The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

So sorry for not replying straight away (and waiting until Monday – yes, in Australia it’s well into Monday!!)

So It would have hold true claiming that Lubavitch in Australia is worse than everywhere else if not for the fact that I was in Crown Heights too! The situation there is slightly different. There are many more from the older Chassidim who seem to be “normal and frum” but the younger generation is almost the same.
It’s appalling (and sadly appealing). It maybe be because of all the “Aussies” coming there as the centre of gravity and then mixing in with the crowds and lowering the level, but whatever the reason is, the younger generation isn’t much better, at all, that the Melbourne Lubavitch community.

Ok now for a few small scoops on Lubavitch in Melbourne.

1. Do you know that the official school uniform for Beth Rivkah is above the knees??

2. The boys and girls of year 12 (the last year of school) had a water fight! (I don’t know of any frum school anywhere that would not make a big fuss and story over it and make a cheshbon hanefesh were they went wrong)

3. One Sukkos I was by a Lubavitch party and was asked with astonished and shocked faces if “I sleep in the Sukkah! (BTW doesn’t it say the the Shulchan Aruch HaRav that one needs to sleep in the Sukkah unless he can’t for the Halachic reason)

And the cherry on the cake I’ll leave for the next post just because I realise that when you bunch a few things together the Lubavitchers on this forum seem to pick and choose which points to respond to.

RSO,

Never heard the quote you are referring to, but I’m going to guess that it was taken from someone’s diary in Loshon HaKodesh, and the writer paraphrased Chazal and wrote something about “Kallah Noeh”. Please post the exact words and their source.

SHY I found the magazine online! It’s called “A Chassidisher Derher” and it’s on page 53 of the Kislev edition which is only excerpted online. I searched for the quote I gave above and it showed up in a result but it seems that the preview keeps changing so it may not always appear.

At any rate, I’m sure you have access to the actual magazine. The quote is most definitely there.

SHY
I’m not going to argue with you regarding the Crown Heights community because though I’ve visited there, I must admit that I didn’t hang around that place enough to compare.
But one thing you seem to agree Lubavitch in Melbourne is in a bad state and if they start missionizing their Chassidus to me I’m gonna tell them have a look at what SHY wrote here and please fix your problems before even contemplating teaching Chassidus to so called “snags”.

Regarding the uniform, I hope your kidding me. The official cut is short – actually very short, those who wish can add an extra piece (now is that twisted or not??).

And the episode between the 12 graders happened (I barely posted here because I din’t want to attack anything and everything. I only write things I know firsthand) not only that but one year for Purim the 12 grader girls got dressed up as expecting females (not all, but a large majority).

So just to clarify “Lubavitch in Melbourne is problematic (even though I think it’s from the biggest communities) and do not learn from them. If so then I’m half way there. It frees my mind knowing that what they preach is baloney and even another Lubavitcher has given me a gushpankeh for that
THANKS!!

Rso: I was busy until now, but here’s a possible explanation is that the sundial was poorly constructed.

Sundials work because of the contrast between the shade and the dial, so if the sundial is made of a dark material, and there’s too much external shade, the contrast will be mush lower, and the sundial won’t work.

So what would the tree do?

When sun goes through a tree, some rays get blocked by leaves. Some rays go through the leaves, and some rays go between the leaves.

So when you’re on the ground, you’ll see the sun, but it’ll be slightly darkened. So the scientists said like you “you see the see the sun. So obviously nothing’s blocking it.” While the Alter Rebbe said that while it’s not blocked completely, it’s blocked enough to break the sundial.

But even leshitosecha, it still could be that the Frierdiker Rebbe heard the story the way he wrote it, and his mistake was that he was too trusting, and there was some kind of broken telephone somewhere up the chain.

@CS:

“Do you have a better candidate?””

For ARGUMENT’S SAKE, let’s pretend there is no better candidate. Does that automatically make the Rebbe Moshiach? Maybe there is NO candidate in this Dor. In the previous generation, did anyone point at the “best” candidate and say that that particular individual has to be Moshiach because he is the best candidate? That answer is completely absurd.

In terms of the Ahavas Yisroel business, why is it that many Shluchim in out of town communities are not “gores” the Litvishe Rabonim/institutions in town? Why is it that they are not Makdim Shalom ever? (You MIGHT get a lukewarm response back if YOU are Makdim Shalom)? And I speak from personal experience here….

Chossid: “Every tayneh you have against the shita of chabad and the Rebbe, and you make according to that a maskona, is worth nothing, until you have a godol or Rebbe that says that maskona, only then we can have a conversation who is right, but until then it’s worthless.”
I understand your point of view, honestly, but you have to understand why I disagree with you. As I don’t consider the lubavicher rebbe a gadol beYisroel, and, as I have written, I see him as someone who had a lot of “talent” but who allowed himself to “stray” from the straight and narrow, I certainly feel that I can argue with what he says. I understand that you see it differently.
I don’t, as you claim, hold that ALL gedolim hold like I do, but I do hold that many of them do, and in that we can include virtually all the litvishe velt.

“If it’s just ahavas Yisrael then why don’t the litvish or chassidish do the same?”
Because we/they think that it is a dangerous derech and the first thing the RBS”O wants is for us to protect our own from foreign influences. I believe you would agree that it is worse for a person raised in a frum home to be mechalel Shabbos c”v than it is for someone raised in a non-frum home. Both are not good but the former is a lot worse. Therefore, making sure our kids and talmidim aren’t exposed to danger and have a high level of kedushah is our number one priority. And the proof that your derech is very dangerous is what I have been writing about all the time: lack of tznius, and worse, in lubavich.

“there are many of talented Lubavitchers that can run big businesses and be rabbonim, melamdim…. But they decided for some reason that they are going to leave their comfort zone, and go to a hole in middle of the world and build up a community from scratch”
Yes, that’s true. But as I explained in my original post and in my reply to a question about kollel yungeleit, social pressure and the feeling of being an achiever in one’s own circle is always a factor. It’s what keeps many/most people in kollel when they could be running a successful business. It’s what keeps many/most bochurim in yeshivos when they could be out studying in college. And it’s what keeps many lubavichers in chabad houses.
I don’t consider that focusing on the negative, as it’s not negative because that’s the way Hashem made the world. The seforim say – I think it may also be a midrash – that if not for jealousy people wouldn’t marry, raise families or build houses. All of which are what Hashem wants in HIs world.

“after a shliach comes down somewhere and buids up a community with programs and Bal habatim, then in middle of nowhere someone comes down and takes all he’s Bal habatim, it only makes sense to be upset”
Of course it does. But if the whole raison d’etre of the first person was ahavas Yisroel it wouldn’t upset him. It’s natural but don’t put a lesheim Shamayim spin on it.

“They are not doing the same other shluchim, they are going to against the Rebbe ( most of them) they don’t listen to the system the Rebbe made and the people the Rebbe appointed, therefore they don’t deserve to be shluchim and most of them are mishichistim”
I’m an outsider (had you guessed that?) but to me it seems they are dong the same things the other shlichim are doing, and just as successfully. You claim that the don’t follow the system the way your rebbe wanted, but they claim they do. That’s the problem with your group’s lack of leadership, which I have already mentioned a few times.
And probably more than half of lubavich today are meshichistim. I don’t like it. You don’t like it. But you can’t just write it off as non-lubavich. CS claims to be a shlichah and she is a meshichist. Is she therefore not doing the rebbe’s work?

Regarding tznius, which you acknowledge as a problem, you write “Now if people don’t act accordingly to Torah or a certain hashkofa it’s doesn’t affect the kedusha of Torah or a hashkofa”
That’s true when I don’t act properly, and, it seems, when you don’t act properly, because we know that we are wrong. But the VAST majority of lubavichers, both BTs and FFBs, make fun of the basic levels of tznius as practiced by others. I know this for a fact because I and my chaveirim are often the butt of sick jokes to that effect. Every time we go to a family simchah made by the lubavich part of our family, I hear afterwards from my wife and kids how someone has made fun of the way they act. One example: “Come and say mazeltov to my wife/husband. What’s wrong with that? They’re happily married and they’re not going to be interested in you.” This happens, and it ONLY happens at lubavicher simchos.

“And for your reason rso that there is [I assume you left the word “no” out by mistake] arvus with goyim, I think you shouldn’t go for that reason to any non Jewish store.”
There is clearly no arvus by goyim, but I don’t see the connection with the rest of your statement. Nonetheless, you are right. One shouldn’t go to any non Jewish store and deal with the owners… unless one has to. In the same vein one shouldn’t go down the street unless one has to. However, you have written that you believe that the mivtza of 7 mitzvos is only intended for someone who already has a connection with goyim, and if that’s true than that’s fair enough. It doesn’t make me or anyone other non-lubavicher I know think that the whole campaign is still a meshigass. (Btw I still understand the gemoro my way.)

One final word in this overly long post. I see that you are a rational person who is trying hard and fairly to defend what you believe is the correct path. But you have to realize that way way way over 50% of chareidim think that your path is far off the beaten track, and you’re going to have to accept that. So to you specifically I will apologize for my tone, but not for my content.

Howzat,
I wasn’t actually suspecting you of posting on Shabbos, but it did look strange enough to bring it up. Thanks for clarifying.
I don’t think it’s productive to this discussion to raise issues of particular communities that virtually no one here is familiar with, aside from us two, and what CS and possibly others have heard from friends. I am not a woman, and I never studied in Bais Rivkah in Melbourne, so I am the wrong person to give a definitive answer on their uniform policy, I’d like for CS to ask her Australian friends who would have learned there for the real story.

Regarding you not being interested in what Chassidus Chabad has to offer after you see the standards of Lubavitch in Australia, I can’t blame you, it’s a hard sell when the salesman doesn’t act the part. Interestingly, Melbourne is probably one of the only large Chabad communities where there is no formal organized attempt to teach Chassidus to other frum people, as in Monsey, Boro Park, Lakewood, Eretz Yisrael, London, Canada, and some other places I’ve probably missed. I think the reason is because they would have very little success. However, there are some very Chassidishe Yidden in the Melbourne community who are role models of the effect that Chassidus can have on a person, people who are exceptionally refined and – dare I say – holy Yidden. There are several huge Talmidei Chachomim among Chabad in Australia, and world renowned Poskim. I’ll drop a few names in no particular order:

R. Yehoram Ulman, Sydney Bais Din
R. Moshe Gutnick, SBD.
R. Mordechai Gutnick, Melbourne Bais Din
R. Faitel Levin, Melbourne, one of the greatest Halachic authorities of our time, and Bli Guzma, the greatest Talmid Chochom in the continent of Australia.
R. Binyomin Cohen, Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva Gedolah, and a tremendous Talmid Chochom.
R. Ahrel Serebryanski, Head Shliach of Australia, and an actual Heilige Yid.

And many more names of younger up and coming Rabbonim. If you look around, you shall find. If I lived in Australia, I’d be able to tell you more. And of course, there are the Chassidim who helped establish Frumkeit in Australia, and Chabad in particular, R. Moshe Feiglin, a Chassid of the Rebbe Rashab who arrived in Australia in 1912, and has the distinction of meriting that all his descendents are Shomrei Torah, something no one else who arrived at that time can claim, to the best of my knowledge. R. Zalman Serebryanski, who arrived in the 40s, and is responsible for much of Frum life in Melbourne today. R. YD Groner who came in the 50s and accomplished tremendous things, and not just in the Chabad community.

So while currently Lubavitch in Melbourne may not be a shining light of Chassidishkait, bear in mind that a vast majority of it’s adherents are Baalei Tshuva, and that if not for the work of those elder Chassidim from the 40s and 50s, there would be far fewer frum people in Melbourne today, not just in the Chabad community.

If it’s just ahavas Yisrael then why don’t the litvish or chassidish do the same? ( Maybe they are lacking in AY).

First of all, it’s not the Yuds anymore. Lubavitch is not the only ones going out anymore. The thing is, that there are so many Litvishers, that they don’t have to go out one by one. They can actually send out a Kvutza at a time.

But really, it’s a question of priorities. I know of Shluchim, that if they just had the opportunity to sit Al HeMenucha VeAl Hanachala in some upstate shtetl, would have become tremendous Rabbonim. As it is, he’s out there working as a Chabad house director[1]. On the other hand, as a Chabad house director, he’s had a direct influence in tens if not hundreds of Mekuravim over the decades, who are now fully Frum and went through Yeshivas. The question is, what’s more important?

So we’ll be proud of the shliach, thanks to who’s Mesirus Nefesh there are now tons of Mitzvas being performed by his students, and his student’s students, ad sof kol hadoros.

There’s a famous story of a certain Gaon who was asked to take the job of a Rosh Yeshiva. He didn’t want to, since he was scared that it would hurt his own personal growth, as he’d have to spend his time preparing Shiur, saying Shiur and answering questions. So he went to the Chofetz Chaim. The Chofetz Chaim told him of a Mashal of an expert shoemaker who was offered a partnership in a shoe factory. He didn’t want to take it, since his shoes were exquisite and expensive works of art, while the factory would produce cheap and shoddy work. But his friend changed his mind. He told him “listen, you make 100 Ruble a shoe, and make one shoe a month. But if your factory will produce 5,000 shoes a month, even if each shoe costs only a Ruble, you still made 4,900 rubles over that month. Even though each shoe’s worth less, the quantity overrides the quality.” So the same thing here, said the Chofetz Chaim. Your Torah study’s great. But the Torah study of a thousand Bachurim, however puny each individual is relative to the Gadol, is still worth it.

But on the other hand, it wouldn’t surprise me if he his children know about the Metziyus of sports (not that they talk about it in their home, Chas VeShalom, but you often can’t help but overhear it from your congregants) or US politics (same as above).

[1]. Just for the record, he still learns, is a Rov, and all of his children are Frum.

“[1]. Try getting a really Yeshivish person to say the words “The Chazon Ish said X. That was just wrong of him, and we’re suffering from his mistake to this day. We should have done Y. He’s human, he erred”. They’ll squirm, and will feel blasphemous uttering such a sentence. Just as we’d feel saying such a thing about the Rebbe.”
Totally false.
I think this is one of the key differences, and is not true. The yeshivish/Litvish community would not squirm in the same way. Half my family is chabad (a few shluchim,a sister and brother in law meshichist), the other half yeshivish. A Gadol is NOT AT ALL a “litvisher Rebbe”. The Litvish community is good at saying “This part of what Gadol X said is wrong” and just cuts it out, ignores it. It’s very common

“You’re dealing here with Yeshivish/Chassidish posters. These are people who really, really respect their Gedolim. And rightfully so. And while they don’t respect them just as much as we respect the Rebbe (as you can see from the past 23 pages), they get pretty close [1]”

Are you nuts? What kind of ignorance is that? You have the audacity to diminish our respect of gedolim? You seem to be clueless to the understanding that what you have done to the rebbes name and torah has probably caused him endless suffering in the next world, and continues to do so as you inch closer and closer to a”z in his name!

Sechel, how many of the infamous’s psak din’s signatures are forged?

And if none how, how is that not representitive of lubavitch?

Lubavitch is in a STATE OF A”Z (ch”v) AND DON’T MISUNDERSTAND IT!
Is something isn’t done to curb it, …

username123321,

“Saying that we’re Kofrim over this [davening late] is another. And getting insulted when we argue back is surprising.”

I don’t think I’ve seem or heard anyone assert that Chabad chassidim are kofrim due to zmanim. Certainly not me. That’s a straw man. The concerns are about the perceived deification of the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT”L and changing the definition of Moshiach to fit him. And the idea that all Jews must accept these precepts or they are spiritually inferior.

@ Username

And while they don’t respect them just as much as we respect the Rebbe (as you can see from the past 23 pages), they get pretty close”

This statement is well beneath the standards of your otherwise articulate and well thought out posts.

YR,
While I strongly disagree with Reuven Wolf, it’s a stretch to call him an Oved Avodah Zara. Being wrong, and being a fool doesn’t make one an idol worshipper. Kol Sh’kein for CS, she is definitely not an idol worshipper. I have seen a letter (it was quoted here earlier) from HaRav Ahron Feldman of Ner Yisrael where he strongly criticizes Mishechistim, but not once does he go so far to call them Ovdei Avodah Zara. That is a gross exaggeration, a slander. Avodah Zara is one of the three most severe Aveiros, don’t throw it out on everyone you disagree with, that’s plain Motzi Shem Ra which is a serious Aveirah too. Trust me, I have more beef with Mishechistim than any non Lubavitcher here, but I’ll stick to true Taanos, not absolute falsehoods.

username: ” So unless you want to close this thread (and get yourself banned, while you’re at it)”

Are you threatening?

@ SH

“I have more beef with Mishechistim than any non Lubavitcher here”

At least we now finally know where the beef is. Cha-ching.

A young BT lady in Crown Neights told me once: “When my baby gets up in the morning, I wash him negel wasser, say “Mode Ani” with him, and let him kiss the picture of the Rebbe”. If that is not AZ, I don’t know what is…
Although the more seasoned chasidim are not into this deification, they should put a stop to such practices. It besmirches the WHOLE chasidus. A pity the Rebbe did not designate a successor.

This is a quote from Chabadtalk that was left for nearly a year with no machah from one of the prominent Moshichists:

I agree with your entire post except for this point. “Fallible” means liable to err or be mistaken. The Rebbe is omnisicient (all knowing) in addition to being a tzaddik and never sinning (even a beinoni never sins!), and when the Rebbe did not quote a pasuk precisely, it was deliberate. Chassidus teaches that every move of a Rebbe is fraught with significance.

(I can’t post links but google should find it.)

CS – Do you agree with this quote?

“But to ask if we think that way and then get all riled up and annoyed any time its mentioned as a response to a query, without providing a serious rebuttal of why WE shouldn’t, is silly”
He did provide a serious rebuttal. Mire than once. Nameky that the title doesnt exist. He made it up !
Why do you pretend everything you dont like didn’t happen?