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CS- do you agree with my lightswitch moshol? And even if not, do you agree that there are elements in Chabad who do?
How does the previous rebbe explain the “sundial story”? What is it? I found a different versions
I have been following both threads by CS from the start.
As an Australian I must admit there are things that Lubavitch do which are great i.e. I’ve used there Chabad centers during some of my stop overs in the Asian region.
BUT WARNING!! The situation is out of control. The amount of frei kids coming out of their school (that’s why Mr. Kornhauser has started a new cheider) is appalling and anyone who thinks their Chassidus is fine and I’m gonna join them, take this as a warning! It’s true that in everyplace anything can happen, and you need tons of Teffilos and Siyata Dishmaya but joining Lubavitch isn’t doing hishtadlus on your behalf to bring up frum normal Yidden. If you would like examples, I’ll give them (I hope the mods won’t delete some of them as some are borderline tzniyus and disgusting)Secondly, after seeing RSO nagging about the Sundial story I went and checked it up myself and yes it doesn’t make sense. If you say the suns rays were blocked by some hilltop far away in the distance that they goyish professors couldn’t see and only the Baal HaTanya could figure it out, then maybe the shade in my backyard in Melbourne is from the Himalayas in Asia. Anyone on this forum can understand that even though there may be huge, massive mountains in their country etc., it is not affecting their shade unless they live in the vicinity of it and they can view it from their position. It does affect the weather but not shade and a sundial works on shade!
@Howzat,
Lubavitch in Australia is absolutely not indicative of Lubavitch in other places, the Australian community is quite far away, and very behind in the ways of Lubavitch in the US and Israel.
And, as you say, they did open a new Cheder, under the auspices of the Head Shliach Rabbi Aaron Serebryanski, may he have a Refua Shleima.I say this not as a last resort defense, but as someone who intimately knows the community you are speaking of.
Secondly, surely you know that the Chabad Centers in Asia and around the world were not created to serve you, a frum You with a hot koshere meal. For this, the Rebbe didn’t send his best and brightest to distant Bangkok or Japan. They are there for the Yid who otherwise won’t be eating Kosher food, and who is visiting Asia for reasons other than his stopover to Europe or Israel from Australia.
Rso you seem to get offended from Lubavitche, everything they do or hold is wrong, just because you weren’t brought up this way. The only thing you say we have zechusim is when you get some kosher food in the middle of nowhere. (Because in the end of the day it’s your life and tummy).
It seems like your little brain is smarter then the whole Lubavitche and the 7 Rebbeim. You still didn’t tell me which model said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.
Yes just because Lubavitche happens to be a very successful through out the world, doesn’t mean you have to find all the problems to put them down and a say all the loshen horoah and moitzi Shem rah.
(By the nachinal menorah Rabbi Shem tov was holding the torch together with him.)
We all have problems that we have to fix, but you for some reason are looking to find them.
Sechel, we know, and we appreciate what chabad does.
But I’m not sure why parts of Chabad have this hangup about helping other frum yidden. I understand it’s not the primary purpose, but when you do, do it with a smile, instead of complaining.
I for one always leave a big donation for every nonmeshichist chabad house I stay at. But I still preferred to be treated as a “special guest” than “unwanted frummie”.
(BTW, I have to pint out to every nonchabadnik reading this thread – Chabad houses recieve no special funding from any organiztion. All fund must be raised by the shliach himself. So if you use their services, and your sure the money will go towards making people frum (as opposed to making people believe in a false messiah) ALWAYS leave a large donation! The shliach and his family needs it!
Aderabe, CS, please say what you have heard from your Australian friends, I don’t know everything.
YR, I have no hangups about helping frum people, I have done so with much pleasure in various places around the world, and all Shluchim I know have done the same. I just don’t like it when people give this as an example of why they like or appreciate Chabad, because they found food in Bangkok or Bangalore, we’re not there for that.
@ CS
Once again you have written that only the Rebbe exerted himself for all yidden whereis other Rabbonim are merely taking care of their own kahillos. You use this to prop up the nossi hador concept.
@ CS
Me: “The point is that outside of your stream of Lubavitch no Rabbonim (including Chabbad ones) endorse what you guys do / believe. Also (and more importantly) , none of the Rebbonim in your circle are recognized as authoritative by any Torah Authority outside.”You: “Both false. Or shall I say the former is incorrect as the majority of respected lubavitcher Rabbonim, if not very many (haven’t done an actual poll) hold like me.
Names please
Chosid: ” You still didn’t tell me which model said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.”
???
“Yes just because Lubavitche happens to be a very successful through out the world, doesn’t mean you have to find all the problems to put them down and a say all the loshen horoah and moitzi Shem rah.”
That’s not why I say all the bad things about them, and your response is typical of lubavich going on the attack instead of addressing the issues. I have said a number of times that lubavich does fantastic things in the area of Ahavas Yisroel, but their hashkofos are really badly messed up. Their chauvinism, which btw is totally misplaced, their claims to have the Mashiach when they are lacking so much tznius and derech eretz, are a joke, and it is that type of activity that I continue to attack.
(By the nachinal menorah Rabbi Shem tov was holding the torch together with him.)”
Yes, you’re right there and I was wrong. However, it is very misleading and I don’t think it should be done that way.
CS: ” I think it’s pretty clear that you don’t regard the Rebbe as a tzadik and pulling apart and responding to that post wouldn’t make a whit of a difference to you”
If you mean, your attempt to pull it apart and rebut, you are 100% correct, as your attempts in that area so far have not convinced any of the posters, including those who have dropped out.
“As far as “Lubavitchers believe what they want and don’t let the facts get in the way ” aside from the fact that sundials are not in use today etc and you don’t know the topography of the given place etc.”
You’re doing it again. Topography has NOTHING to do with it. The story is ridiculous and you are making yourself look even more ridiculous every time you try to justify it. Note, none of the other lubavichers in the forum have argued with me. They don’t understand the story, they probably wouldn’t like to admit that it’s fiction, so they just don’t say anything. But you keep going on about sundials being out of use and who knows what other garbage which just makes you appear really stupid. Sorry, but there isn’t any other word that expresses it correctly. By doing so you make not only yourself look stupid but lubavich too.
“Aside from that, yes science can and does err all the time. It is not absolute. Even by sciences standards everything is a certain percentage of likelihood and there is no 100%. Whereas Torah and Tzaddikim are 100% true.”
Yes. Science can and does err. But this story is fiction.
My advice: say something like, “You have a good point, and I can’t answer your question,” and leave it at that. Cut your losses.
CS, careful you don’t have an attack here because you’re going to be very surprised at what I’m about to say:
You’re explanation about what rankles chabad representatives in their chabad houses made perfect sense! I have absolutely no criticism to level at it!
(And I didn’t even mention a sundial once :). Oops. Now I did.)
@,rso “But you keep going on about sundials being out of use and who knows what other garbage which just makes you appear really stupid. Sorry, but there isn’t any other word that expresses it correctly. By doing so you make not only yourself look stupid but lubavich too.”
The only thing I stupid is that you say that a Rebbes sforim are fiction based on your 3rd grade science class. Is totally outrageous.
Now that doesn’t mean that your not allowed to have questions, but saying right away that it’s all fiction based on your little brain, is really out of place. Did any gadol gold that? Or science master?Chosid: ” You still didn’t tell me which model said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.”
???
You still didn’t tell me which GADOL said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.
That’s not why I say all the bad things about them, and your response is typical of lubavich going on the attack instead of addressing the issues. I have said a number of times that lubavich does fantastic things in the area of Ahavas Yisroel, but their hashkofos are really badly messed up. Their chauvinism, which btw is totally misplaced, their claims to have the Mashiach when they are lacking so much tznius and derech eretz, are a joke, and it is that type of activity that I continue to attack.
Don’t you think theee is something behind there ahavas Yisrael thats getting them to go in this crazy places, with so many challenges, chinuch for there kids, money, no family around them to help, no suda that they don’t have guest, which causes that they can’t give the right amount of attention to there kids, etc. etc. Let me tell you a little secret, it’s there hashkofa that kepps them going.
Have you ever considered that maybe you hashkofa is messed up? Just wondering.
Why does the fact that they are lacking in tzius, make that everything else is wrong? Like I have said before we all have yetzer horah, yes Lubavitcher have yetzer horahs, its not an excuse, rather a fact, some people have hard time not saying loshen horoah and moitzi Shem, and some in other places, and we are all trying to over come it. We are not perfect.
Me: And to the non Jews explain to them the seven noahide laws.”
Rso: The third, bimchilas kvodo, is stam meshigass.
If you can please explain why.Chosid,
You’re funny
In your first post (out of these three) you said gold instead of hold
The only thing I stupid (Probably meant that is)So to knock someone because of a mistake that you knew anyways what he was saying is utterly idiotic
Chosid: “The only thing I stupid is that you say that a Rebbes sforim are fiction based on your 3rd grade science class. Is totally outrageous. Now that doesn’t mean that your not allowed to have questions, but saying right away that it’s all fiction based on your little brain, is really out of place. Did any gadol gold that? Or science master?”
Gee, what’s with “third grade” that really gets you so upset. The point I made was that I first learned about sundials in third grade, not that my understanding of them is only what I learned in third grade. I have since read about sundials numerous times, even after finishing fourth grade!
Get this straight: A sundial can’t be affected the way it says in the story. I challenge you to get any frum, not frum or lehavdil goyishe scientist to explain how the story works. You won’t find anyone who isn’t a lubavicher or drunk (or more likely, both) who will say the story makes sense. Therefore, the story is untrue.
Now, either the Rayatz also didn’t have a clue or he was writing fiction. You choose which one of the two I should believe because there is no third option. The size of my brain, or lack thereof, is irrelevant.
Chossid: “You still didn’t tell me which GADOL said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.”
I don’t know which statement of mine you are referring to, but there are MANY Litvishe gedolim who spoke out openly against your rebbe, and there are also a number of chassidishe rebbes who did.
Chossid: “Don’t you think theee is something behind there ahavas Yisrael thats getting them to go in this crazy places…”
I’m sure on occasion it’s Ahavas Yisrael that is their impetus, but knowing MANY chabad house directors I am also sure that it is often just a matter of finding a job – sometimes a hard job – that gives you kovod within your own circle and in a community of people who don’t know any different.
What about all the fights when shlichim open up chabad houses that encroach on other shlichim’s territories? Is that a manifestation of Ahavas Yisrael?
What about the fights with the “mushrooms” (I’ll let you explain what I am referring to if you feel like it.) If these people are doing the same rebbe’s work that the official shlichim are doing, why are they considered out of line and “mushrooms”?Chossid: “Have you ever considered that maybe you hashkofa is messed up? Just wondering.”
Yes, in fact I often do. And that’s why I have my hashkafos checked regularly during my discussions with erliche talmidei chachomim who are yirei Shamayim, who are far better than me, and who have fundamental beliefs that are accepted across the spectrum of the Torah world, unlike the hashkofos of almost all lubavichers. On the other hand, if you mean do I open an Igros at random to see whether I’m right or not, then the answer is no.
Chossid: “Why does the fact that they are lacking in tzius, make that everything else is wrong?”
That’s a fair question but I have an honest answer. Kedushah is a prerequisite of chassidus and yiras Shamayim. That is what ALL other groups of chassidim were mekabel from the Baal Shem. (It’s possible that lubavich was also mekabel that but somewhere along the line it seems to have been forgotten or just not mentioned.) As a number of us have said in the past, a lack of tznius must mean a lack of kedushah. There is no other way of interpreting it. Therefore, if there is a lack of tznius in lubavich – and I’m not just referring to dress, I’m also referring to mixing of the genders and improper interaction between them in speech and manner, as I’ve also pointed out before – there must be a distinct lack of kedusha. You yourself have admitted that tznius is a problem. So you can’t expect us to accept that lubavich is anywhere near the top of the kedushah pyramid and that we should therefore take your hashkofos in chassidus seriously.
The last paragraph, by the way, was not written vindictively or with any ulterior motive of winning an argument and silencing you or anyone else. It is an honest explanation of why I and others look down on lubavich based on their levels of tznius.
Chossid: “Rso: The third, bimchilas kvodo, is stam meshigass.
If you can please explain why.”There is no inyan of arvus in encouraging goyim to keep their mitzvos. Aderaba the fact that they keep even three things is part of the cause of our lengthy golus. See Chullin bottom of 92a and top of 92b.
Also, it means that when trying to encourage the keeping of the sheva mitzvos more bochurim come in contact with goyim and goyishe values. It’s bad enough when they come in contact with the values that non-frum Yidden have, but this can be even more dangerous.
Furthermore, it is an innovation that is ridiculous because it leads to distorting the Torah. Just look at the “Seven Mitzvos for Sevtnty Nations” cards and pamphlets that are distributed which contain the “mitzvah” of being kind to animals.(Some actually say that the mitzvah is not to eat the limb of a live animal, but the explanation they give below that is to be kind to animals.)
The mitzvah is not to eat eiver min hachai, and that has nothing to do with being kind to animals. If a goy will put an animal to sleep, amputate its leg, and then kill it while it is still asleep, he will be a lot kinder to the animal than when he kills it by shooting it in a forest. But in the former case the leg is eiver min hachai while in the latter it is muttar lechatchillah.I stand by what I wrote that it is a meshigass, and I have NEVER heard a non-lubavicher of any stripe think differently.
BTW, There are tzfatis who give out 7 mitzvos card but add an eighth – the miztvah to believe the Rebbe’s Moshiach. Pictures were posted years ago on the chabadtalk forum.
You can find a similar mindset at the Honk4Joy organization, which encourages NON-JEWS to be mekabel the Rebbe’s messiahship (their words not mine).
This is the path Chabad is heading down if they don’t do something soon.
I was gonna respond to chossid but RSo pretty much nailed it.
CS, I really would like some names. You know, of rabbanim who are considered gedolim by anyone outside your circle who agree with you guys. You said there where many, please share.
Also, still kinda scratching my head in wonderment regarding your contention that only the last Lubavitcher Rebbe did for all of Klal Yisroel whereis the the Gedolim only did for their respective kahilos.
@RSo
“I’m sure on occasion it’s Ahavas Yisrael that is their impetus, but knowing MANY chabad house directors I am also sure that it is often just a matter of finding a job – sometimes a hard job – that gives you kovod within your own circle and in a community of people who don’t know any different.”Interesting point. Would you hold the same of the thousands of yidden learning in kollel (in USA and EY)?
They have strong societal pressure, and get (some sort of) paycheck from it?How about the melamdim, ram”im, roshei yeshivos?
@RSo
“There is no inyan of arvus in encouraging goyim to keep their mitzvos. ”רמב”ם הל’ מלכים פ”ח
וְכֵן צִוָּה משֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִפִּי הַגְּבוּרָה לָכֹף אֶת כָּל בָּאֵי הָעוֹלָם לְקַבֵּל מִצְוֹת שֶׁנִּצְטַוּוּ בְּנֵי נֹחַThe Rebbe based his campaign on this Rambam. Yes, obviously, there are different opinion and there are those who disagree with the Rebbe. But to call ‘stam mishigass’ (instead of perhaps ‘a minority opinion or the like) shows a lack of knowledge on your part.
P.S. The Rebbe did not want it done with cards and the like. There are letters (or more accurately מענות) of the Rebbe to that effect. Additionally, I am almost positive that it was not meant for bochurim but rather those who have contact with non-Jews either way
Classic Chabad reading comprehiension skills….
Hidden does not mean DEAD.
(BTW, the rambam before he says nehrag writes “Im lo Asa Kol zeh” I have never seen a lubavitcher manage to answer up this part of the rambam, instead amny dishonestly edit it out.)
CS – Please tell us how the Rebbe fits with the rambam since you are demonstrating classic chabad reading comprehension skills. The rambam does not paskin like the medrash in daniel, and the Rebbe clearly said the halacha is like the rambam.
Kaiser answered the questions about Sheva Mitzvos well, if you learn the Rebbes Sichos about it, and see various Maanos, it’s clear the Rebbe never intended for people to waltz down the street accosting eino yehudim at random and shoving cards in their face, rather, as the Rebbe explicitly said, those who have day to day contact with non Jews in their environment, must try teach them about their 7 general Mitzvos. (There are far more than 7, seven are the general Mitzvos, but many more branch out of them. I’ll add Mekoros when I get a chance).
As far as Chabad Rabbonim and their opinions whether or not the Rebbe Zy”a will be Moshiach, I’d venture to say that majority aren’t convinced of that, but don’t necessarily make their opinions public. Rabbi Berel Levin wrote much about this, and he came to the conclusion that according to Rambam and the Rebbes own Sichos, the Rebbe cannot be Moshiach. Rabbi Immanuel Schochet A”H stated publicly that it’s highly unlikely for the Rebbe to be Moshiach. I have many other names at the tip of my fingers, but I hesitate to name people who are among the living if they haven’t publicly stated or written so.
Sechel – Why “highly unlikely”? What wrong with plain clear-cut no?
And if most chabadniks hold no, why is Rabbi Sofer considered mechutz lemachene?
Sechel – not an attack – just curious:
How much people whose signatures appear in the infamous psak din have actually signed it? I suspect many of them are forgeries.
Sechel, am I right?
רבי יהודה אומר אלו שלשים צדיקי אומות העולם שאומות העולם מתקיימים עליהם עולא אמר אלו שלשים מצות שקבלו עליהם בני נח ואין מקיימין אלא שלשה אחת
Rabbi Yehuda says: These are the thirty righteous individuals among the nations of the world, in whose merit the nations of the world continue to exist. Ulla says: These are the thirty mitzvot that the descendants of Noah initially accepted upon themselves; but they fulfill only three of them. One of these three mitzvot isRso please explain how you see from the Gemorah you quoted that “Aderaba the fact that they keep even three things is part of the cause of our lengthy golus” I see that since they are ONLY keeping 3 and not ALL is a reason that we are in golus.
Please correct me if I’m wrongkaiserW: “Interesting point. Would you hold the same of the thousands of yidden learning in kollel (in USA and EY)?They have strong societal pressure, and get (some sort of) paycheck from it?
How about the melamdim, ram”im, roshei yeshivos?”100%. We are all no less human than the lubavichers I am criticizing, and we all have our social pressures and inner issues. Just because we may do the right thing and choose the right lifestyle it doesn’t mean that we are doing it for the right reason.
Now obviously it’s better to live a life according to the rules even if it’s not lesheim Shamayim than to live a life that goes against the rules. But it’s another thing again to claim that we are doing it lesheim Shamayim.
The same is true of the chabad houses. To say that they have altruistic motives is being naive, but to say that what they do is very often good is still true. Moreover, once other Yidden benefit from them – whether it’s frum Yidden getting a kosher meal, or non-frum Yidden finding out it is Chanukah – it is automatically a commendable achievement.
CS: “If I’m wrong, simply list another leader of klal Yisrael today who sends out his best and brightest for life to help the frum, not yet frum, and opens institutions to help those who fight him.”
Aside from the claim I have already made earlier that your rebbe’s kavonah in this was to draw attention to himself and to claim the leadership that you have attributed to him, there is another problem. Some of “his best and brightest” have gone off because of being influenced the not yet frum, and Rachmono litzlan MANY lubavich families have kids who have gone off the derech for the same reason. There is clearly a far greater percentage of lubavich kids from frum homes who have gone off than there are in other chassidic groups. Hashem yeracheim!
Your rebbe did not have the long-range view that other rebbes had, and lubavich is suffering from it today. (See my earlier post about tznius.)
One further point. Claiming to care about everybody, and being the only one making a big PR deal about it does not show that he is the only one who really cared.
The Satmarer Rebbe also cared about everybody, which is why he tried to spread his shitah about Zionism all over. He too was concerned that there were Yidden in the far reaches of the world who were, in his view, being accomplices to avodah zoroh. Now you and I don’t agree with that, but we would surely agree that if, say, voting in the Israeli elections is indeed an act of avizraihu d’avodah zoroh, working to prevent it is probably more important than to get someone to put on tefillin. So he cared just as much as your rebbe did.CS – I would like that. Please include the ravs name if you can.
Also ask him why death doesn’t remove a chazakah of mashiach, even though it removes every other chazakah in shas.
CS: “A very respected Mashpia I know of (and respected by all communities of where he lives not just lubavitch,) when asked about the Rebbe being moshiach, simply replies, “Do you have a better candidate?””
This has been a standard lubavich rejoinder for many years. Even before the (alleged) passing of the lubavicher rebbe.
Personally, I know literally hundreds of better candidates that I can name (but won’t here for a number of reasons). They are yirei Hashem, exceptional talmidie chachomim, have limitless ahavas Yisrael without publicizing it, and they have two advantages over the lubavicher rebbe: 1. they do not try to promote themselves, and 2. they don’t put people in spiritual danger by misleading them or allowing them to be influenced badly.
Oh yeah. There is a third advantage: 3. they are alive!
kasierW you didn’t give the full quote of the Rambam:
וכן צוה משה רבינו מפי הגבורה לכוף את כל באי העולם לקבל מצות שנצטוו בני נח, וכל מי שלא יקבל יהרג
This is not shayah nowadays.
You’re claim that the main thrust of the campaign is for people who deal with goyim anyway is interesting. I wonder whether that is the accepted view.
But your claim that your rebbe gave guidelines, and that the cards calling “cruelty to animals’ one of the mitzvos are not “officially” endorsed, is part of the problem.
There is no leadership in lubavich because your rebbe unfortunately didn’t have kids and he didn’t designate a successor. So today it’s איש כל הישר בעיניו יעשה with all opinions claiming that they have the support of the rebbe. As I just recently posted, it shows a lack of long-range thinking.
CS: “Fortunate is he who waits etc.: Forty five years are added to the above number, for our Moshiach is destined to be hidden after he is revealed and to be revealed again…””
The one you believe to be mashiach was never revealed because he isn’t!
I’m sort of disappointed that you haven’t trotted out all the old “proofs” that he is mashiach by misquoting and misinterpreting the sources. You know what I mean. Like, “A king from the House of Dovid”. Well the rebbe was a king, and he was from the house of Dovid because he told us so…
Chossid: “Rso please explain how you see from the Gemorah you quoted that “Aderaba the fact that they keep even three things is part of the cause of our lengthy golus” I see that since they are ONLY keeping 3 and not ALL is a reason that we are in golus.
Please correct me if I’m wrong”I understand Ulla to be saying that it is not 30 tzaddikim of the umos that keep them alive but the three mitzvos that they still keep (and, as an aside, we know that at least two of them are not kept nowadays ayin shom). I see now, though, that it can be interpreted differently.
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