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is a sign of what the movement believes in.
My point is that there’s no real “movement”. I’ll give you a Mashal. Take Breslov. There are Na Nachs and there are Yerushalmim. Is it a Yerushalmi Breslover’s fault that Na Nachs exist?
(we already said that were leaving Litvaks out of this)
You see, I’ll understand if a guy from Meah Shearim, who is in Kollel learning all day and keeping all the Chumros feels that by becoming Lubavitch he’ll go down in Ruchniyus. I’ll argue with him over it, but I’ll understand.
What I don’t understand is when people who keep less than we do complain how “Lubavitch isn’t frum!!!!” Yes, we may not be as sheltered, and Tznius happens to be an issue. But 95% of the people complaining about us aren’t Chassidishers. There are tons of people, who are more Maikil than Lubavitch in pretty much everything except for Zman Tefilla and possible Tznius (it depends against which Lubavitchers your comparing to).
all those people I personally know who use the fact that they learn chabad chassidus as an excuse for davening late, talking incessantly during davening, not learning Gemoro. If they didn’t have that excuse they would be a lot better in many ways. And don’t counter with the standard argument of “imagine how bad they would be if they didn’t learn chassidus” because I knew a number of them before they began learning chassidus and they were standard regular Yidden who davened with a minyan, were basically quiet in shul etc.
The same way that I see that most Lubavitchers that go “Litvish” (and there aren’t so many of them, honestly) are really going to MO and are doing it for an excuse to shave, go to college and get a good secular education. I don’t know anyone (well, except burntface, but I don’t think I know him personally) that switched to Brisk, Lakewood or Chassidish.
But there are people who switched to Lubavitch for the Hisbonenus and Avodas HaTefilla, and they’re doing fine.
woah! it seems from your own writing that you also struggle with gaavah and judging others. delusions of grandeur much?
if you honestly claim that he doesn’t denigrate misnagdim as a whole
So you have a problem that the Frierdiker Rebbe denigrated anonymous Misnagdim. And I don’t think Frierdiker Rebbe meant to denigrate all Misnagdim, and he definitely did not denigrate the Gedolei Hamisnagdim.
Yet, in this thread, you had someone explicitly calling the Mitteler Rebbe a liar[1]. Without any source (just a conjecture, which itself has no source or foundation – he never actually said that he talked to a Chassidisher Rov who told him that Chassidisher Derech HaPsak ignores the Alter Rebbe completely. And even if it’s true, he’ll trust a modern Chossidisher Rov over a second hand source over what happened over two hundred years ago, just because he’s not Lubavitch). And no one called him out on this! Lo YeUman Ki Yesupar.
[1]. And you can’t say “well, it was a work of fiction”. You don’t write “fiction” in a Hakdama to the Shulchan Aruch. It’s either truth, or a lie. And rather than think a bit trying to farentfer the sons of the Alter Rebbe, he just called them liars. Can you imagine the righteous indignation if one of us said that about Reb Chaim Volozhener?
But, as quoted earlier by someone else, the lubavich rebbe wrote that a rebbe (only of his caliber, of course) can be davened to R”L.
Lo Haya VeLo Nivra.
And by the way, I’m still waiting for answers to my previous questions 🙂 :
1. What Hetter is there, in Shas or Poskim, for Yeshiva Bochurim to not daven a proper Chazaras HaShatz by Mincha? Now even if you’ll Taanah that back in Slabodka (where I think this minhag originated) they lived Toraso Umnaso, how does this apply in the US, where you have breaks for lunch and breakfast, and in some Yeshivas for Limmudei Chol. I find it hard to believe that you can’t find 5 minutes in a day to do a Chazaras Hashatz like the Chachamim decreed.
2. What’s the Maaseh with Brisk and fasting? I’ve been hearing jokes about “Pikuach Nefesh”. I definitely hope that no one has ever broken a fast without a proper doctor’s note.
3. What’s the deal with shaving? Yes, I know that most Litvishe Poskim are Mattir, but there are places which say that it’s Assur. And nobody says that it’s a Mitzvah. So why do Yeshivas require their Bochurim to put themselves in a possible Issur DeOraisa.
I’m asking for Litivshers here.
“And no one called him out on this! ”
Sure, you just did.“What Hetter is there, in Shas or Poskim, for Yeshiva Bochurim to not daven a proper Chazaras HaShatz by Mincha”
I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about. Litvish Yeshiva bochrim are notorious for davening dramatically long shmoneh esreis.“What’s the Maaseh with Brisk and fasting”
I’ve only heard that in regards to JB Soleveitchik. He does not represent Brisk despite his yichus. Also, I don’t know if it’s true.“What’s the deal with shaving? Yes, I know that most Litvishe Poskim are Mattir, but there are places which say that it’s Assur.”
You clearly have your answer. You want us to be choshesh for every opinion we don’t hold by? You guys most certainly aren’t; why should we be? We hold it’s mutar, so we shave.
Neville,
After you accused us of not learning Shulchan Aruch, I posted some questions to you to determine if you even learn Shulchan Aruch. I still haven’t received an answer.
The questions were:
What are the שבעה טעמי הדחה קמייתא?
What are the two reasons for איסור דבוק?
Do we say אין בישול אחר בישול בבשר בחלב?These are fairly easy questions that anyone who is Osek in Shulchan Aruch should be able to answer, or at the very least, find the answer to.
“But 95% of the people complaining about us aren’t Chassidishers. There are tons of people, who are more Maikil than Lubavitch in pretty much everything except for Zman Tefilla and possible Tznius”
This is the problem, you think Chabad’s chumras in other areas justify laxity in the halachas in these areas. Meaning like this: “Chabad has beards, keeps pas yisroel, wraps Rabbeinu Tam tefillin, etc. Therefore, if someone doesn’t do these things, they can’t criticize us for our kulas.”
These chumras are middos Chassidus and we respect them, but don’t hold them to be meakev. Zman hatefillah, fasting before shachris, sleeping in the sukkah, who counts in a minyan, etc. these are all meakev (at least according to all poskim prior to Chabad). So, it’s better for someone to always keep the ikkar hadin than to keep a mixture of chumras and assur hanhagos.
I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about
The Heicha Kedusha by Mincha.
woah! it seems from your own writing that you also struggle with gaavah and judging others. delusions of grandeur much?
It’s a shocker. I know. Lubavitchers believe that their Derech is more true than the other ones.
Why did you think we’re Lubavitch? For the herring?
The thing is, we don’t look down at others. We’ll drink your wine, trust your Kashrus, learn your Seforim, and daven in your shuls. We don’t trash talk the Gedolim. You’re Bichlal Amisecha. When you come visit different holes, we’ll host you. Yeah, we’re proud of our Chumros to some extent, but I’d like to point out it took about 18 pages for it to come out. We didn’t just show up and say “Hey, I’m better than you.” It’s just that there’s an unfortunate misconception that all Lubavitchers are modern. We’re not.
“fasting before shachris,”
The Tzemach Tzedek is a serious heavy hitting Posek. Ever opened up a Shu”t Tzemach Tzedek? Or Chidushei Tzemach Tzedek Al HaShas?
(As an aside, did you even know that our Rebbeim wrote Chidushim Al HaShas? Did you know that the Rebbe has volumes of Chidushim Al HaShas?)username123321,
“It’s a shocker. I know. Lubavitchers believe that their Derech is more true than the other ones.”
I don’t think anyone has a problem with that. The problem arises when people perceive that they are being missionized. Because, another shocker, I know, Litvish, Satmer, Sefardim, etc. also believe that their own derachim are more true than the other ones. And yet, you’ll argue with them over it as you noted above. Don’t get all offended when they argue back.
username123321,
“The Heicha Kedusha by Mincha.”
Watch out for the pot calling the kettle black. The only time I have ever witnessed a “heicha kedusha” davening within the Orthodox sphere was at a Chabad house for shacharis. And I’ve been to Chabad events where a minyan was present, and yet the rabbi refused to set up a mincha minyan, even though it was a small town and there certainly wasn’t any other mincha minyans available. Even the chol hamoed mincha at the zoo by the elephants I went to once had a full chazaras hashas.
@ Chossid
“you don’t ky what a Rebbe is”
Sure we do.
” you got to have real evidence and rayes. Not just relying on what you hear.”
Right. I have been saying this all along.
“And besides the point who are we to argue, in order for someone to have a shita against chabad you need to somewhat be equivalent to a Rebbe or a godel.”
There where plenty Gedolim who did just that
.
“All I see is that most of the world holds that the Rebbe was a tzadik and made miracles for everyone, and had ruach hakidesh.”Didn’t you just say before that one has to be a Gadol to have a daiya. I think you will be hard pressed to show evidence that MOST Gedolim hold of the above claim.
“So you need to have big plaitzes to say against his tzidkus.”
Who on this post (or previous posts) “said against his tzidkus”? There certainly where Gedolim with more than adequate sized plaitzes who did, and some posters may have cited their words.
You also asked if I learn the Ramchal’s chassidus or am only bringing him up for political reasons
1) As I pointed out earlier the Ramchal predates what you call chassidus. Are you asking me if I learn the Ramchal’s works on Chachmas HaEmes?
2) Did you notice my handle, I’m “non-political” 🙂1. What Hetter is there, in Shas or Poskim, for Yeshiva Bochurim to not daven a proper Chazaras HaShatz by Mincha? Now even if you’ll Taanah that back in Slabodka (where I think this minhag originated) they lived Toraso Umnaso, how does this apply in the US, where you have breaks for lunch and breakfast, and in some Yeshivas for Limmudei Chol. I find it hard to believe that you can’t find 5 minutes in a day to do a Chazaras Hashatz like the Chachamim decreed.
R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky is quoted as saying that the original takana to say chazaras hasha”tz was not made in a beis medrash, where the attendees generally know how to daven themselves. It was only made for shuls, where it is common to have people who need to be yotzei with the sha”tz.
Shacharis is different because of s’michas geulah lit’filah (at least according to the common minhag of starting t’filas lachash after kedusha).
You also don’t lose Birchas Kohanim at Mincha (I’m not sure if R’ Yaakov said this point).
I don’t think anyone has a problem with that. The problem arises when people perceive that they are being missionized. Because, another shocker, I know, Litvish, Satmer, Sefardim, etc. also believe that their own derachim are more true than the other ones. And yet, you’ll argue with them over it as you noted above. Don’t get all offended when they argue back.
I’m not offended when people argue back. If the discussion would be along the lines of “we’re better because we daven on time, and we don’t agree that what you’re doing is right. I don’t know where you got this idea that you can daven late because you want a bit more Kavanah, if you even have more kavanah, but whatever.” it would be one story.
Saying that we’re Kofrim over this is another. And getting insulted when we argue back is surprising.
R’ Yaakov Kamenetzky is quoted as saying that the original takana to say chazaras hasha”tz was not made in a beis medrash, where the attendees generally know how to daven themselves. It was only made for shuls, where it is common to have people who need to be yotzei with the sha”tz.
Doesn’t this remind you of the whole Sukkah debate? Something done one way for thousands of years, and is brought down in all Halachic works to be done that way. Shas, Rishonim, Achronim, until a Rov about a hundred years ago says to do things otherwise, and then another Rov about 50 years ago tries to find a Sevara, however Dachuk[1] it may be, to justify it.
[1]. Was this Minhag HaYeshivos MeAz UmiKedem? Was this Minhag Volozhin? Minhag HaGra? I don’t remember seeing such a thing Maaseh Rav. I just looked up the Aruch HaShulchan (Siman 232:6, the Mishna Brura didn’t seem to say anything interesting) where he says that the only hetter to daven a Heicha Kedusha is:
1. You’re running late. But he said that the Minhag is like the Arizal to daven a proper Chazaras HaShatz even if you’re going to end up saying the Chazaras HaShatz after Shkiya.
2. If the shul (or, by the way, Beis Medrash) doesn’t have more than a “bit more than a minyan” of people, you should do a Heicha Kedusha because we’re concerned that they won’t answer Amen. I don’t think that this was really a concern in Slabodka, one of the top Yeshivas back in Europe, which also had plenty of students, way more than 10. And in many of the modern Yeshivas, there are often way more than 10 people davening.But note, he didn’t say the Sevarah of Reb Yaakov, or that “in Yeshivas they also don’t do Chazaras HaShatz”, and he was the Rov of Novardok, which had its own Yeshiva.
So through who is this Mesorah that the takana to say chazaras hasha”tz was not made in a beis medrash?
And a side question, if there was no such Takanah, why do a Heicha Kedusha? A Heicha Kedusha’s a replacement for a Chazaras Hashatz. If there’s no Chazaras Hashatz, there should be no Heicha Kedusha?
Wow it’s amazing to see that people have so much time on there hands…
I will try to get back to you guys.
Just busy on Friday mivtzoim with no breaks out opposed to other days I have a break bien hasdorim.
Got shabbos. Shabbos mivorchim
Chevreah another 5 neshomois but on tefflinusername: “WHERE IS THE SOURCE FOR THAT? DID THE BHT WRITE IT HIMSELF – IN WHICH CASE PLEASE FIND ME A LINK – OR DOES IT COME FROM THE FICTIONALIZED ACCOUNT OF THE RAYATZ?
See Beis Rebbi (footnote Beis).”
Interesting. Did you realize that it also answers my second problem which was that how could there have been a decree in Shomayim that the BHT was wrong in spreading chassidus. The story there does not say “decree”, it says “kitrug” which can also mean something like a Heavenly ein horo from “the other side”. That resolves that issue.
Btw despite all that, I still don’t necessarily believe that it is true. The BHT was kodesh kodoshim, but not everything said about him was true. Even the footnote itself implies that it may not be true.
username: “But 95% of the people complaining about us aren’t Chassidishers”
I don’t think that’s true at all. I am a “chassidisher” and the topic of lubavich and their faults comes up between my friends and i as often as some lubavicher nitwit tries to missionize us in our shul.
username: “The thing is, we don’t look down at others. We’ll drink your wine, trust your Kashrus, learn your Seforim, and daven in your shuls. We don’t trash talk the Gedolim.”
Kashrus?! Lubavicher shechitah even where there is another perfectly mehudar chareidishe/chassidishe shechitah because only people who learn chabad chassidus can be yirei Shamayim.
And I have heard many lubavichers of all levels of frumkeit and chassisim trash talk other gedolei Yisrael, especially the Litvishe gedolim.
username: “THE HEICHA KEDUSHA BY MINCHA.”
He’s right. It used to be the minhag in Litvishe yeshivos but I think it was stopped some time ago.
@username- Your taynos are not relevant at all to this conversation. (Besides the fact that the answers are simple) My questions about lubavitch are on ikrei emunah, not laxities in practice. Shaving and proclaiming a mortal man to be running the world aren’t exactly questions on the same footing. At best, you honestly have questions, as irrelevant as they may be, posed to discredit the other side of the argument, and attempting to win a debate with character assassination, which doesn’t work anyway. At worst, you’re purposely diverting or attempting to hijack the conversation, because you don’t have answers, but if you can make us look bad, you don’t have to answer either way.
As an answer to this:
“IS A SIGN OF WHAT THE MOVEMENT BELIEVES IN.
My point is that there’s no real “movement”. I’ll give you a Mashal. Take Breslov. There are Na Nachs and there are Yerushalmim. Is it a Yerushalmi Breslover’s fault that Na Nachs exist?
(WE ALREADY SAID THAT WERE LEAVING LITVAKS OUT OF THIS)
You see, I’ll understand if a guy from Meah Shearim, who is in Kollel learning all day and keeping all the Chumros feels that by becoming Lubavitch he’ll go down in Ruchniyus. I’ll argue with him over it, but I’ll understand.
What I don’t understand is when people who keep less than we do complain how “Lubavitch isn’t frum!!!!” Yes, we may not be as sheltered, and Tznius happens to be an issue. But 95% of the people complaining about us aren’t Chassidishers. There are tons of people, who are more Maikil than Lubavitch in pretty much everything except for Zman Tefilla and possible Tznius (it depends against which Lubavitchers your comparing to).”
It’s important for you to understand for full disclosure, that the world at large (certainly the litvishe posters here) do/does not regard you as another chassidus, one that happens to have drastically different hanhagos than other chassidusin and happens to missionize other jews to join their sect. Would that be the case, the whole “anti-lubavitch” movement would never have started. That’s why your argument above will never be taken seriously. It’s not like another chassidus that may be meikil in some areas and more machmir in others, (or have wacky nanachs that we think are out of their minds) prompting a discussion as to whether we’d be frummer if we were like you or not. Frumkeit is not the nature of this discussion.
We have serious questions, and more accurately, very valid suspicions, about some practices/shittos your chassidus holds, that no other chassidusin subscribe to. These concerns include basics in emunah and hashkafa. There is some sort of sinister agenda, chassidus-wide, to try and “educate” frum, often frummer, yidden about alternate systems of belief. Our gedolim have come out in great force against lubavitch, and honestly, other lubavitch posters throughout the course of this thread have only served to shore up and strengthen those suspicions. They have proved proficient at either outright lying to avoid a question, or doublethinking/doublespeaking, and misleading posters as to the true nature of their shittos to make their view more appealing to the uneducated. So please, answer the very serious questions, without obscuring the conversation with stupid taynos on litvaks, or step aside and let someone else (profess to) do so.
BUT, AS QUOTED EARLIER BY SOMEONE ELSE, THE LUBAVICH REBBE WROTE THAT A REBBE (ONLY OF HIS CALIBER, OF COURSE) CAN BE DAVENED TO R”L. Lo Haya VeLo Nivra.
definitely haya venivra. The Rebbe said it and it was printed in a sefer of Basi Legani but later edited out. Somwhere or other I have a copy of both editions.Doesn’t this remind you of the whole Sukkah debate?
That’s obviously why you brought it up, but no.
@ username 12321
“Doesn’t this remind you of the whole Sukkah debate?
I’m with DY on this one, don’t really see the comparison. I have an itch to specify why they are not comparable, by it is an itch I won’t scratch.
SH what do you think? I noticed you where soliciting NCB into your smicha program. Tell me, is it a svara yeshara to compare the two cases?
Would you be willing to share why when you left Chabbad you didn’t go over to the chevra SH is a part of?
CS: “I would highly recommend it for toi, Rso”
Wow! You really don’t get it, do you? There is no way that I am going to spend even a second listening to someone I consider a looney (you wrote he’s a meshichist) regardless of how much he knows, where he comes from, and what he wears on his head. Maybe not every meshichist is an apikorus, but the belief is very close.
And if you’re going to ask, “What are you scared of?” the answer is in Avodah Zarah 27b “שאני מינות דמשכא”. Listening to this type of stuff is dangerous because it can mess one up.
Non Political, in fact at frist I did sort of gravitate to other less meshichst groups but after the intial shock of Gimmel Tammuz wore off I too slowly realized that it wasn’t the meshichisten who were at fault. It was the Rebbe who had been leading them on andtrying to promote himself as Moshiach.
Once I saw that I couldn’t honestly remain in Lubavitch any longer.CS, Chossid and SH (and maybe TT too), are you going to reply/comment on my claim/proof that the sundial story is fiction, or are you just going to ignore it because when a fact doesn’t fit in with what you want to believe the best thing to do is to ignore the fact?
Lubavicher shechitah even where there is another perfectly mehudar chareidishe/chassidishe shechitah because only people who learn chabad chassidus can be yirei Shamayim.
I’ve looked through the Rebbe and Frierdiker Rebbe’s sichos, and asked around, and couldn’t find a single source where they said to eat only Lubavitch meat. And, by the way, far from everyone keeps Lubavitch Shechita. I know a _lot_ of people who eat Chassidisher Shechita.
They just said that meat has to come from a Yerei Shamaim, and if they come from backgrounds where beards are required, they must grow them (I’ve seen a letter of the Rebbe where he said that if a Shochet comes from a community where people traditionally shaved, shaving isn’t a sign of a lack of Yiras Shamayim). They don’t say anything about what, or where, they should learn, or to which community they should belong.
My suspicion where this custom came from, is:
1. It says that a Shochet has to have a lot of Yiras Shamayim. So since there’s no externally visible objective definition of “Yiras Shamayim”, people used the Shochtim they personally knew and trusted, and since people hung around their own community (Lubavitchers would daven in the Chabad shul and they would hold farbrengens together, while the non-Lubavitchers would obviously daven in their shuls and hang out together), many ended up eating only Lubavitch meat, and that’s how the custom developed. And even nowadays, Lubavitch is small enough that many people know who their Shochtim are personally.
2. Not sure about this one, but in the past (in Lubavitch circles), the Shochet of the town was a highly respected position, where they would frequently double up as the town Mashpia/Mashgiach, and the position would be close to that of the Rov. Was it this way in non-Chabad circles? Because if it wasn’t, then the Lubavitch Shochtim would have been (on average[1]) more Yirei Shamayim since a non-Chassid who was Frum and learned would prefer to work as a Rov, Mashgiach, Rosh Yeshiva, Maggid Shiur, or learn in Kollel. I’m not sure if this is true, but I very rarely hear stories of Litvishe Shochtim, while I do hear stories of Litvishe Rabbonim, Lubavitch Rabbonim, or Lubavitch Shochtim.
But my point stands either way. We consider our derech to be more Emes, but everyone else has a good derech and are fine and good Jews, and are Bichlal Amisecha. And no, we don’t consider your meat not-kosher in any way, and even those who keep Lubavitch Shechita, consider it just a chumra, and will eat Beliyos from other meats.
[1]. What I mean is that if, say, a Reb Chaim Shmulevich would work as a Shochet and the Lubavitch equivalent would work as a Shochet, we’d trust both equally. But since people like Reb Chaim would find jobs in Yeshivas, the Shochtim would come from the more mediocre bochurim. So if there would be a Lubavitch Reb Chaim vs a non-Lubavitch Shmerel, we’d obviously trust the Lubavitch Reb Chaim more.
username, that is a nice defense of lubavich shechitah which would be even nicer if it was true. The fact is that in all the communities that I have visited where lubavich has a significant presence, lubavichers will only eat from lubavicher shechita even though in some cases the lubvicher shochet is clearly less of an obvious yirei Shamayim than the other non-lubavicher shochtim.
Obviously you can’t tell yiras Shamayim just by looking at someone but I’m talking about cities where the lubavicher shochet does things that “in Nevil” he would have lost his job for while the non-lubavicher shochet does not. Let’s leave it at that without going into the nitty-gritty, but I can supply that too if necessary.
To: @Toi
So there are several issues with Lubavitch that people bring up. I’ll try answering them in several posts split up:
1. Your issue with Hashkafa:
We don’t believe that the Rebbe’s a deity. We don’t worship him. We don’t pray to him. We don’t say “Baruch Atah Rebbe”, we don’t say “Bereishis Barrah Rebbe”, Ch”vsh. Not me, and no one I’ve ever seen. I’ve never seen an Elokist in my life, and they were put in Cherem by all Lubavitch Rabbonim, including the Meshichistim anyways.
The phrase “the Rebbe runs the world” is a simple translation of “Tzaddik Gozer VeHakadosh Baruch Hum Mekayem”. No more and no less. At least that’s how we take it to mean.
The Atzmus Umahus sicha[1]? We take it to mean that the Rebbe’s so nullified to Hashem that he does what Hashem wants. That’s it. No, we don’t put Rebbe pictures in Shuls (at least in any I’ve seen), and most Yeshivos don’t have them either. I’ve never ever seen in my life any Shul or Beis Medrash with a Rebbe picture in the front. I’ve heard rumors of a shul of crazies in Tzfas, but again, if I could, I would take it down. And I don’t doubt that the head Shliach of Tzfas would take it down in a moment if he had the legal power. And so would the rest of Lubavitch.
Speaking of Meshichism. A large amount of Lubavitch is anti. In terms of “official Chabad,” it’s probably around 99% of Shulchim are anti. And they’re not “hidden meshichist”. If you don’t believe me, dress up as a Lubavitcher and go to the following institutions:
1. Morristown
2. Detroit
3. (The official Chabad community of) Chicago. The head shliach, the Rov, etc.
4. Any Shemtov
5. Tomchei Tmimim Kiryat Gat
6. Tomchei Tmimim Kfar Chabad.
7. The Ohel
8. The Rosh Yeshiva of LA.
9. Rabbi Heller (the Rosh Kollel of Crown Heights).And tell them Yechi (in secret, even without cameras). I’m not responsible for your hospital bills after this.
These people don’t say Yechi secretly. They hate Meshichstim. If they had the legal power, they would shut down the Meshichist institutions overnight. And Agu”ch (the official overarching group of older Chassidim, who, if anyone is, the governing group of Chabad) is officially anti, and so is Merkos (the official organization that sends on Shlichus). They’re involved in lawsuit after lawsuit trying to shut down Meshichistim. Just try going to Krinsky and Kotlarsky and try saying Yechi. And the younger generation is getting more and more anti over time.
Oh, and PS. Rabbi Wolf is not an official Shliach.
And as far as Meshichistim are concerned, I talked to a few of them. Pretty much 100% of them believe that the Rebbe’s literally alive beguf Gashmi, in a physical body. They don’t do anything special on Gimmel Tammuz. No Neshama candle, no Mishnayos. So yes, they’re absolutely nuts and retarded.
[1]. I want to point out, that the Rebbe said this Sicha even before he became Rebbe, and it was edited and published right away. It was never kept hidden. I have no doubt that the sicha made the rounds within a few weeks after it was said. And yet, the Rebbe was still on decent relations with the Satmar Rov and Reb Yitzchak Hutner for a while after [2], and with Reb Moshe until Reb Moshe’s passing, and I’m almost positive I’ve seen Likkutei Sichos quoted in the Rivevos Ephrayim (he had a phenomenal bekiyus and library, quoting random and rare Seforim all the time).
This is, in addition to a few Chossidisher Poskim (the Mishneh Halachos was famous for being on close terms with the Rebbe, and even in his last Teshuva where he said that Meshichistim were Kofrim and called on Lubavitchers to appoint a new Rebbe, he still called the Rebbe with all the proper titles. How did he explain the sicha? And of course Rabbi Pinchas Hirshprung, who was on good terms with the Rebbe despite not being an official Lubavitcher. How did he explain the sicha? So sure, other Poskim are Barei Plugta. But here there’s a Machlokes BeMitzzyus (what did the Rebbe mean), and after 60 years, the amount of Elokistim in Lubavitch can probably be counted on one hand. So what do you think is more likely: Lubavitch has no idea what the Rebbe meant (If they felt that the Rebbe was proclaiming himself G-d (Ch v”sh) they should either follow him there or leave Lubavitch) or that we do understand what the Rebbe meant, and that he meant simply meant that the Rebbe’s nullified to Hashem. Oh, and this Sicha was officially said about the Previous Rebbe. And yet, for the next 42 years after the Sicha, the Rebbe didn’t do any actions which would show that he should be deified or that he deified someone else. When people started looking at him during davening (not Ch V”sh to deify him, but to watch him Daven), he threatened to stop davening in public.) But after all is said and done, we definitely and unconditionally don’t believe that he’s a G-d.
[2]. The Rebbe was Menachem Ovel the Satmar Rov in Yud Daled after the passing of his daughter (after that Sicha was said, and likely after it was edited) and they had a conversed, and I’ve heard that the Satmar Rov was Menachem Avel the Rebbe after the Rebbe’s mother passed away in Chof Vov. Do you know if the Satmar Rov was ever Menachem Ovel the head of the Reform movement, and if the head of the reform movement would come to the Satmar Rov, would they have a congenial chat? I was under the impression that they broke up over Tzionus (Shleimus HaAretz specifically) and Shlichus, not this Sicha.
The Rebbe still was on decent terms with Reb Yitzchok Hutner for a while. To the best of my knowledge, the relationship ended when the Moshiach campaign started, decades after the Atzmus Umahus sicha came out. If the Rebbe meant it literally, why did it take so long for Reb Yitzchok Hutner so long to break up?
@toi and @DaasYochid
The other thing I wanted to mention is that there are really a few Taanos against us, said by different people, so a response against one isn’t a response to another. If I remember correctly, DaasYochid was fine with all the Lubavitch Rabbeim until the Frierdiker Rebbe. And the Taanah was on innovations over the past 70 years.
And that’s why I brought up the whole Heicha Kedusha business. Because the thing is, I don’t believe that the Rebbe canceled Mitzvos, and I don’t believe that Reb Yaakov cancelled Chazaras HaShatz. “Cancelling a Mitzvah” means that someone says “This Mitzvah (or this part of the Mitzvah) was applicable from 2448 – 5779. From today, it’s over.” And neither of them said that.
So if you’ll look at the Taanos most often leveled against us (Zman, Sukkah and Shalosh Seudos), all of those were innovated before the Rebbe.
The issue with Zman Tefilla goes way back, that even the Zamir Aritzim (the anti-chossidic polemic issued during the Charomim) mentions that problem among Chassidim (not just Lubavitchers), along with being too happy and focusing too much on Kabbalah at the expense of Gemara. So that’s definitely not a modern problem, and going back to the Rebbe Rashab’s style Lubavitch wouldn’t solve the problem.
The other two were also mentioned in Sichos of the Frierdiker Rebbe. So while NCB and rso will say “it’s a fairy tale”[1], that doesn’t change the situation. The thing is, that Lubavitchers don’t believe that when the Frierdiker Rebbe said something like “My father did X”, or “The Mitteler Rebbe said Y”, he was lying. So by the time the Rebbe became Rebbe, the whole Davening late, eating before davening, not sleeping in a Sukkah, not eating Shalosh Seudos was not a crazy “who invented that?!”. It was fairly accepted within Lubavitch.
And if you’ll look at those Sichos, the Rebbe’s not saying “Ok guys, the Mitzvah of Sukkah is hereby cancelled!! Woo Hoo.” He’s saying “The Minhag is X, how can we explain it so it’s not explicitly violating Halacha.” It’s a sort of Moreh Hetter for a Minhag. And, for example, when it came to Shalosh Seudos, the Rebbe toned down the existing minhag[2], for example, by requiring that we eat something, so we at least fulfill the Mitzvah in a Bedievediker manner.
And, (for NCB and Toi), that’s why I mention all the Chumros we keep. It’s not like the Conservative movement, say, which goes out of its way to find every single Kulah they can find. It’s not like the Rebbe was looking for every annoying Mitzvah to cancel it. It was those specific Mitzvas which were previously mentioned by the Frierdiker Rebbe where we were already lenient.
[1]. I saw Reb Moshe Shternbuch quote the Frierdiker Rebbe’s quote of the Alter Rebbe (“Chalav Akum causes Sefeikos in Emunah”) besheim omro. So it looks like he doesn’t believe that it’s all a fraud.
[2]. That’s another interesting thing. The Rebbe toned down a lot of the extreme Chabad minhagim. Starting from the decree on Mashke, to strengthening the importance of Niglah within Lubavitch, to pushing that Yeshivas set aside a seder to learn Shulchan Aruch every day, to making a Friday morning seder until roughly noon (again, including Niglah seder), to encouraging learning Gemara on Shabbos (rather than Chassidus only, as was done in previous generations), to the push for Chassidisher Levush (the Kapoteh), and of course, the Takanah to learn Rambam daily (you’re going to say “but people will paskin from the Rambam!!” So I’ll say back “But I know of people who learn Mishna and Paskin from there. And I know of people who paskin from an Artscroll Gemara. Does it mean that you shouldn’t learn that? At least you’ll now know that you should be asking a Shaalah).
So CS, to humor you, I did about 7 seconds of research on this guy. I don;t care about anyone’s background, I care about who he is today. If someone was noraml and went kooky, you can usually assume he’s super kooky. And let me tell you, he’s super kooky. He calls the rebbe “king” he proclaims that to mekabel the “king’s” “malchus”, you need to say “yechi hamelech”. You thought I’d take this bozo seriously? If someone told me to be mekable R’ Shach ztzl as the king, and to say yechi hamelech on R shach, I’d write him off as utterly insane in a heartbeat. Crazy people.
Here you go folks, this is who CS would like us to base our understanding of rational chabad on. Mods, this is not a link, I left out .html at the end. Enjoy folks. Like I said, CS just keeps digging herself in deeper and deeper, this is insane. And don’t cry foul that I’m quoting beis moshiach. You supplied the name, I just found his speech.
link sends to main site so removed
beismoshiachmagazine .org rabbi-reuven-wolf-my-fateful decisionAnd to chossid, and the others, if you cannot see why my posts above are accurate, this sure should clear up any doubt.
CS,
You don’t stop amazing me. Why on Earth would you quote a nut job like Mr Wolf? For heaven’s sake, he spoke at the fake Tzfati Kinus!!!Do you really think that his Shtreimel would impress people here? Or his messed up Deos?
Username number – I would eat in your house 100%! it’s nice to have a sane chabadnik actually answer some questions! Ashrecha, V’ashrei harebbe shelcha!
Cs – I checked out that guy. And to you I can only say the reverse.
CS – do you agree with this? From his speech
“This means that the proclamation of “Yechi HaMelech” is the essence of all of Judaism and all of Torah and mitzvos! ”
And from there it’s a small jump to “If you say Yechi, you don’t have to keep the mitzvois” “Just believe in the rebbe, that’s all of yiddishkeit”
… And a new religion is on its way!As far as Username’s statement of “mevatel Mizvos”, what do you call those 2 separate tapes from the Rebbe stating that; WE DON’T HAVE TO OBSERVE (say Selichos etc) ON BEHA”B, BECAUSE MEN HOT SHOIN AUSGEPUTZT DIE KNEPLACH.” We are in a Galus chosech, where there are unprovoked attacks on Yidden all over – Crown Heights, Williamsburg, Boro Park,… and where not? Is this what we get for being a “Dor shekulo zakkai, “men hot oisgeputzt die kneplach”? Take off your sunglasses and look around you! You will not see the sun, you will see a golus chosech that get worse from day-to-day.
username, for all your efforts and honest and mentchliche attempts at explaining lubavich, you haven’t scratched the surface.
Yes, it’s possible the Elokistim were put in cherem (I haven’t heard that until now but it may be true) but what about all those you denigrate who claim that your rebbe is still alive? Why is it not akin to apikorsus to claim something that is against FACT and then to base a belief system upon it? Where are all the charomim against them?
As to Merkoz being anti-meshichist, that is the offical policy in order not to turn potential mekuravim off. But don’t try to tell me that most of the shlichim are not meshichisten. I have heard less than a handful of shlichim – as I’ve written in the past, I’ve been in chabad houses on five continents and had these discussions in most of them – deny that the rebbe is mashiach when pressed. The others are scared of saying what they believe and try to avoid the topic… until they get drunk and then nichnas yayin yatza sod.
OK, I gave in. I didn’t watch the video but i read most of the article about Reuven Wolf in Beis Moshiach.
What I really can’t believe is that CS, who puts on an almost normal front, tells us we should get inspired by this madman. If he isn’t an apikores it’s only because none of the Rishonim or Achronim every thought that apikorsus would get down to this low state.
And what does that make CS (who still hasn’t commented on my proof from the sundial story that the Rayatz wrote fiction)?
WE DON’T HAVE TO OBSERVE (say Selichos etc) ON BEHA”B
Regarding fasting: the Aruch HaShulchan already said that few fast Behab, and Chassidim in general weren’t into fasting (outside the fasts which are Mechuyav Al Pi Din, see Kesser Shem Tov, where he writes that it’s much better to invest your energy into Torah and Davening over fasting Chassidim were also into serving Hashem with joy), and it seems that nowadays non Chassidim also advocate that Teshiva through Torah study and Chessed is better than fasting (I’ve seen it referenced to קריינא דאגרתא ח”א עמוד קפב אות קסז, but I don’t own a copy to look it up inside).
I am not talking about fasting. But don’t say that “Oisgeputzt the kneplach”, and according to CS ” The World is in a State of Geulah”. What fantasy are you living? There isn’t a day that is not worse than the previous one, and we are in a state of geulah!? PHEW! Go bury yourself 6-feet under and scream that you are alive. Who will listen to you?
WAKE UP AND FACE REALITY!@Username:
I have been reading this thread with great interest-first time posting on it.“The phrase “the Rebbe runs the world” is a simple translation of “Tzaddik Gozer VeHakadosh Baruch Hu Mekayem”. No more and no less. At least that’s how we take it to mean.”
Would you say that other gedolim have the power of “Tzaddik Gozer…?” if yes, then how can it simply be that ” the REBBE runs the world?” What about the other tzaddikim who are gozer? Maybe THEY run the world (Ch”V) And if no, then you have some more explaining to do…
K I finally found some time.
There is a lot to respond to.
First it appears to me (though I might be wrong), I really think that there is something behind all these comments and complaints that you guys say against chabad, which might be something you’re upset about, or you don’t want it change your mindset, or you’re scared someone might mock you if you hold like this, which all this is bringing you to say all this loshen horoah and moitzi Shem rah, (besides a few things like tznius, and zman tefilah), and any story a chabad person says you say it’s fiction, no matter how many ‘rayas’ he has. (Sundial we still have to figure out and discuss).
btw it only makes sense that a story about chabad is brought in chabad mekoros, and same goes with ponevitch, brisk, and satmer. So because all of this you’re not interested before you’re miotzoi sham rah to check up the mekoirs, if you’re really sincere person you would open some seforim, chabad seforim too, do some research, you should listen to Rabbi YY Jacobson he gives really good shiurim on a lot of topics for example basics of Emuna (he is speaking to a non Lubavitche crowd. Check him up at theYeshiva.net before you start calling us koifrim.
I personally listen to other shiurim besides chabad, for example harav Aryeili shlita, he gives a very good shiur in Gemorah leyiun. And If you want I should listen to someone giving a shiur that chabad are koifrim I don’t mind listening to it, and see what he has to say.
So i will like to know what’s the core problem that’s bothering you guys. And I don’t mind to discuss it, as long as time allows.
Now I think we have to start with this, the tzidkus of the Rebbe/Rebbeim and then we can discuss everything else.
First how do we know or see if someone is a holy man, a tzadik or a godol?
I’m sure everyone can agree that we can see in the way the person acts, his day to day life. A godol by how much Torah he learned and his dedication to Torah etc etc. And by a tzadik also the way he is devoted to Torah.. and also the the miracles he does, and ruach hakodesh he has. (There is a a lot more to elaborate on both but it’s enough for now).
So now I will say again and try to be more clear.
When someone does moifsim and has roach hakodesh, not that one person says he has regarding a personal story he had with the Rebbe and not only chabad. But thousands upon thousands of the Lubavitchers, and amongst them litvaks and chassidisher, say their personal stories they had with the Rebbe that he had Ruach hakodesh and the miracles he has done for them, through davaning to the aibershter for them spiritually and physically. All these people are עדים that say it regarding them, ע”פ שני עדים יקום דבר but here there are tens of thousands.
After all that it’s not so easy to say that he is not a tzadik and the storys (you don’t like hearing) are fiction.
Just like regarding the Holocaust if someone says that it didn’t happen or it doesn’t make sense for someone reason or another, you would shut him up because we have Holocaust survivors that say eidus that it happened to them personally.
If you’re going to want to just disregard and say “heh most gedoilim don’t agree”, then tell me which one, and what did he say about Rebbe and his tzidkus, and we can have a conversation about that.
Now regarding people calling me “brainwashed”. (Which is a matter of opinion and I can say the same thing about you). All I could say is a story about Rav shtieman zatzal (who’s Yortziet was today) that he was asked from the kehilah in Switzerland, that chabad has a School or preschool there, and they are wondering if they should make a separate one and not send their kids to the chabad one. Rav Shtieman told them they shouldn’t open a separate one, rather they should send their kids to the chabad School. (I heard this from the shliachs son in law).
Now if you say chabad is brainwashed than why would Rav Shtieman tell them to send their kids there?? Are you going say chas vesholom that he is brain….. (I won’t even say it). That’s one story.
Also if anybody knows Rabbi Wolfson shlita in boro park he was originally a litvak, he is a well respected rabbi in boro Park and what he says in support about lubavitch and the Rebbe is ein leshayer. He brings people to the Rebbe ohel etc. etc.
Rabbi YY Jacobson has hundreds of people listening to his shiur, same with Rabbi Shais Taub in the Ami Magazine, your going to say they are all getting Brienwashed? Including Litvaks?
I could bring so many more stories and people, but my point is that not only does chabad support their shita and Rebbe but so do many others, Yes, including litvaks.
I am therefore dumbfounded how you, claiming that you are a shomer torah umitzvos, would call another yid, a group of yidden, thousands of yidden, an eidah k’deisha, “brainwashed”, for your own convenience. May hashem have rachmonus on you. (Perhaps if you learned some chassidus, you would have a better understanding an ability how to fulfill the mitzvas ese d’ureisa, AHAVAS YISROEL).
Now regarding the claims that the friediker Rebbe wrote negative about misnagdim.
To my knowledge he only went against the haskalah movement (those were the misnagdim), in fact when he was in Russia in the Soviet Union in took his responsibility to take care of klal Yisrael he sent his best chassidim on msiras nefesh to make underground chadorim in different little city’s for All yiddin, this all documented, the two well known ones are simcha goridetzky and bentsh Shem tov. Not only that the friediker Rebbe sent mainly bochrim to do the job, in case they are caught so that there won’t be any Agunaos, my great grandfather was amongst them. And when he came to America he gave money to a lot of non Lubavitcher yeshivois because there were closing down for example yeshivas Torah Vedas (well known story which was a s told over by a witness).
So from the above it doesn’t seem he hated them.
Regarding shchita, first of all, many Lubavitchers do eat non-Lubavitcher shchita. Personally, I am makpid to eat only Lubavitcher shchita, simply because I know Rav Hamachshir personally and therefore know him to be a big yiras shomayim and could be trusted. At the same time, when I travel, and i’m in england or eretz yisroel, I eat kedasya or edah hachareidus shchita, knowing that they have very high standards and can be trusted.
By you guys, there is a book that came out from professor Berger, saying our shchita is treif, based on his baseless sources (including baseless hatred, of sinas yisroel…), that we daven to the rebbe. (Hashem yerachem olov v’al nishmoso).
Btw all you guys that get stuck in some island or go on vacation somewhere and rely on the shliach there, do you think they are serving you Lubavitche shchita? You don’t seem to care, or even ask, as long as you have your cholent for shabbos. And then complain that he couldn’t get together a minyan for mincha (if you really cared you go there on vacation there in the first place).
It’s all because you just think about yourself.
Funny story someone comes knocking on my door that he’s daughter needs the bathroom like, how did he find us, he checked up chabad.org. (which I don’t mind people using my bathroom).
Now I happen to come across an advertisement in the Ami magazine this past week, saying that there will be a Atzeres Tefilah by the kever of Horav Shteinman zatzal, and all kvitel can be emailed to ….. (Interestingly, the whole concept of a kvitel come from chassidishe sources…) and for some reason no one says that THEY are kofrim and they are davening to avoda zora (as you said previously regarding those going to the Rebbe’s tzion). Because the truth is, we both do the same thing. We both go to our gedolim to daven on our behalf. But for some reason you call us koifrim.
I hope these points came through.
All those that to listen to a shiur on basics of Emuna you can go to they Shiva.net Rebbi Jacobson gives a good shuir on the topic.
Best wishes for a freilichen chanukah. May the light of chanukah dispel the much darkness, and we should be zoche to bias moshiach tzikeinu. ויקוים הכתוב “ומלאה הארץ דיעה את ה’’ כמים לים מכסים”.
Any further questions or comments, feel free to ask.
If you want to learn chassidus, i will be happy to help you.
You can reach me at
email address removed
Would you say that other gedolim have the power of “Tzaddik Gozer…?”
Yes
If yes, then how can it simply be that ” the REBBE runs the world?” What about the other tzaddikim who are gozer?
No idea, that’s a bit above my pay grade :). Everything is in Hashem’s hands and He makes the call.
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