The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

username: ““The phrase “the Rebbe runs the world” is a simple translation of “Tzaddik Gozer VeHakadosh Baruch Hu Mekayem. No more and no less. At least that’s how we take it to mean.”

That’s clearly not what it means. One proof being that your rebbe “demanded” Mashiach and he didn’t come. At least, the rest of the frum world thinks that he didn’t come.

Why is it not akin to apikorsus to claim something that is against FACT and then to base a belief system upon it? Where are all the charomim against them?

Is it Kefira to think nonsense? If I believe Moshiach will sit on my chair before his Hisgalus, what Ikkar am I violating as long as I believe that he’ll be a living male, descendant of Beis Dovid etc. It’s not similar to the “Nebach an Apikores” since the typical “Nebach an Apikores” believes in Kefira, but believes it with a Temimus. So if someone would learn the Gemara and somehow becomes absolutely convinced that Moshiach will be a horse, he would be a Koifer Betmimus. But on the other hand, let’s say someone believes that Bar Kochva’s Moshiach. But before before Bar Kochva soured and was killed, he had to go on a trip to China and lived there for 10 years. In the meanwhile Bar Kochva was killed. Would he be a Nebach an Apikores? He believes in all the Ikkarim. He just made a mistake Bemetziyus. He thought Bar Kochva’s alive but he’s really not.

While Meshichistim aren’t making a mistake. They’re in denial, and using crooked logic to justify denial. But would that be Kefira?

By the way, as I was looking some stuff up, I cam across Moshiachtalk from Rabbi Gil Student (who made the website about 20 years ago to prove that the Lubavitcher Rebbe can’t be Moshiach). He has a Teshuvah from Rabbi Feldman from NIRC, that while Meshichistim are WONG WRONG WRONG WRONG and messed up in the head, they are not Kofrim, are Bichlal Amisecha, you’re allowed to daven in their shuls (but you have to leave or make a protest when they say Yechi), and are kosher Shochtim (!). The only thing is that since they’re so messed up in the head[1], they’re not qualified to be a Rov, and should not be supported in any way so that their false Hashkafa doesn’t spread [2].

And he has a letter from Rabbi Leff where he said “On the other hand, to daven in a shul where the majority have crooked ideas about Yiddishkeit and recite things that have no place as part of the davening, better not to daven in a shul like that. ”

Not that it’s Kefira[3]. Just that it’s very very very wrong and crooked.

So this seems to be this is the attitude that most official Shluchim take (except I don’t know how many of them would Daven in Shuls of Meshichistim, even if those Shuls would be the only ones in the neighborhood). They oppose Meshichistim. They condemn meshichistim. And yes, even in private. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if they rant against Meshichistim more in private than in public. I have quite a few friends who learned in Detroit. If I’d even get close to mentioning something about Yechi, I’d get a tongue lashing. And this is true, by the way, when they’re drunk. They try to shut down their institutions. They’re in a court case trying to get back the main shul in 770. And while it may have been true right after nun daled that Antis were just quiet Meshichisten (I wasn’t around then, so I don’t know the underground politics back then), it was definitely over within a decade. I think it’s part of the Meshichist propaganda to say that all Antis are secret Meshichistim, they same way they turned around and made Reb Aharon Soloveichik[4] into a hidden meshichist.

[1]. He says that Meshichistim are insane for a different reason. He said that believing that a person who passed away isn’t exactly Kefira, it’s insane to think that of all the Rabbis over the thousands of years, it will be the Rebbe. The thing is, that most of them deny that the Rebbe ever passed away to begin with, so that reason of insanity doesn’t apply. But there definitely are other reasons why they are insane, as mentioned above.

[2]. I suspect some Meshichist is going to jump out (like they did when Rabbi Aharon Soloveitchik from Chicago wrote his letter) and say “You see!! He’s fine with Meshichistim!!” He’s not. He opposed them and thought that they’re wrong. The only thing that he said was literally “it cannot be dismissed as outside the pale of orthodoxy”. That’s absolutely not an endorsement. Typical lack of reading comprehension from their part.

[3]. I strongly suspect that Rabbi Gil Student cherry-picked the responsa that he published to be palatable to Lubavitch, and that’s why he didn’t publish letters from Rav Shach and others, for example, because my suspicion was that the point of this website was to convince Lubavitcher Meshichistim to drop it (which is why he has also has letters and Kol Korehs from Lubavitcher Antis from back then). But either way, I don’t think that Rabbi Feldman would write an Halachically untrue letter to sound palatable to us.

[4]. It’s another interesting thing, as I’m not even sure how respected was he in the right-wing Yeshivish world. I don’t think that he was seen as his brother (the Rosh Yeshiva of YU), but I don’t think he was seen as his cousins (the current Brisker Rabbonim in Yerushalayim). Could be that since he lived OOT, he was just not so well known. I honestly don’t know.

So RSo and others: I think it’s established that Username is besoch Amesacha from his posts.

However, the others I’m not quite sure about. It’s a reflection on the Rebbe’s shortsightedness that he didn’t envision all of this coming.

Username: The fact that meshichists say “The rebbe is Mashiach” isn’t kefira. It’s everything else they say (The rebbe watches you, he’s omniscient, omnipotent, never made a mistake, etc.”

If you don’t believe me, read chabadtalk “Did the rebbe ever make a mistake”. There’s a clearcut line between the meshichists and the antis.

please, if you can offer a reasonable alternative, I’d like to hear

Denial.

<blovkquote>
IOW, insanity?

Yup.

This is great- username (and Sechel)- I’ve never, ever heard a lubavitcher willing to state unequivocally that the rebbe is not moshiach, and I’m glad we’ve actually found a couple. There are still unanswered questions, the practices/shittos that username tried to defend a couple posts ago (all seeing, all knowing, usually =Hashem), but at least we’ve narrowed the playing field from out and out heresy like wolf (and CS, sorry) to shverre taanos on most of chabad, and their inability to curb the “1%” (which I personally believe is something like 80%) from being vocal loony wackos. I’ll ask some more questions soon.

Oh. And a further point. I am absolutely Moche CS calling the Rebbe “not normal”. I would protest if anyone else did it, and I protest it from you.

the Rebbe wasn’t as “normal”

Did I just hear this from a Lubavitcher??!! I could see Toi or DY making this claim, but a Shlucha?!

CS – it was on the Beis Moshiach article that TOI referenced. Google my quotes in quotes, it’ll pop up.

Now are you prepared to defend Wolf? Because he said everything I quoted.

Also – quote from CS
“my husband and I were discussing how by hashgacha protis, there’s a new spirit sweeping the world- one against cover up, political correctness and fake news culture, and how its going to help towards getting the world ready for moshiach…. ”
According to Wolf, the Rebbe sent the spirit for this very purpose. Are you married to him? And if not, do you agree with him?

Anyhow I would say he is more to the right than center simply because he is less chicken than most mainstream to speak publicly to non lubavitchers and lubavitchers alike on what he believes in…

Can you please stop putting words in other people’s mouth.

Chossid: “I really think that there is something behind all these comments and complaints that you guys say against chabad, which might be something you’re upset about, or you don’t want it change your mindset, or you’re scared someone might mock you if you hold like this”

From the “What to Say to a Snag” handbook, response no. 143: Tell them that they are just scared to admit the truth..

I believe I’m speaking for more than just myself here. We are not “upset” about anything, and we certainly don’t want to change our mindset because we believe that lubavichers’ beliefs range from mild lunacy and denial of the facts to out and out apikorsus. You are one of the mild ones, but you still talk garbage when it comes to trying to “correct” our errant ways. The part I quoted above is just one proof.

“Rav Shtieman told them they shouldn’t open a separate one, rather they should send their kids to the chabad School. (I heard this from the shliachs son in law).”
The story may be true, I have no idea, but you don’t even realize how ridiculous it is for you to quote a pro-lubavich story like that citing a lubavicher as its source!

“When someone does moifsim and has roach hakodesh”
I believe that Shabsei Zvi sr”y did all that too. It proves nothing. (And just to upset you, I am only using SZ as a rebuttal. Any resemblance to anyone alive or dead is merely coincidental.)

“Now regarding the claims that the friediker Rebbe wrote negative about misnagdim. To my knowledge he only went against the haskalah movement ”
Read the book and you’ll see otherwise. Unless you try to claim that all the misnagdim of Shklov and elsewhere he discusses were closet maskilim…

“By you guys, there is a book that came out from professor Berger, saying our shchita is treif”
He may have written that, I don’t know, but don’t take the statements of one person as a proof to what all of us “snags” believe. For the same token I can claim that you are an Elokist.

“(Sundial we still have to figure out and discuss)”
I consider the sundial story of utmost importance, not something to be merely put aside for a while, as it shows how the Rayatz wrote fiction.

username: “While Meshichistim aren’t making a mistake. They’re in denial, and using crooked logic to justify denial. But would that be Kefira?”
On its own maybe not, but when they then say (and I have personally heard this more than once from meshichisten), “The gemoro says that Mashiach can be from a dead man [Btw this is a distortion of the gemara – see Rashi there], so I can say it’s the rebbe,” that is apikorsus! It’s like saying, “The gemara says you can’t cook on Shabbos so I say you can’t cook on Wednesdays.” Or, “The Torah says לא תבערו אש, so we can’t have hot food on Shabbos” (recognize the last view?).

“They oppose Meshichistim. They condemn meshichistim. And yes, even in private. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if they rant against Meshichistim more in private than in public.”
They do, and I’ve heard it. But 99% of the time it’s not because they don’t believe the lubavicher rebbe is Mashiach. It’s because it repels people and makes it difficult for the chabad institutions to attract new faces.

“I have quite a few friends who learned in Detroit. If I’d even get close to mentioning something about Yechi, I’d get a tongue lashing.”
Detroit is the epitome of the “antis” and they are hated by most of the mainstream lubavicher yeshivos, so don’t bring them as a proof to the standard lubavich view.

CS,
That’s very cheap. Because you don’t like my opinions you don’t get to invoke “Detroiter Bochurim”. Clearly, you’ve never met a Detroiter, plus, I never learned in Detroit a day in my life.

And, how dare you call the Rebbe not normal? Because you choose to twist his words, and then decide it’s not normal, and then not normal becomes a positive thing?

Or like Rabbeinu HaKadosh after his petira came back and was motzei his family with kiddush, which means he was in a full on physical body because otherwise couldn’t be motzi)

So can you find me a source that this is happening now? You won’t be able to, because since 27 Adar 1 5752, there were no Sichos. So obviously there’s no explicit “this is how you should behave now”, and there were no revelations to Elter Chassidim (who were raui to receive Ruach HaKodesh), we have no reason to assume that that’s happening.

The only thing we have is a Tzavaah, Aguch’s decisions, and the Rebbe’s behavior after 5710, where the Rebbe said Kaddish for the Frierdiker Rebbe. The Rebbe instituted the Minhagei Yartzeit for the Frierdiker Rebbe. There was never a Shvil for the Frierdiker Rebbe. The Rebbe used the title “Ziya” (which is the conventional title in Lubavitch to a Rebbe who passed away) on every single sefer of the Frierdiker Rebbe and in every Maamar where he referenced the Frierdiker Rebbe.

The problem is when people cherry-pick what the Rebbe said once, and take that over something that the Rebbe said hundreds of times. And the problem comes from Shelo Shimshu Kol Tzorchan (And that Shimush has to come from the right person. You know the famous line, that “Eisav also had a Rov”). When you learn Kabbalah, actually, even when you learn Gemara, you absolutely need Shimush to not mess up. For example, if you learn the second chapter of Chagiga literally, you’re a Kofer. But the Gemara’s not Kefira, you just took it wrong.

Another example of what I’ve read (I saw an essay by someone, I think it’s Reb Yoel Kahn) is that the Rebbe Rashab wrote in the first Maamar in 5659 the importance of davening out loud, and how Kol MeOrer Hakavanah. So someone would read that, and say “OK. There’s this clear Maamar which says that the louder you daven, the better” and would scream through davening. But yet, somehow, that never became a Lubavitch minhag. And not even by the Hamon Am, but by the great Mashpiyim. And the reason is that they had enough Shimush to know when the Rebbe means something literally, and when the Rebbe means something spiritually.

And this Shimush comes from being around Elter Chossidim and Rabbonim, and actually being Mekabel from them. And Aguch, the official group of Luabvitch Elter Chossidim decided right after 3 Tammuz that Lubavitch is Anti.

CS: “But the Rebbe always based himself on solid ground.”

(I just HAVE to say this line. It’s too good to resist. My apologies in advance):
That’s exactly what Korach said about his views.

CS – you misunderstood me – I was asking of you thought THE REBBE sent the spirit, or if it was merely Hashem. There’s no Tzadik gozer on something like this.

SH,

Why are you so vehemently against Rabbi Dr. Berger? If anything he was on your side. Did you even read his book? He was trying to rally RCA and Aguda Rabbonim to publicly support people like you and Username and your Rebbonim from the get go and prevent (or at least minimize) the current train wreck.