The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

“but because they have been taught (and I was too – Boruch Hashem I managed to rid myself of it) the weird skill of believing what they want to believe.”

This is what I’ve been saying the whole time- Cs and others have this unbelievable ability and proclivity to orwellian doublespeak, and it’s terrifying.

@Chossid- I’m glad then, that I got you to come out of the woodwork. Maybe you’ll supply some honest, direct answers to the questions that other lubavitchers on here seem to avoid. I’m honestly interested to see if there are coherent explanations; when I continually backed CS into a corner, she decided that my posts were too full of hate, as opposed to too difficult to answer, and stopped answering me.

“We are not davaning to them cas vesholom, we are asking them that they should ask Hashem to give us brochos.”

First off, I’ve never heard of anyone, ever, writing letters to tzaddikim who have passed on, besides chabad, so no to that one. In terms of davening, we’re not discussing davening that someone should be a meilitz yosher, which is still a hot topic of debate among the poskim, but certainly has a lot of heavyweights behind it. We’re talking about davening/communicating with the rebbe, and asking for an answer AND THAT HE SHOULD DELIVER THE YESHUA (I’ll bring raayos for this, soon), not that he should intercede by Hashem for brachos/siyata dishmaya, so your tzu shtell has zero shaychus. Did you miss the previous posts where CS has stated she got answers from the rebbe? We’re talking two way dialogue- not a concept that any posek will back up, and not one sanctioned in yiddishkeit, no matter how holy you think the person you’re davening to is. Can I daven to Moshe Rabbeinu and ask him things, and for answers? Heck no.

Regarding my choice of diction, you’ll have to excuse me, besides the logical and hashkafic inconsistencies and fallacies I’ll soon point out, I for one do not believe in the great tzidkus of your rebbe, which I’m sure you’ll take issue with, and that’s okay, but you will not change my mind against my personal research.

Many, most ( ?) Of these posts criticizing Lubavitcher don’t show the Jew’s real name.
So this is ambush by a bunch of scared or arrogant Jews.
Neither of these ‘midot’ are something to be proud of.
An honest, G- d Fearing Jew should be disgusted by this display of ‘Sinus Chinom.’
‘Sinus Chinum’ destroyed one of the Beis HaMikdashes.
So, ‘misnagdisher Jews’ enjoy trying to stamp out light.
Remember your ‘Krias She’s Am Ha Mira should be sincere.
Boruch Ben Tzvi HaKohaine Hoffinger, Jerusalem

What will happen if your questions get answered? Are you going to change your mind or just going to say it’s not a good answer?
I would like to first be makdim:
I don’t hate you, and I’m not saying CV”s that another ways in anodah are wrong, rather that I personally think that chabad chassidus has a lot to enhance in klal Yisraels avodah, and that’s what chabad is here for, from the Bal Shem tov, Bal hatanya and onwards. All the rabbeim wore here to help klal Yisrael with whatever they need in there avodah.
And just because I’m chabad it doesn’t mean I’m more special then you, I just personally feel lucky that I was born into a chabad family, and had the privilege to learn for many years chassidus. Not because I’m more talented in anyway. And I’m here just to share what chabad has to offer, cuz I feel it could help and has helped a lot of people.
Just trying to get some stuff straight before we continue having a conversation

Great Chossid, it sounds like you’re open to conversation. I have a longer post that looks like it’s still being modded, so I’ll wait for that to go through with my questions before I address your points, explaining where I disagree with what you said in the above post. I hope it goes through soon.

“Just to note chossid and username, toi already brought up those topics on a different Chabad thread. There was a lively discussing with many many sources brought (from the Chabad side mainly to be honest).”

Just to note the sources were usually Chabad sources which doesn’t work if your point is to validate chabad’s legitimacy.

@CS- Please cite where belzers write to their interred Rebbe to answer their prayers. Notice how your post trying to discredit my arguments didn’t say “No you moron, we’re not asking the rebbe to answer our tefillos, Hashem answers tefillos, Rebbes are, at most, a meilitz yosher”. Because you wouldn’t say that, would you, because that’s exactly what you are doing, and you know it. If you can show me any belzer that davens to his Rebbe for the yeshua, waits for an answer/yeshua from his not living Rebbe, I’ll be maskim. Disclaimer: Not gonna happen, cuz they don’t daven to dead people, except to be a meilitz yosher, which you already admitted, by omission, that you do. Which is A”Z. The only answer you might try to give is betten/mimutza michaber, which we already discussed is predicated on the rebbe’s sicha of atzmuso areingishtelt in a guf, which we’ve already concluded is kefira (as in goes against the Rambam’s ikrim), so that’s a bad road to go down again.

@Chossid- Please answer, why Chabad desired to open a chabad house in kiryat sefer, the frummest chareidist community in the world, where there is no kirv to be done and no one to be mekarev, leading me to logically conclude that chabad’s desire was to spread chabad’s belief system within that community, and that’s scary and weird, because what exactly are they trying to do to those people? Also, please explain the video where Cunin (again, one of, if not THE most influential chabadsker on the west coast) proclaims unambiguously that the rebbe runs the world. A)What’s that supposed to mean? B) Why would no one in Chabad be mocheh or seek to explain what he possibly could’ve meant? Also, please explain what Moshe Kotlarsky, one of the bigwigs of the shluchim kinnos meant when he said “may the Rebbe look upon our gathering favorably, his presence is here with us now and may he grant our requests” at the annual kinus (quote from chabadtalk.com, seems the quote was edited out of the kinus CD, wonder why)?

Put these concerns to bed, and I’ll chill out. Real answers. No doublespeak. No evasion. And honestly, I won’t even bother with the rebbe being moshiach now (CS tried skirting that until it became obvious by omission as well, not surprised), let’s just straighten out the basics.

username- the minchas yitzchak isn;t a source for what chabad does. He’s not condoning davenin to a rebbe and having the rebbe answer you/provide the yeshua. He’s “handling” the rebbe acting as a meilitz yosher- I already pointed out that CS admitted by omission this distinction is true.

I do laud Chabad’s strictness with regards to eruvim. And, you are right that–on average–Lubavitchers are more likely to be machmir here than American Litvaks. Just one fact check: you said it’s more normal in the Chassidish world to be machmir on eruvin. This is not true. Most Chassidim have a mesora to be meikel in this halachah. Even to the degree that many hold by the Brooklyn eruvin.

Yeah. I meant the other things. Eiruvin happen to be one of the things that the Chassidisher happened to be mote lenient about. Although I’ve seen plenty Litvish people rely on Eiruvin.

Also, speaking of Doresh El HaMeisim, see the beginning of the third Perek of Brachos where several Tanayim and Amoraim talking to Neshamos and receiving answers from them. Oh, and also see the Shivchei HaAri.

Whatever it is that Chabad does, however they daven, you should know that the place Rav Schneerson ZT”L has amongst them is unprecedented in all of Yiddish history. No one has ever proclaimed that a dead leader is an exclusive emissary from H”KBH, nor has anyone ever made it a minhag to insert said leaders name into teffilos. I don’t care how many Chassidishe seforim talk about “Nasi HaDor” or how many mekoros there are for a meilitz yosher, it’s a new, mudnehdikeh, thing that was invented by Chabad in 1996.

Is it avodah zora? Not for me to decide, others have already weighed in. Is it a new and strange custom with no basis in halacha or minhag that very strongly resembles certain issurim d’orayso? Absolutely.

@username123321

צדיק גוזר והקב”ה מקיים

That’s a cop out and leads to a whole lot of other issues if taken literally. You’re essentially saying that anything a tzaddik says or does is automatically accepted in Shomayim and becomes reality. It’s very similar to what I’ve seen Chabadskers say in regards to Rav Schneerson ZT”L’s writings and speeches that they hold it’s impossible for him to have made a mistake on even a letter and therefore one can learn up his words as if they were, le’havdil, Torahs Moshe. Even a Gemara isn’t given to the same interpretation that Chabad lends to לקוטי אגרות. We understand that people are human, and errors arise, especially in the long process of recording, transcribing, editing, and publishing that takes place before a sefer is read.

Even a Gemara isn’t given to the same interpretation that Chabad lends to לקוטי אגרות.

Never learned Rambam? Never seen the Nosei Keilim give Dachuk answers just to avoid saying “The Rambam erred”

@ Chossid

“We are just coming from the day where we celebrate the amazing gift of chassidus. This is not a yom tov just for chabad it’s a yom tov for all yidden.”

No, because not all Yidden learn chassidus, nor do they need to.

“The Bal hatanya didn’t go to prison for learning chassidus with his chassidim, rather for spreading chassidus to the masses..

Ok. And as you well know other talmidai HaBesht and more recently the Satmar Rov Zt”l disagreed that one ought to do that. That the non-chassidic Rebonim disagreed goes without saying.

“The point why I’m saying all this is because, if you think chassidus is for chabad your mistaken it’s for klal Yisrael.”

So says Chabbad

“Chabad is not spreading chassidus to brianwash everyone that everyone should think how they are, rather to share this amazing hielikeh gift ( satmer Rebbe called the Tanya a heilikeh sefer…)”

Amazing. You shlepped the Satmar Rov into this as a support for your position. What does the fact that he held the Tanya to be a helig sefer have to do with anything??

“That’s why we hold Farbrengens for everyone to come to beachdus, and why we go on tahaluch – walk hours every sholoish regolim to different shuls to share chassidus with everyone”

Right. You do the above in complete disregard to the opinions of the Gedolai Yisroel and Rebbonim who object to it. But that’s ok because since they disagree with you they are obviously just trying “to stomp out the light of chassidus”. Since the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Moshe Rebbeinu of his (and subsequent) generations those who disagree are erev rav, meraglim, adas Korach. Snags, the whole bunch of ’em.

“So why not just try it out instead of being so against it, it won’t hurt, and btw anyone that really tried it never really regrets it.”

I won’t even say what that sounds like

“Regarding if I’ll change my mind, I would just like assurance that everything being observed by Chabad is halachically sound. I used to believe it was but CS has convinced me otherwise.”

I have to disagree with you a little bit here for once, Syag. I think you’re asking for assurance of something that you will never consider to be true, which will make this thread go on forever. You know the things Chabad does/believes and you know how our poskim hold in regards to them. They believe what they’re doing is halachically sound, we don’t. It seems that simple to me. Nobody is going to change their minds.

As for your claim that you previously believed there were no problems, did you think zman hatefillah, sleeping in the sukkah, and not eating before shachris were just silly Livisher chumras? There have always been problems, the question is just whether we can respectfully disagree or if one side feels the need to enforce their shittas as the only correct path.

Consistently, the Lubavitchers have shown their goal to be to convince us all of their shittos. The question answered with a question as an example: his analogy to the Besht reaching out to disenchanted frum yidden proves that he’s interesting in proselyting non-Lubavitchers.

They seem to have 3 approaches:
1) The overt meshichists like TT who just want to talk trash about gadolim and scream about moshiach
2) The covert meshichists like how CS was (and what I believe the new guys are) who want to sneakily justify their practices without explicitly mentioning moshiach
3) The non-meshichists like Sechel who want us to believe that their fraction of a percent of Chabad is the only REAL Chabad and that we should ignore the other 99.9%.

Toli
I will try to the best of my ability to answer your questions.
Just to note you’re asking me what other people said ( B) and C)), which I will try to explain.
To question
A) chabad is not an organization for the non religious, it’s a shita which stems all the way from the Bal Shem tov to to reveal Hashem and constantly be conscious about it as much as possible, within out self and the entire world, meaning frum people should learn more penimius hatorah (just focus more on Hashem himself, understand what he is, and applying it to our conscious lives, opposed to nigleh hatorah you only see chomoh of Hashem) non frum people to tell them what Hashem want some of them, that Hashem gave us the torah to the Jews, the chosen Nation….. And to the non Jews explain to them the seven noahide laws. It’s all about revealing Hashem in our personal lives and consciously focused on him and doing everything for for his sake…
That should probably explain why they opened a chabad house there.
B) coming soon… I just running out of time.

Neville- my point was that I wasn’t here r to argue nor have my mind changed. Whether my quest is doable is separate from it being what I have been doing here. And I never heard any of those things you mention, which is why I came to be informed. And when I hear something I have always been taught was wrong, how can I not want to know how someone can justify such a thing.

So we now have chossid telling us very politely and straight that Chabad puts a house in a Frum neighborhood because it is their mission to spread chassidus to those who aren’t. Perhaps he doesn’t know that the posters before him insisted they don’t approach the frum (and some just avoided answering). So did they lie? What’s with that?

Chossid, I feel obligated to tell you, because you seem to care, that when you give sincere answers that contain information we know to be against Torah, we will fight you. Not because we hate Chabad, but because we love Hashem. If you will not be able to see the responses in that light, you may want to bow out. Nobody has yet allowed us to defend Torah as we know it without calling us all sorts of things. Just as you may aggressively defend your beliefs, you should expect no less from us as we have been hearing very disturbing practices and attitudes and are following our Gedolim and Torah.

@ chossid

“frum people should learn more penimius hatorah”

Right. That’s what the Ramchal said to. He was before the Besht, No? Surely you know that Rashbi already said so in the Zohar. That isn’t the point.

“(just focus more on Hashem himself”, understand what he is”

Your statement here IS the problem. The tragedy is that you don’t even realize it. The Ramchal says explicitly that nowhere in all of Chachmas HaEmes is that discussed. In fact that subject is completely out of bounds. The whole of Chachmas HaEmes (or “Pnimius HaTorah) speaks ONLY about what Hashem does (which includes His intent). I know you will say that this is a matter of dispute of “Rishonim K’Malachim” (The Baal HaTanya and Nefish HaChaim) Before you do, keep in mind that:

1) the Ramchal preceded them.

and

2) see the hakdama to Adir B’Marom (in the green set) where you can glean an insight into how the Ramchal was regarded by the Magid (Tamid Muvchak of the Besht and the Rebbe of the Baal HaTanya).

Neville why do you always seem to get personally offended?
Yes after some people are being moitzeh sham rah/ loshen horoah……. I do intend to stick up for Lubavitch.
If you want to start nitpicking on different problems Lubavitch has then don’t worry I could do the same thing back, because nobody is perfect, no matter from what kries your from whether chabad, litvish, or chassidish, we all have on what to work on.
But when you come out against chabad that they are koifrim…. And the Rebbe is worng….. and shita of Chabad chassidus is worng, (when you probably never really learned chassidus and you don’t ky what a Rebbe is, you got to have real evidence and rayes. Not just relying on what you hear.
And besides the point who are we to argue, in order for someone to have a shita against chabad you need to somewhat be equivalent to a Rebbe or a godel.
All I see is that most of the world holds that the Rebbe was a tzadik and made miracles for everyone, and had ruach hakidesh. I see this from non Lubavitchers, just you should know that very week for the past 5 years at lt a publication comes out with personal encounters that people had with the Rebbe and half of them are non Lubavitchers. So you need to have big plaitzes to say against his tzidkus.
Hope this didn’t come out harsh.

How about we discuss with mikoirios what each shita of avodah is, Lubavitche litvish and chassidish, and we can agree at times and argue, it’s only normal, instead of all the loshen horoah, that will go on to no end. Believe me we all have a lot to say about each other, just must people rather refrain.

You were literally just talking about how it’s standard Chabad practice to mention the name of Rav Schneerson ZT”L when davening so he can be a meilitz. That’s what I mean by “insert said leaders name into tefilos”.

Huh?! You go to a Rov and say “please daven for me”. That’s all we’re doing. Like the Minchas Yitzchak above. We don’t Ch V”Sh pray to him.

And when I compared Chabad learning R’ Schneerson’s writings more in depth than Gemara I meant it too. Don’t try to compare him and his publishers to the Rambam and Ibn Tibn who had rishonim vet the publication and writings. R’ Scheerson, for all his gadlus, was no Rambam. And the Chabad rabbonim are no Rishonim.

Ok. Not like the Rambam. Like a major Acharon who was Medayek. If you found a Shver Gra”ch, would you farenter with Lomdus or would you just say “typo”. Especially if you have the Ksav Yad.

There have always been problems, the question is just whether we can respectfully disagree or if one side feels the need to enforce their shittas as the only correct path.

Tell me, how are we not respectfully disagreeing? The most disrespectful thing we said is that we think everyone should learn Chassidus (not necessarily Chabad)? How much more disrespectful is this compared to Reb Yisroel Salanter’s campaing to bring Mussar to the Yeshiva world (which was controversial in its day (“Mussar is a medicine” vd”l)).

Can this be compared to the literal nonsense that people made up about Chabad? You know, like Tomchei Tmimim learns Tanya or Likkutei Sichos all day (Jokes on them. There is no Seder to learn either. Both are learned outside Seder. We literally don’t learn the Rebbe’s works during Seder. Even the Chassidus that we learn, is 90% of the time the 5th Lubavitcher Rebbe’s Maamorim. And that’s 3 hours a day. The rest of the time – the same Gemara/Rishonim and Shulchan Aruch you do. OK. We learn Shulchan Aruch HaRav since we do Paskin like him, but on Simanim where we don’t have Shulchan Aruch HaRav, like Hilchos Chanuka, we do learn Mishna Brura.) or how Lubavitch is all Frei (answered a few posts before), or how Lubavitch does Mivtzoyim all day (again, we only do Mivtzoim Friday afternoon when all Yeshivas don’t have Seder anyways). Forget about all the claims that every story said by Lubavitchers was maliciously invented to put down the Yeshivish velt (also Lo Haya VeLo Nivra, and also answered above). Is this called “respectfully disagreeing”?

Listen, Reb Moshe respectfully disagreed with the Rebbe. Many times. And publicly, it’s all printed in Igros Moshe. But if you’ll notice, we have no Taynas on him. Lubavitchers sent him Shaalos. Because he was actually respectful about the disagreement. Kach Darkah Shel Torah.

Non Political
Have you ever learned chassidus? It sure doesn’t seem like it especially chabad chassidus (I could be wrong). I have been learning chassidus for many years and I can say that it’s speaks about Hashem different levels, the gadlus of the oibershther and the power of him, the meaning of Torah and mitzvos, the tachlis why the world was created and what to we accomplice how many do Torah and mitzvos. All I. A way that you can understand and live your conscious life based upon it.
I could go on and on
There is hundreds and hundredths sefrei chabad that helps your avodas Hashem, just from the Rebbe himself there is about 250 seforim chassidus nigleh vechulu.
And the way the remchal was holy person, but could be he was taking about beftthe the Bal hatanyas times, Don’t know, we should check it up.
And do you learn the remchals chassidus at all? Or you just bringing him for political purposes?.

username123321 it’s nice to see someone finally admit that Lubavitch has a problem with drinking. All the others so far have denied it vehemently just sa they deny every other fault.
But your answer about tznius is not valid. Crown Heights is the center of your (I nearly wrote “our”. Old habits die hard!) chassidus and what happens in “the Rebbe’s Shchunah” is a sign of what the movement believes in. The tznius there is geferlech. I know because I lived there and I still often visit family there.
You can’t blame BTs and people who don’t know what they are doing and just call themselves Lubavitch because the mixing of genders in the street and in stores is terrible and that includes mashpiim and their wives.
In any other chassidshe kreiz (we already said that were leaving Litvaks out of this) would you find chassidishe men talking to women in the street? And many of the women are not tzniusdikke.
Please don’t answer that they are trying to be mashpia on them because I have overheard many converstaions in stores and the like which are clearly plain kallus roish.
Unforunately the tznius level of much of gezh is atrocious and the younger the generation the worse it gets. Hashem Yeracheim!
And Lubavitch chumros regarding Eiruvin are not relevatnt. It is a machlokes of shittos between most Chassidim and Litvaks with Chassidim believing that letzoirech horabbim we should b meikel, and Lubavitch just happens to take up with the other side. Maybe because of their Litvishe origins.

Chossid: “All I see is that most of the world holds that the Rebbe was a tzadik and made miracles for everyone, and had ruach hakidesh.”

MOST of the chareidi world does not hold that. Litvaks don’t hold that, Satmar and its affiliates don’t hold that. Even most of the non-chareidi mizrachisten don’t hold that.

Chossid: “So why not just try it out instead of being so against it, it won’t hurt, and btw anyone that really tried it never really regrets it.
It really enhances your avodah to serve Hashem better. Personally tested.”

Are you talking about Ice or cocaine?

Saying “it won’t hurt” flies in the face of all those people I personally know who use the fact that they learn chabad chassidus as an excuse for davening late, talking incessantly during davening, not learning Gemoro. If they didn’t have that excuse they would be a lot better in many ways. And don’t counter with the standard argument of “imagine how bad they would be if they didn’t learn chassidus” because I knew a number of them before they began learning chassidus and they were standard regular Yidden who davened with a minyan, were basically quiet in shul etc.

And the fact that no one regrets it doesn’t make it good. No one regrets suicide either.

I skim through the stuff written here once or twice a day. I’m not going to bother responding to much, mainly due to lack of time. Also, regarding davening to Hashem at the Rebbes Tziyun, reference one of the earlier threads from months ago where I wrote about it at length.