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CS, What are the three requirements? The source for each requirement? and how did your Rebbe fulfill each requirement?
I should have written this a long time ago, you want to argue that Nosi HaDor is a made up concept? Fine.
(Why do I believe in made up concepts? Because of who made them up. )
But don’t claim “The Rebbe made it up” because it was used before the Rebbe was born.
See Tanya Perek Bais:
וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל, שנשמותיהם הם בחינת ראש ומוח לגבי נשמות ההמון ועמי הארץ, וכן נפשות לגבי נפשות, כי כל נפש כלולה מנפש רוח ונשמה.(Note it doesn’t use the words Nosi HaDor, just the concept)
Twist much? Of course the words aren’t used, he made up the title. The title was made up. Thats what Rso said several times.
The Chasam Sofer in sefer Chut Hameshulosh says that if someone like himself was picked as posek hador, he is helped from heaven that he should not make a mistake. He thought twice that he made a mistake and retracted his psak, but it turned out that he was correct originally.
“וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל”
You do notice the plural ראשי as in “heads of” not singular ראש “head of”
So how is this a support for the Nossi HaDor concept exactly?
רש”י במדבר כא, כא:
שמשה הוא ישראל וישראל הם משה, לומר לך שנשיא הדור הוא ככל הדור, כי הנשיא הוא הכלEven if we accept that the Rebbe Z”L was Moshe while living, but who is Moshe NOW???
@ SH
“שמשה הוא ישראל וישראל הם משה, לומר לך שנשיא הדור הוא ככל הדור, כי הנשיא הוא הכל”
And this refers to the last Lubavitcher Rebbe because…?
I didn’t say it refers to him, I gave it as a source for the concept of there being a Nosi HaDor, because that’s what people here were asking. That said, I do believe the Rebbe is the Nosi of his Dor, as the Zohar says, there is an “Ispashtusa D’Moshe” in each and every generation, and I believe that Rebbe fit the bill, and was the Neshoma Klollis of his Dor, and that’s a concept elucidated in Tanya and Zohar.
Cs,
Ahh, but אחר used to be עלישה בן אבוי׳ who we quote in פרקי אבות and went off the derech because he couldn’t keep the level he was on (פרגוד) and he taught ר מאיר before he went off
Everyone (I think) believes the rebbe was normal just the question is “did he go off”
Sam,
You ask a good question, and that is a very difficult one, and far beyond the original scope of this discussion. In short, I personally consider the Rebbe to still be the Nosi HaDor (or whatever you like call it)Rso: “As I don’t consider the lubavicher rebbe a gadol beYisroel, and, as I have written, I see him as someone who had a lot of “talent” but who allowed himself to “stray” from the straight and narrow, I certainly feel that I can argue with what he says. I understand that you see it differently.I don’t”
Can you explain what is a godel? Who fits the criteria? And why you don’t see the Rebbe as a godel? And same with a tzadik. Please
For some reason you guys call every Joe schmo a godel or a tzadik. But the Rebbe Cv”s not.
And if you can explain the Gemorah in it’s words, how it means the way you learn it. Because it doesn’t seem that your learning the Gemorah correctly.
“as you claim, hold that ALL gedolim hold like I do, but I do hold that many of them do, and in that we can include virtually all the litvishe velt.”
Names please, and what exactly they said.
Your opinion is worthless.
(I think your the one that is lacking derech eretz).“Therefore, making sure our kids and talmidim aren’t exposed to danger and have a high level of kedushah is our number one priority. And the proof that your derech is very dangerous is what I have been writing about all the time: lack of tznius, and worse, in lubavich”
Just to note the facts, shluchims kids (which by default are exposed) are way more frum/chassidish and mechunich, better then all the rest of the Lubavitche that doesn’t go on shlichus and stay in crown heights ( not all but nice percentage). So I don’t think the Rebbes plan for shlichus is affecting our on kids.
And if you wore trying to be negative or not i think we can all agree that shluchim have just a little more mesiras nefesh, then the ones that stay in the community to be in kolel or rosh yeshiva.
And btw just to note, i happened to have an uncle to that’s on shlichus for nice amount of years and he doesn’t have a kehilah, doesn’t get any kovod, all he does is visiting people and speak to them to do more mitzvos. etc. And I happen to be by a shliach recently that does the same. With no normal income, And believe me it’s hard work, so don’t just upmach the whole thing.Regarding the problems and storys you say about us, I can say the same about you guys (just for some reason I don’t see a reason to speak about it), I hang around alot of litvishe/chassidish bochurim that do plenty of terrible stuff, which I won’t even try to put it in words, (and they come from a officially good yeshiva), so please stop bringing up problems, because like I said before no one is perfect. Each kreis has different problems that are worse then the other.
Username: tzuvishin dir un mir, I know want they say about lubavitch, and what the Rebbe said back, just i never heard in my life people for example rso. saying such crazy things about the Rebbe and chabad, saying that all the Rebbe did was for his on koved….. Friediker Rebbe that all he wrote is fiction……. and that we are aovid avodah zarah, because we write a tzetul to the Rebbe, (just like other chassidim write a kevitul to their Rebbe, and litvaks to Rav Shtieman zatzal, (even after he past away) and for some reason no one calls them aovid avodah zarah). And claims that Chabad are koifrim…. (All this without mekoirs.. just because it’s new musogim to them), so after all that, I do intend to know from him exactly where does he base his opinion on, And then we can have a conversation between what did the gedoilim say and what the Rebbe said, (we don’t have to come to an agreement, and they also didn’t).
Just to note today is zoz Chanukah (a guteh kvitul to everyone) this year we are celebrating the anniversary of the geulah of Sholom Mordecai Rubashkin, for one reason or another, all the yiddin and gedoilim and rabbeim from litvish to chassidish davend for him while he was in jail, and when he got out, thousands upon thousands of people came to celebrate his geulah, and this year too in boro park.
Now if Lubavitche are koifrim, and aovid avodah zarah, mishichistim, etc. etc. Why did almost all gedoilim from all walks of life (including Rabbi Pinchas lefshitz which is the head of a newspaper that used to be very anti Lubavitch) meet with him, and daven for him? ( No one bothered to ask what’s his hashkofa).Actually regarding this day which brought achdus between yeddin, I think we should focus on what unites us, and not the opposite.
Maybe we should have a decision about adding in our avodah, and how can we do Hashems rotzion properly.
SHY: “You could have realized all this yourself RSO, instead of me going digging to find the original wording, but you first try look at everything concerning Lubavitch in a bad light”
The fact is that 1. there is a picture of a kallah in her wedding dress (sans veil) plastered all over the place, and 2. the offensive (and it is offensive) translation is published in a Lubavich “chassidishe” magazine. It could have been edited better, but in all likelihood no lubavicher would blink twice at the wording even if it had been the original.
One more thing, the lashon might be taken from pesukim etc, but it is still something that you would never find in any other chassidus when describing a kallah or any woman. I would be very interested to see if you could prove me wrong here.
Finally, please stop telling me that all I’m out to find things wrong with lubavich. Let’s say that that’s true. Does it make wrong things right?
No, CS, you’re wrong, and I’ve said it before. A lack of tznius MEANS a lack of kedushah. You can discuss the levels of tznius of different groups, but dresses above the knee and sleeves above the elbow are against halacha, and therefore can’t be compared to any other levels. We’re not even talking about long sheitels, which have been banned by some many groups here and for good reason. We’re talking about breaches of halocho. And then there is the ease of association between the genders that is so prevalent in lubavich. I know because I have seen it and experienced it.
CS: “The chassidisher derher didn’t see it as a “thing” obviously or they wouldn’t have printed it.”
That is precisely part of the problem.
Two hundred + years of maamarim, sichos, extraordinarily deep divrei & chidushei Torah, all in the trash by the hands of a handful of individuals who claim to be representatives of these teachings of Chabad Chassidus…
CS: If you had any sense to you, and any respect to the Rebbe, you would stop now. Rather than turning not only the responders here but also every reader on this site against the Rebbe, you should perhaps consider publicizing some of the Rebbe’s unique chidushim on Torah. Or is all this babble about mashiach and nasi hador all you know? I mean seriously, over two hundred years of deep wisdom and it comes down to “My Rebbe is better than your Rebbe!”?!?!?!?! Just stop, it’s absolutely horrible every time I see that this thread is continuing (though I do not waste my time reading this lashon hara, believe me).
It’s absolutely abhorrent, and reminds me of that quote from Tanya…taking the King’s head… (al derech mashal, of course).
The Rebbe stood for so many good things, and here people like you are hanging on to some made-up nonsense with no source whatsoever. Just stop!
CS: “btw rso I didn’t respond to your example of the Satmar Rebbe as Nossi hador because it didn’t meet the three requirements listed”
You’re free to make up as many requirements as you want for the position of Nossi hador because the position doesn’t exist.
Just one question: do you make up the requirements first, and then attribute them to your rebbe, or do you find attributes you think your rebbe has and then claim they are requirements?
The same question I’ve often wondered about lubavichers associating the Rambam’s criteria for Mashiach to the lubavicher rebbe. It’s either misconstrue the Rambam or decide that the rebbe has those criteria.
CS: “But to ask if we think that way and then get all riled up and annoyed any time its mentioned as a response to a query, without providing a serious rebuttal of why WE shouldn’t, is silly”
I grant you that I may be silly in many ways, but you are missing the point. I’m not arguing with you whether your rebbe does or does not fit the title of Nossi hador. I am telling you that there is no such title!
Syag: “He did provide a serious rebuttal. Mire than once. Nameky that the title doesnt exist. He made it up !
Why do you pretend everything you dont like didn’t happen?”Thanks. I posted a similar response before I saw what you had written.
Most of your post is utter nonsense and otherwise incomprehensible. Not worth responding to, except for one important point: The newspaper run by Rabbi Pischutz is STILL Anti-Lubavitch. However, Rabbi Lipschutz is drawing a crucial distinction between a movement with questionable behavior/beliefs and an individual who endured suffering and hardship-much of it unfairly. It is irrelevant which “brand” of chassidus he belonged to; a Yid needed help and Rabbi Lipschutz’s goal was to rally Klal Yisroel to obtain that help, despite the fact that he doesn’t agree with that Yid’s hashkafos. (As an important aside, THAT is a shining example of Ahavas Yisroel- I don’t accept his beliefs, but I love him as a Jew and want to help him).
SHY: “But don’t claim “The Rebbe made it up” because it was used before the Rebbe was born.
See Tanya Perek Bais:
וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל, שנשמותיהם הם בחינת ראש ומוח לגבי נשמות ההמון ועמי הארץ, וכן נפשות לגבי נפשות, כי כל נפש כלולה מנפש רוח ונשמה.
(Note it doesn’t use the words Nosi HaDor, just the concept)”Nope. The concept that your rebbe made up is clearly in the singular and he only every used it about his father-in-law, and as understood by lubavichers by implication about himself. One Nossi hador and that’s it.
Not only does the Tanya not use that loshon, but he clearly says it in the plural: roshei, nishmoseihem, heim.
Btw, I have heard this Tanya quoted, and explained by a lubavicher that the Baal Hatanya was really referring to himself, in the singular, but he wrote it in plural out of anivus! I kid you not.
My apologies. I thanked SHY for having already said what I had later posted when in fact it was Syag. How could I have mixed the two up?
SHY: “רש”י במדבר כא, כא:
שמשה הוא ישראל וישראל הם משה, לומר לך שנשיא הדור הוא ככל הדור, כי הנשיא הוא הכל”Did you read what I orignally wrote? I specifically said that the term has not been applied to anyone in many hundreds of years. Quoting Rashi referring to Moshe Rabbeinu is totally irrelevant.
CS: “Rambam it would seem is talking about Rebbe as in a teacher and guide of Torah, whose halachic and hashkafic stances may differ
From others but he is known as A Talmid Chochom and has a solid Torah basis for his words…”You’re now learning pshat in a Rambam?! Even in Brisk the women don’t do that.
SHY: “s the Zohar says, there is an “Ispashtusa D’Moshe” in each and every generation”
If you’ll look at the source – and I have, I just can’t remember exactly where it is in the Zohar – it does not mean it is mispashet in one person, rather in the dor as a whole, or at least in 600,000 Yidden.
Is there anyone out there who has the source in Zohar?
Sechel and CS (but especially CS) How long does the seventh generation last?
Is there an end point? or is the answer “as long as necessary”? (I suspect that in 70 years, when meshichsists have finally formed their own religion, they will still be talking about how we’re in the 7th generation.)
I think we’re in the eighth generation, and those meshichists who literally believe the rebbe’s a Navi (CS, do you believe the Rebbe’s literally a navi? Because Reuvein Wolf does) essentially believe that the Rebbe is a navi sheker.
Chossid: “Can you explain what is a godel? Who fits the criteria? And why you don’t see the Rebbe as a godel? And same with a tzadik. Please”
No, I can’t tell you what a godol is, but I can tell you just a few of the criteria that he must possess:
1. He doesn’t try to explain away halochos that he doesn’t keep as irrelevant or inapplicable (e.g. sleeping in a sukkah, not eating Seudah Shlishis, davening after zman tefillah).
2. He doesn’t want to have his name, his picture and his movement plastered everywhere.
3, He doesn’t come up with childish “proofs” that his movement is the correct one (e.g. Beis Mashiach is begematria 770).
4. He tries to ensure there will be a hemshech so that it will not become a vacuum after his passing with everyone doing whatever they want in his name.
And above all (in my silly opinion) 5. He doesn’t think about promoting himself.Look, dear chossid, we disagree on a very basic point min hakotzeh el hakotzeh. You think that your rebbe was the ultimate tzaddik hador, and I don’t think he was a tzaddik. You’re not going to convince me, and i”m not trying to convince you. All I am trying to do is to show you that I and many others think that you are wrong and that that is why you should stop preaching as we don’t believe in the very basis of your view.
I’m happy to continue the argument, but do YOU see a point in continuing to ask my why, when and how I don’t hold of your rebbe?
Chossid: “Regarding the problems and storys you say about us, I can say the same about you guys (just for some reason I don’t see a reason to speak about it), I hang around alot of litvishe/chassidish bochurim that do plenty of terrible stuff, which I won’t even try to put it in words, (and they come from a officially good yeshiva), so please stop bringing up problems, because like I said before no one is perfect. Each kreis has different problems that are worse then the other.”
Hey! Why do you hang around with them? 🙁
Seriously, though, as I have said before, of course there are bad apples in every group. The difference here is that those litvish/chassidish bochurim you “hang around with” and are doing the wrong thing don’t do so in the name of their yeshivah.chassidus. The lack of tznius in action and word in lubavich is accepted at virtually the highest levels.
CS – No such Rambam exists.
In fact, the Rambam in Hilchois Shgagiyos clearly says that if someone’s Rebbe (or even the Sanhedrin) pasken something that you know is wrong, it is ASSUR for someone to follow that psak.
A dead Mashiach and a fake navi both clearly fit this bill.
What happened to the Daas in Chabad?!!
Chossid: ” just i never heard in my life people for example rso saying… Friediker Rebbe that all he wrote is fiction……. and that we are aovid avodah zarah, because we write a tzetul to the Rebbe”
Just for the record, I didn’t say ALL he wrote was fiction, and I didn’t get involved in the writing a “tzetl to the rebbe” conversation.
To me it seems that you have a very unsophisticated, even childish, understanding of the human mind and how kavod works. It doesn’t have to be kavod that someone else gives you, although there is certainly some of that in nearly all cases of chabad shlichim, but the kavod that you feel becaue you are doing what to you seems a bekavodige thing. If a shliach feels that he is a big chassid becasue he is on shlichus, then the bizyonos he gets doesn’t faze him. Aderaba, it makes him feel even better with himself.
Nothing wrong with any of that, but it just can’t be called lesheim Shamayim or ahavas Yisrael.
So pretty much no one is Lesheim Shamayim. Literally. Name me any one except for Moshe Rabbeinu (and I exempt him only because Hashem testifies directly about him that he was the most humble person), and I’ll find his Shelo Lishma. Whether it’s for the good feeling, or Gan Eiden, or for the physical fame.
@non political, @ Syag @K-cup and @YR.
This is actually quite funny. I wrote “while Litvishers respect the Gedolim almost as much as Lubavich” and got attacked from both sides. One side (Syag) was quite upset that I dared hint that you respect your Gedolim less than we respect the Rebbe. At the same time, I was corrected from the other side, saying that there’s a fundamental difference between our view of the Rebbe and your view of your Gedolim.
@everyone. Here’s an explicit Pri Tzadik (From Reb Tzaddok HaKohen of Lublin):
ובכל דור יש גם כן נפש או נפשות של ראשי אלפי ישראל הכוללים כמה אלפים נפשות. ויש ראשי הדור שהם כוללים נפשות כל אותו הדור דוגמת משה רבינו ע”ה ובהם שורש ממשה וכמו”ש האריז”ל על לשון משה שפיר קאמרת דגדול הדור נקרא כן שהוא ניצוץ משה רבינו ע”ה עצמו המתגלגל בכל דור ובגמ’ (ברכות נח 🙂 דר”ח בריה דרב איקא בירך על ר”פ ור”ה ברי’ דר”י חכם הרזים וא”ל כיון חזתינכו עלואי כששים ריבוא וא”ל חכימת כולי האי כו’ ע”ש וחשבו זה לחכמה גדולה שהשיג על ידי ראייתו אותם [עד”ש בזוהר יתרו ע”פ ואתה תחזה] שהם חשובים כששים ריבוא היינו שנפשותם כוללות נפשות כל הדור וכלולים מס’ רבוא דיעות.
Note this part:
וכמו”ש האריז”ל על לשון משה שפיר קאמרת דגדול הדור נקרא כן שהוא ניצוץ משה רבינו ע”ה עצמו המתגלגל בכל דור
I found the following line referenced to the Arizal (It says that it’s in ספר הלקוטיס, וזאת הברכה פ”ח, but I couldn’t find it there.)
“דע, כי משה רבינו עליו השלום בא בכל דור ודור, להאיר להם … והנה הצדיק שיש בו ניצוץ משה, הוא המנהיג את הדור, וכל החכמים שבדורו טפלים לו, כי הם ענפים שלו”
RSo, not sure why you’re so hung on tznius (debatable) and shluchim’s motivations (I’ll bet it’s sincere), when there are far more pressing issues in Chabad, such as A shliach’s wife on this very forum quoted a koifer (Reuven Wolf) who seems to be very widely accepted among meshichist chabad.
Although Meshichism per se is not kefira, I stand by what I said – Most meshichists are kofrim.
Read “Are tzaddikim infallible” on CHabadtalk. It’ll make your hair stand on edge.
RSO,
It’s in Tikunei Zohar ס”ט.
Many Chassidishe Sforim understand it to be going on every person, and many understand it to be speaking about individual Tzaddikim. Reb Ahron HaGodol of Karlin mentions both aspects many times. I’ll quote here several times when Chassidishe Sforim understand it in a similar way Chassidus Chabad uses it:כתיב וידבר משה את מועדי י”י כו’. אמר. כי לשון מועדי הוא התגלות. ודיבור הוא לשון הנהגה. וזהו וידבר משה. הנהיג והכניס את מועד”י י”י. התגלות אלקות. אל בני ישראל. ואתפשטותא דמשה הוא בכל דרא ודרא. כי כל צדיק בדורו הוא בחינת משה והם מכניסים התגלות אלקות בכל רגל ורגל אל בני ישראל:
– Bais Ahron (Karlin)עוד נוכל לומר. שלח לך כו’ הלא זה מלא בכל הספרים אשר אתפשטותא דמשה בכל דרא ודרא והוא שורש של נשמות כל ישראל. והראיה כפי דאיתא שנולדו במצרים ששים רבוא בכרס אחד ומנו משה כי הוא כללות ששים רבוא ישראל. לכך א”ל הקב”ה שלח לך אנשים. היינו הנשמות הנבראים בזה העולם בכל עת מאז ועד עתה ועד שיהיה שלימות הגמור והם נתונים בתוך הגוף בזה העולם:
– Bais Ahronדנודע כי אתפשטותא דמשה הוא בכל דרא עד ששים רבוא דרי ובכל צדיק וצדיק יש בחי׳ משה ניצוץ הקדוש מנשמת משה רבינו ע״ה שמסייעו לעובד עבודתו יתברך
– Meor Einayim ( Chernobyl)So far, the astute reader would observe that all these sources and the above quoted Tanya would seem to point to multiple such figures in every generation, and indeed it does. However there is one single individual who stands above the rest, like Moshe Rabbeinu in his generation, and Mordechai HaTzaddik in his, and that is not to the exclusion of the other Tzaddikim in that generation.
To quote the Likkutei Halochos of Rav Nosson of Breslov:
וְאִתְפַּשְּׁטוּתָא דְּמֹשֶׁה בְּכָל דָּרָא וְדָרָא, כִּי מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִתְלַבֵּשׁ בְּכָל דּוֹר וָדוֹר בַּצַּדִּיק הָאֲמִתִּי שֶׁבַּדּוֹר.He clearly develops this concept into a single person in a generation.
Now, you don’t have to believe or like any of this, but it’s clearly not exclusive to Lubavitch.I can carry on in this vein for pages, but I’m not going to waste my time.
YR,
I don’t know how long a generation lasts for. But I do know that people just a few years older than me remember and saw the Rebbe. Does a generation finish when the Rebbe is Nistalek? It obviously doesn’t go on forever, but being that there is no new Rebbe, it definitely continues for some time. I know what you will ask now, “Why didn’t the Rebbe appoint someone in his stead? Why didn’t Chabad appoint a new Rebbe?”
I can’t answer for the Rebbe, but I can tell you that the Rebbe had no children, and there was definitely no obvious worthy candidate, we have no one close to the Rebbes stature. The Rebbe did leave detailed instructions for after his passing, and instructed that Chassidim listen to Chassidishe Rabbonim and Vaadei Rabbonei Chabad be established in every community, among other Horaa’ors.
slabodka: I agree with you 100% that Rabbi did purely out of ahavas Yisrael, just wondering if he thinks he is a koifer then why did he speak so highly of him, for example his Emuna, etc. etc.
But can you explain to me why did all the Rebbeim in eretz Yisrael and also Rav Chaim kaniefsky sit with Rabbi Lazar (chief Rabbi of Russia) and they spoke with him, and accepted sefrei chassidus chabad from him? Isn’t he Lubavitche? I.e. koifr……..?
Seichel,
You want to know why the rebbe didn’t make a successor?
The lubavitcher rebbe was the 7th rebbe and that corresponds to the 7th ushpizin (דוד&משיח) so there can’t be one!
Sechel – actually, no. I have no problem with a chassidus that has no rebbe (I myself go to Uman RH). Nor do I have a problem with the Nosi Hador concept.
My question is merely how much longer we have to wait til it becomes blatantly clear to all that the Rebbe is not Moshiach, and that the seventh generation is over.
My feelings are that most chabad will return to the mainstream, and the rest will become elokists of sort.
‘וידבר משה את מועדי ה the Chasan Sofer interprets it the Rov/Rebbe together with the stregth of holidays of Hashem give us influence for the whole year’s behavior.
@RSo
Do you happen to realize that based on your definitive standard for a ‘gadol’ …. many of the Talmidei HaBaal Shem Tov Hakadosh would be far from ‘Gdolim’ (עפ”ל)Shall we start with……..R’ Nachman M’breslov?
I believe you have written on this thread that you belong to a ‘chassidic’ group. However seeing how you have a lack of knowledge of basic texts (Shas, Rambam etc.), and misconstrue them at will (the Gemara in Chullin did not say anything about staying in golus) I do not expect you to have knowledge of the history of Chassidism.
צא ולמדCS– if your back
My 2 questions:
1) Is the rebbe a novi (even if not, did he say any nevuah?)
2) Did the Rebbe help elect Donald Trump?And did your rav explain the rambam?
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