Sukkah he would be awakened, so that he not transgress… They would wake him by saying: “Nu, Sukkah…”
But of course, if they aren’t Lubavitch, their Minhag doesn’t bother anyone…
Our Minhag of not sleeping in the Sukkah dates back to the Alter Rebbe, and the Mitteler Rebbe instructed Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah. (Sefer HaSichos 5699).
SHY, Chossid and username, do you realize what a disservice you are doing to CS?
Your posts are thought out and follow along a logical path, at least for those who believe in the concepts that you believe in and I don’t. So now when CS comes up with zingers she looks really foolish, and I barely have the patience to read all her posts.
Here’s one of her latest: “an acquaintance in YU confirmed to me there is no contemporary leader of the Jewish people and its plainly evident to the non biased”
That is really convincing! Now, I have to find a bigger left-winger – say a transgender Jews for J – who agrees with me or I lose the argument.
CS: Na now you’re switching the topic. First you attack the description of the rebbetzin on her wedding day, I reply to that and now you say that you’re referring to basic halacha.”
No. I attacked both, and I stand by those attacks.
If you’re talking about the example you gave of your lubavitch relatives mocking your tznius standards I had two questions for you which you never responded to.
1) why did they become lubavitch?
2) are they chassidish (as in lubavitch chassidish)?”””They are relatives through marriage who were born in lubavich and who are considered “lubavich chassidish”in their lubavich communities.
CS: “Otherwise no I don’t see any casual untzniusdik mixing of genders between lubavitcher chassidim (I don’t mean lubavitch by birth).”
Then you haven’t been shopping on Kingston Avenue lately and you certainly haven’t walked into the lobby during a lubavicher chasunah for a looooong time.
“I miss Sechel and Username. They were intelligent, and had reading comprehension”
Thanks, BTW, I’m still here.
CS: “Moshiach can clearly come from the dead, hidden, or the living (as brought earlier on this thread)”
I really like the word clearly in that sentence.
Those of us old enough to remember what was going on pre gimmel Tammuz clearly remember lubavichers “proving” that the rebbe is mashiach from the fact that there is no one else ALIVE who fits the criteria.
Before gimmel Tammuz if you would have suggested to a lubavicher that maybe someone who died will be mashiach he would have explained to you that that is impossible, and likely apikorsus. This is not conjecture. I remember it well, and there are probably other posters who remember it too.
My, my. Look what someone’s death on gimmel Tammuz has now made “clear”.
“Because when it comes to kefira, you do have a group – only a minority but certainly a group – of lubavichers, such as SHY who is against that view. But the lack of tznius is pervasive in all the different streams.”
I disagree on both accounts. One, people like me aren’t a small minority in Lubavitch, and two, while I can’t comment too much on Tznius, it’s definitely not a pervasive issue among the kinds of people I associate with. The more Chassidishe crowd, Mishechistim included, don’t have the same issues in Tznuis as the more modern crowd does. But as Neville pointed out, this is a distraction to the topic at hand, and I don’t think it’s our place as men to discuss this on a public forum, for many reasons.
Sechel, I’ve read the Sicha in the original Yiddish. Just sayin’. As a yeshiva bachur I was highly attracted to Chabad. I met some great Lubavitchers, such as R’ Shemtov from Philidalphia. However, when I realized he was in the minority, and that one or two of the Rebbe’s logical leaps were incoherent (which I have no problem with, many people make mistakes, it’s just that no one in Chabad seemed to realize that), and the biggest turnoff – that 70%-99% of Chabadniks were nuts, i left, though I still respect the Rebbe.
My biggest problem with the Sukkah Sicha – is that if one’s Rebbe is pattur from the mitzva, then all of the Chassidim are Patur. So if the Rebbe would be cold, then all chassidim in Hawaii don;t need to sleep?
And what about nowadays, Meisim Patur Min Hamitzvois, so are all Chabad chassidim Pattur Min Hamtzvois, becuase their neshama and their chiyuvim are talui in the Rebbe? (Here’s one place where the meshichistim are better off!)
As to why I refer to chabadtalk: It’s a great place to see Chabadniks be Moseich Lefi Tumoi. The comments are Hershl’s blog and many other Chabad sites do a great job of that as well.
For example, check out the vitriol poured on R Menashe Klein’s Petirah (and he was no anti-lubavicher) from the meshichistim on various chabad news sites because of his famous teshuva. And they’re 75% of the comments.
roskstar, thanks for dealing so well with the navi issue. I just didn’t have the koiech for a new sub-topic and I was happy to see you doing it for me, and probably better than I could have done myself.
SHY: “Our Minhag of not sleeping in the Sukkah dates back to the Alter Rebbe, and the Mitteler Rebbe instructed Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah. (Sefer HaSichos 5699)”
I know I’m going to get into BIG trouble for this one, but note that Sefer HaSichos 5699 was said by the Rayatz who, as I have said before, was very “creative” in telling us history.
He is also the one who told us the story about Moshe Rabbeinu sending malachim to get esrogim from Calabria, and once again he cited the Baal Hatanya as the source.
Has anyone ever heard of the expression that ends “ירחיק עדיו”? (I told you I’d get into trouble for this.
RSO,
“Not necessarily. Tzaddik haámiti does not necessarily imply one individual in a generation.”
Read it again. It’s very clearly written in the singular Loshon, and that’s not an opinion or Hergesh, that’s fact. Tzaddik HoAmiti Shebador means exactly what it says. You can argue on me bringing this as a source, and the truth is, I wouldn’t necessarily bring Rav Nosson as a primary source, because I am not sufficiently familiar enough with his Torah, and it would be dishonest to pluck him out at random to prove a point, but here I’m trying to show that this idea is not exclusive to Lubavitch.While I like your flattery of me, I don’t think you need to put down CS. She has made many valid points, and has contributed much to this discussion. I don’t think that everything she is writing she believes to be empirical evidence, clearly much of it is anecdotal, (the YU story) and there’s no problem with the anecdotal, just don’t expect it to sway anyone’s strongly formed opinions. Also, if it wasn’t clear yet, The Yeshiva World doesn’t exactly hold YU in the greatest esteem, and neither does the Lubavitch world. ואין כאן מקומו.
Rso – NP! Glad to. Just know, that one day me n’ you are gonna fight over the Nasi Hador, because as a Breslover, I agree with much of Chabad’s thought on the subject (besides the messianism, deification, and the actual identity of who it is. Or, simply put, I agree with what it says in their seforim, as opposed to what Chabadniks actually believe.)
But e/t else we seem to agree.
SHY: it’s definitely not a pervasive issue among the kinds of people I associate with”
Do you live in Crown Heights? At any rate, good for you hanging around with the right crowd. But, as others have confirmed, it is a HUGE problem in lubavich.
Would you agree that the average chassidshe bochur in lubavich feels that once he is married it is ok to talk to women and girls? I have seen “chassidishe”chassanim at lubavich chasunos being introduced by their kallos to all her friends, and the chassanim find this normal (enjoyable?). This doesn’t happen in any other chareidi group.
Sechel, BTW, it’s IMPOSSIBLE that the minhag not to sleep in the sukkah dates back to the Alter Rebbe, otherwise he would have pointed it out in his SA.
The whole minhag dating back thing seems to be the Rebbe’s innovation.
As far as not sleeping in the sukkah, I have no problem with that at all, neither does Belz. It’s the Justification I have a problem with. (Many people have minhagim that seem to contradict halacha, but if it’s your minhag you can follow it – unless you went thorough the sugya yourself and feel otherwise.)
“My biggest problem with the Sukkah Sicha – is that if one’s Rebbe is pattur from the mitzva, then all of the Chassidim are Patur. So if the Rebbe would be cold, then all chassidim in Hawaii don;t need to sleep?”
You are (perhaps not deliberately) misconstruing the Rebbes svarah, and also misunderstanding the point of the Sicha in general. If you wanted to leave your details with the Mods and they could forward them to me, I’d be happy to speak with you, because I really feel where you are coming from, especially after you mentioned Reb Avremel, who is a Tayere Chossid who I have great respect for.
Regarding HoRav Menashe Klein Z”L, I have the greatest respect for him, and all Lubavitchers I know, especially Rabbonim, hold him in the highest esteem. He was close with the Rebbe as well. I have to admit, that I haven’t seen the specific Tshuva you are referring to, I’d greatly appreciate if you could post the Mare Mokom.
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