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Coffee Addict, it makes them feel less bad about themselves.
Good point and there’s two things that came to mind because of the way you wrote it
1) it makes them feel less bad but it doesn’t make them feel good
2) they can think it but why post it, I’ve thought of things that will slam someone else before but I realized it wouldn’t amount to anything so I changed my wording, one can think before he posts even if he/she doesn’t when they talk
Cuckoo? Some might say the process borders on somewhere between nichush and Chover chaver v’doresh el hameisim.
“Over 25 years is a long time to wait for the “immediate redemption” as the Lubavitcher Rebbe used to say “now”! How much Yiddishe suffering has there been in those years?”
I really dont think people should use that argument, Jewish history has been frought with much dispare, from The crusades, to explulsions, to poverty, to discrimination to Gas Chambers. We dont live in anything like those times
The Redemption of Humankind and the World is a process that unfolds over time. It is not a one-off/click-of-the fingers event.
It has actually been underway for quite awhile now, as the person described by Maimonides’ Twelfth Article of Faith has been doing his correcting/educating/counter-balancing work down here on terra firma since late 1995.
Readers of this article and these comments may like to answer the following Multiple Choice Question. (I have presented it to quite a few people since 2002.) How you answer it says a lot about your frame of reference/religious beliefs/Judaism.
Do you think “Moshiach”
A- Is a type of Polish stew best served in winter. : )
B- Is a silly old concept with no relevance to today. (Many Reform, Progressive, Masorti Jews believe this)
C- Is satisfied by the State of Israel itself. i.e. It does not imply an actual person. (The Uber Zionist position)
D- Has already lived and will return in a Second Coming. (The Christian and Mishichist Lubavitch view)
E- Has not been born yet. He is yet to come.
F- Is a metaphor for an age of peace. i.e. It does not imply an actual person. (Ditto B above et al.)
G- Is alive and breathing right now doing his work.שַׁבָּת שָׁלוֹם
Adam Neira
World Peace 2050
Founded April 2000Midwesterner- CS doesn’t reply to my posts, hiding behind some sort of ‘lack of civility’ veil. It’s the result of a thread where the whole chabad got trashed about still davening to a dead Rebbe. I don’t care whether or not she addresses my posts, I still feel it’s important to point out when she slips in things that the average reader may not pick up on, and when the chabad hiskashrus/occasional avoda zara creeps in. When I write cuckoo, I really mean everything you wrote, I just don’t have the koiach to do it every time.
I am also Chabad. Like all of us, I was totally devastated on that Gimmel Tammuz 24 years ago. Just as Hashem stopped the sun for Yeoshua to win the battle on THAT Gimmel Tammuz, so too will Hashem allow our sun to continue. Each day we all daven for Moshiach and pledge that we KNOW that we will see techis hamaisim in shmona esrei.
Zahavasdad quoting me and then adding to it:
“Over 25 years is a long time to wait for the “immediate redemption” as the Lubavitcher Rebbe used to say “now”! How much Yiddishe suffering has there been in those years?”
I really dont think people should use that argument, Jewish history has been frought with much dispare, from The crusades, to explulsions, to poverty, to discrimination to Gas Chambers. We dont live in anything like those times
Now me: That’s not the point I was making. The lubavitch rebbe said Mashiach is coming “NOW” and to keep believing that he was right more than 25 years after he died and saying that it is still “NOW” even though so many Yidden have suffered is ridiculous.
Correction to what I just posted: It isn’t more than 25 years since he died, but it IS more than 25 years since he last made any public statement, including that Mashiach will come NOW.
To make a statement
As long as “Frum” boys and girls schools around the world keep turning away children looking for a Torah education, the Geulah is FAR FAR AWAY.
Until a REAL GADOL arises in Klal Yisroel and stops the spilling of the blood of thousands of innocent jewish boys and girls each year the galus will continue and continue and continue. Anyone who thinks we can keep ignoring THE NUMBER ONE PROBLEM in Klal Yisroel is fooling themselves.
Rav Yehoshua ben Gamla is spinning in his grave at how todays generation TRAMPLES on his Takana of a Torah education for each child.
I love these self-appointed prophets, who seem to have an exclusive knowledge of what’s preventing the Geula. Did a malach come tell you so? Did Hashem speak to you in a nevuah? Were you doresh es hameisim, and they told you what’s going on upstairs? No? Oh, you mean you just feel strongly about the issue? Oh, okay, but you have no clue what you’re talking about- your emotions don’t mean a thing mister, sorry.
I noticed a verse in today’s Haftarah that seems relevant to this topic:
So said Hashem: Observe justice and perform righteousness, for imminent is My salvation to come about, and My righteousness to be revealed.
Isaiah 56:1CS, you asked if I am making a statement or want clarification. I would love clarification but I know I won’t get it from you. Every since a few months ago when you started that thread about Meshichists I could see that you espouse lubavitch propaganda without realizing that so much of it doesn’t make a word of sense to anyone who does not believe that everything your rebbe said is absolutely correct.
So, in a nutshell, if you can clarify without being based on sources which most of us find “questionable” (to say the least) then go ahead. Otherwise, why waste your time? We don’t believe in the distortion of the truth that you claim to be facts.
“Until a REAL GADOL arises in Klal Yisroel ”
While there could be some validity to that,
Problem is the ones who raise those complaints are invariably the ones who attack the GADOL when he attempts to take on challenges in a way even slighty at variance with their interests /desiresDuvidf wrote: “Until a REAL GADOL arises in Klal Yisroel ”
Once again I have to be mocheh, and I would expect others to be mocheh as well. There is more than one REAL GADOL in Klal Yisroel. There always has been and there always will be.
As “It is Time for Truth” wrote, more or less, just because the gadol doesn’t agree with you it does not mean that he is not a gadol.
Adam, first of all, there are two Mashiachs: Mashiach ben Yosef, whose job is kibbutz galuyot and building the material aspect of EY, and Mashiach ben David, who job is to build the spiritual aspect (Kol HaTor by Rabbi Hillel Rivlin). Rav Kook (HMisped b’Yerushalaym – said at a gathering to commemorate the conclusion of the shiva for Herzl) held that the Zionist movement in general was the ikva d’MBY. The text can be accessed online. There is also has a commentary (in Hebrew) on the Betel Yeshiva site .
Avi, the Zionist-Meshichist shittah agrees neither with Chabad nor any mainstream Charedim (ie. those of us who don’t believe moshiach is here yet because, you know, he isn’t…). I’m not sure why you brought that into this thread. Was it do defend Chabad Meshichism?
Neville,
1. So what if Rav Kook’s sheeta does not agree with them?
2. There are actually two mashiachs. This is explicit in the Gemara (Sukka 52a). According to Rabbi Hillel Rivlin’s exposition of the Gra’s sheeta it is clear that Mashiach ben Yosef is here.
3. The thread is about the Geula being here. The Geula unfolds slowly in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1).“1. So what if Rav Kook’s sheeta does not agree with them?”
Nothing; I didn’t mean there was anything wrong with it disagreeing with them. I just didn’t see what you were bringing to this thread since that shittah has nothing to do with Chabad.
“According to Rabbi Hillel Rivlin’s exposition of the Gra’s sheeta it is clear that Mashiach ben Yosef is here.”
OK, then who is he? Where is there proof that you’re allowed to believe Moshiach is an abstract concept and not a physical person?
Neville, Rav Kook seems to say that he is a movement. Perhaps he is the State of Israel. This might not be an abstract concept but an entity. Similarly, both Rav Kook and Rav Soloveichik say that a tzibbor is an entity by itself. Thus, according to RS, we continue to say Chazarat HaShatz even though all have siddurim and need not motzied. RK goes on to say that unlike other nations, which are only collections of individuals, Am Yisrael is a collective entity with the individual its limbs and organs similar to the relationship between an individual person and his limbs and organs.
OK, then who is he? Where is there proof that you’re allowed to believe Moshiach is an abstract concept and not a physical person?
I once heard in the name of the talmidim of the gra (or talmidim of a talmid that moshiach Ben Yosef is klal yisrael in eretz yisrael and moshiach Ben Yosef doesn’t have to die if it survives past 5751
1. This seems to be Rav Kook’s sheeta.
2. I never heard that. However, according to the Gra if Am Yisrael prays for him he will not die,Interestingly though 5751 was the year of the Oslo accords.
Avi,
It was the year of the gulf war too which was what I was told I t was referring to
The place where it was learned out from was oz yashir “amar oyeiv erdof asig (the roshei teivos of the passuk until nafshi or arik)
It could’ve been 5750, I never really saw it inside
“Rav Kook seems to say that he is a movement. Perhaps he is the State of Israel. This might not be an abstract concept but an entity.”
I don’t really want to get into anything, but why are people so especially harsh on Chabad Meshichism when mainstream religious-Zionist thought is equally messianist? If anything, shouldn’t picking the wrong guy as Moshiach be less of a problem than rewriting the entire concept itself to fit your beliefs?
CS I think that’s a wise move. You won’t convince me and many of the others that your logic isn’t flawed, and it seems quite clear to me that you won’t be convinced by us.
The only fault I find in your most recent post is that “moshiach has to come”. It’s true of course that he has to come because Hashem has promised as much, but he doesn’t “have” to come because people have decided that he does, which I believe is what you and other lubavitchers believe.
Rav Ahron Soloveichik said that his brother was chozer/retreated and revised virtually everything he had held by mid ’70s from his previous positions on Zionism as well as many others topics . it is actually pretty clear from his writings and interviews that he did.
For the many who find that too inconvenient,they have an easy out..just claim his later disciples were the guilty revisionists‘
As many great men each their own inimitable styles said about Rav Kook
His dear Ahavah was ‘Mikalkeles es hashurah ‘and led him to veer a off alittleCS-“This one was about how the world is ready for the Geula – and all input is welcome, not just Chabad.”
-with all due respect, those who read between the lines know that your main motive for opening this thread is to prove chabad to be correct. “Dont misunderstand us”, already you made it about yourself so you arent fooling anyone by playing the double sided card as is so often used whenever you guys bring up any topic. Like, “ya everyone chime in we respect everyones opinion even though (secretly) only the chabad opinion counts but ya lets hear it great”! ; (
Closing statement from your opening post-“So that’s what we mean when we say the world is ready for the Geula or the world is in a state of Geula.”
-uhh….ok? So do you want a medal for that? What other response were you looking for other than “oh ya you guys are right about everything including this one, good job guys you’re the best”!
I mean, really now. Did you expect everyone to shout kiddush lubavitch! or the like?It, that is a complement. Chazal also said it about Avraham Avinu saddling his own donkey.
By the 90s, the Rebbe told us the world is all ready for the Geula, everything that was needed has been accomplished, and the only thing he could think of why were still in golus is because it has to come from us!
He should have reconsidered his thought that everything that was needed had been accomplished.
This is classic chabad double speak. Sorta like all the liberal comedians who say awful,t hings about the president and his family- “I didn’t think anyone would take me so seriously, after all, I’m just a comedian”
Let’s live the Geula! It’s time for Geula! The Geula’s here! The rebbe said so!
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Oh, no, I didn’t actually mean anything by it…“…with a demand for the complete Geulah…”
We don’t demand things from Hashem. When we daven, we express yearning. When you demand, you’re stamping your feet like some spoiled, entitled child. No-one else seems to view chazal’s emphasis on davening for Moshiach/ the Geula as a call to be the latter.
Tzaddikim can see things in the spiritual realms as clearly as we can see things here, if not clearer…
And we know he was a tzaddik who was omniscient because he told us. Got it.
“The Rebbe was standing higher so he saw further.”
But the Rebbe also “saw” that Moshiach was coming miyad mamash…
DY, you better watch out, I’ve got a feeling you’re awfully close to being charged with sinas chinam…
Really, what do you gain from knocking Lubavitchers?
What’s all this “chabadniks” and “you guys”
Thanks for the reply CS but it isn’t a valid reply, as others have already explained.
It’s one thing to ask or entreat Hashem desperately that Mashiach should come (even though there are some sefarim that say that that should NOT be the main thrust of our tefillos for Mashiach – but I won’t go there because lubavitch obviously disagrees with that) and to say “he HAS TO come”. The first is fine/good. The second is wrong!
Furthermore, your reply to me from your source book is also not a valid reply. There is a HUGE difference between saying that if we do this-and-this Mashiach will come immediately to saying that he is DEFINITELY coming NOW and today. And that is what the Lubvitcher Rebbe said over 25 years ago – did he not say numerous times that you have to believe that Mashiach is coming today, and if you don’t then you do not have proper belief in the coming of Mashiach? But Mashiach hasn’t come. So he was wrong! That is what I see and that is what every single non-Lubavitcher I have ever discussed the topic with sees regardless of where they rank the Lubavitchr rebbe on the tzaddik scale. I don’t believe that there is anything you can write that will convince us otherwise.
Finally, you wrote that the Luvbitcher Rebbe said that there is nothing left to do except it is up to us.
1. That doesn’t make sense. If we have already “polished the buttons” then what is there for us to do?
2. Hashem is emess and totally just. If everything has been done then Mashiach would have come! He hasn’t come so not everything has been done! What the lubvitcher rebbe said is getting mighty close to finding fault with Hashem c’v!And with your interpretation of the famous sicha where he said it is up to us you are following Lubavitch revisionist lines. What he said was that he can’t do any more and he’s leaving it up to his chassidim. A short time later he revised it, or it was revised by others, and he said that what is missing is the will of the chassidim. It’s a change and a significant one. You and so many others have conveniently adopted the revision so that you can continue to believe in whatever it is you want to.
“Demanding lama nigara”?! Demanding?! Where on earth did that bit of alternate Torah reading come from?
coffee addict-“Really, what do you gain from knocking Lubavitchers?
What’s all this “chabadniks” and “you guys””””””
-Really what do lubavitchers gain from knocking Litvishers and Satmar and everyone else for that matter?
Whats with all this “snags”, “misnagdim”, “yoilys”, whats with all these topics on if its ok and encouraged to laugh and mocks Litvaks as if its actually a debatable matter,
non-stop articles on chabad sites portraying all non chabad Yidden in a bad way, only posting non chabad articles if it pertains to something negative-with such hateful comments that will make you puke (in case you thought the comments here were bad),
“farbrengens” also known as bash fests filled with challenges of how many times you can mention the word misnagdim and say that they have nothing in their lives and that their Torah is worthless since they “dont have chassidus”, criticizing those “filthy Satmar Ungars” for trying to invest in real estate near the vicinity of crown heights and trying to “destroy” lubavitch, articles bashing Litvish Gedoilim from past to present, belittling the GR”A calling him by his first name, comparing the Chazon Ish Torah knowledge to that of a little chabad boy learning Tanya and saying they are on the same level of greatness, Saying Yimach Shemo on a Litvish Gadol who they cant get enough of berating, playing both the victim when its convenient but also attacking and ridiculing EVERYONE else who isnt like them (in the frum world), the list goes on and on should I continue? I mean seriously, “whats with all that”?
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