The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

For your information, the Torah Temima argues on the whoke thing and says that the order of kadusha only applies of seforim in parchment otherwise there is no difference

Good! tell THAT to a Lubavitcher, and he will show you his true colors…..

And i assume midwesterner is clarifying *their* message, not stating his own.

A happy sweet new year to all of you! You should be zocheh to the Light of Chassidus this year!

@TT- Oh, yes, b’ezras Hashem, so should you, instead of your AZ religion.

Seeing how CS says gut yom tov today it might be worth posters knowing why Lubavitch celebrates not only Kiselv 19, which is the day the Baal haTanya got out of prison.
The story goes that after being released he was taken to the wrong apartment and instead of being in the house of a chosid he was in the house of a misnged where he was forced to debate his host for three hours and defend chasidus. He later famously said that those three hours were worse than the entire time he spent in prison. This happened on Kislev 20.
Now the fact is that there is no source for this story other than the writings of the Frierdicke Rebbe Rav Yoseph Yitzchok and no one had heaerd of it for more than 100 years until he came around.
When I was in Lubavitch I used to believe it just as I believed all the other fantasies I was told. Now not only don’t I believ it but I think it’s disgusting to put those words in the Baal haTanya’s mouth just so that the gullible chasidim can get drunk an extra day and hate misnagdim even more than they had.

I never said that Tanya has more Kedusha than a Chumash, nor a Gemara, all I said is that some Chassidim won’t place any other Sefer on top of a Tanya, that includes even the Rebbes own Seforim, such as Likkutei Sichos or Maamarim. There is no Halacha that says that one MUST place certain Seforim on top of others.

Seriously, there might be some actual issues in Lubavitch, but this isn’t one of them. It doesn’t contradict any Halacha not to place a Chidushei HaRashba (for example) on top of a Tanya. Tanya was and is revered by almost all Chassidim, not just Chabad as an extremely Heilige Sefer. It’s not about generations and Achronim and Rishonim, it’s about the Sefer itself. No one has a problem placing a Ketzos on top of a Shulchan Aruch HaRav for example. Or a Likkutei Torah (another one of the Alter Rebbes Seforim).

SHY: “all I said is that some Chassidim won’t place any other Sefer on top of a Tanya… There is no Halacha that says that one MUST place certain Seforim on top of others.”

You’re right that there is no halacha that one MUST place certain sefarim on top of others, but it is still improper if someone doesn’t do so because he “feels” that it is more respectful this way even though halachically there is nothing wrong with it.

“Feeling” this way is tantamount to saying, if I had written the halacha I would have done so differently.

Or perhaps I’m dealing with a Chagas chassid here…

Sechel:

It’s not the action, it’s the principle. Saying stuff like “Torah shb’chsav of Chassidus” will already make people a little uneasy. Actually having hanhagas based around it goes a step over the line.

As for the fact that you never said it has more kedushah than a Gemara, you didn’t need to. All you had to say is that it’s OK to put a Chumash on top of a Gemara, but not on top of a Tanya.

Wow! The Tanya must really be heilig!! Not only a chumash, but they won’t even put Likutei Sichos or maamarim on top of it!

Wow! The Tanya must really be heilig!! Not only a chumash

Isn’t a חת״ת something where a חומש is on top of a תניא?

A friend pointed out to me that none of the lubavichers in the forum have objected or even commented to my mentioning twice that the Rayatz’s writings were works of creative fiction. He wanted to know whether that means that even in lubavich it is accepted as such. I told him I don’t think so but that I would ask.

So what do CS et al say?

I tried to respond but my posts won’t go through. I guess that’s this site’s version of a balanced discussion – letting you malign the kedoshei elyon and making it look as if we agree by blocking our responses.

After holding my self back many days of not posting, I finally couldn’t hold my self back. Especially on this recent comment

Toi “And i laughed out loud. You go write to the Rebbe. Did you know he is dead? Are you aware that attempting to communicate with dead people is assur? Do you care? Is he not dead? Have you decided to show your true colors now that all bets are off and you’ve dug yourself in deep enough that anyone who reads this thread can quickly discern that your hashkafos (and that’s being generous) are utterly insane? Holy moley.”

And I almost started crying. Have you ever heard of writing a letter or davening to a tzadik (like for example the rashbi or like by kaver rochul) for a brocha, that they should be a mielitz yoisher for us? Like kolev been yefuneh davened by the kivrei Avois that he should be saved from the meraglim. We are not davaning to them cas vesholom, we are asking them that they should ask Hashem to give us brochos.
Really surprised
And besides the point you don’t write on a tzadik the word dead we write he passed away.

Wow! The Tanya must really be heilig!! Not only a chumash, but they won’t even put Likutei Sichos or maamarim on top of it!

Ever heard of such a thing as a Leshitascha?

Even Leshitascha, that we respect the Rebbe too much, we wouldn’t have a problem with a Gemara or a Mishna, or a Ketzos, Nesivos, or Igros Moshe for that matter on top of a Likkutei Sichos.[1]

[1]. Do I get put in Cheirem for comparing a Mishna to an Igros Moshe? Or for saying that I’d put an Igros Moshe on top of a Gemara?

tfaceBURN
“The story goes that after being released he was taken to the wrong apartment and instead of being in the house of a chosid he was in the house of a misnged where he was forced to debate his host for three hours and defend chasidus. He later famously said that those three hours were worse than the entire time he spent in prison. This happened on Kislev 20.
Now the fact is that there is no source for this story other than the writings of the Frierdicke Rebbe Rav Yoseph Yitzchok and no one had heaerd of it for more than 100 years until he came around.
When I was in Lubavitch I used to believe it just as I believed all the other fantasies I was told. Now not only don’t I believ it but I think it’s disgusting to put those words in the Baal haTanya’s mouth just so that the gullible chasidim can get drunk an extra day and hate misnagdim even more than they had.”

Just a small questiont faceBURN yes or no, are you arguing with the friediker Rebbe and saying that this story is false? And if yeah (which I hope not, just I don’t see that in your words) who are you to say such a thing?. Not only that, you say that “it’s disgusting” for the friediker Rebbe to put words in the Bal hatanyas mouth.

Btw I have been to around five chabad Farbrengens in this past two days and I haven’t seen any bochur drunk ( the Rebbe made a gizerah that the people under 40 can’t drink more than 4 kelishklach). And at least when they do drink it’s at and only by a frum and chassidiche atmosphere (not like when the litvaks drink, like you see especially in Israel).

I’m really sorry to see your comment is just out of hate. I really don’t think it’s your fault at all just might be the atmosphere you were brought up.

Just a small questiont faceBURN yes or no, are you arguing with the friediker Rebbe and saying that this story is false? And if yeah (which I hope not, just I don’t see that in your words) who are you to say such a thing?. Not only that, you say that “it’s disgusting” for the friediker Rebbe to put words in the Bal hatanyas mouth.

Not only is he saying that the story is false (with practically no source), but that

1. The Frierdicker Rebbe invented it. Not that he had a tradition about it, not that there was a tradition that burtface didn’t have (which would be quite expected. The Frierdiker Rebbe was born in 5640. The Alter Rebbe was arrested in 5558 or so. He was born within a generation of the event. And considering that he was a son of the Rebbe Rashab, he had access to many Chassidim, including a few of the Alter Rebbe, that others didn’t. And considering that anyone burntface saw in Lubavitch was, at most, a bochur in the Rebbe Rashab’s times, there’s no way for him to be able to say “I was around the same time and no one heard the story”). Not even that there was a broken telephone, or that the person he heard it from made a mistake. Not even that the person he heard it from invented it. No. He invented it, all on his own.

2. He said this so we’d “get drunk an extra day”. That’s what the Rebbe and Frierdicker wanted. For us to be drunk. You know, they made a Takanah for us to drink at least 770 ounces a day of 77.0% alcohol /s.

For all those who don’t get the reference. The Rebbe said, time and time again, and the Frierdicker Rebbe said, that Mashke is a disgusting drink, and the Rebbe said, many times, that anyone who calls himself a Lubavitcher may not drink more than a Revy’is (Following Reb Avrohom Chaim No’eh’s shiur 🙂 ) of Mashke a farbrengen (the famous “no more than 4 rule”).

And that’s an absolute maximum. If you’ll get Shikkur on less than that, you can’t have that either. And there are no exceptions. Not Yud Shevat, not Purim, not even Simchas Torah, Nada.

Sorry. That was a type.

It should have said “not Simchas Torah, and not even Purim”.

There’s no requirement to drink on Simchas Torah. There is one on Purim. And although we traditionally didn’t rely on the Rama’s hetter, due to Yeridas Hadoros we can’t drink the right way anymore.

” you must have missed the part where he says he was brought up Lubavitch!”
Thnks Syag. Believe it or not I too “ate he kasha of Tmchei Tmimim”!
Regarding whether I believe the Friedicke Rebbe made up the story. I do. Totally. Chof Kislev was never mentioned as a day of celeberation in Lubavitch before the FR decided to tell us the story about the lowlife misnaged. Of course this isn’t the only time he denigrates misnagdim in his memoirs. IT’s part of his purpose in writing the book!
Someone also argued with my snipe alluding to Lubavitchers getting drunk all the time by saying that they drink in a much less digusting way than Litvak bochrim. Who mentioned Litvaks? I am not a Litvak, as you would know if you paid attention, and I don’t really care for their lifestyle and hashkofos (not that I have witnessed them getting drunk in Israel, although perhaps you are referring to Americn bochrim learning in Israeli Litvish yeshivahs, and in which case you may have a valid point.)I am talking about chassidim of all other types. Since I joined another well-known but much smaller chassidus about a year after Gimel Tamuz I have witnessed less than twenty cases of drunkenness. But when I go to a Lubavitch wedding of one of my relatives there are always at least two drunks. And they are not the town drunks as they seem to rotate the honor.
I’d now like to comment on what you non-Lubavitch-born people don’t seem to realize. There is a very simple systm in Lubavitch and you are all falling prey to it. Two rules.
1. What we want to be true is true.
2. What we don’t want doesnt exist.
In categoary 1 we have “the Rebbe is alive” “the Rebbe is Moshiach” “the Rebbe is clearly the biggest talmid chochom of our times” “the Rebbe loved every Jew” “shluchim act out of commitment to the Rebbe and bringing Moshiach” and many more.
In category 2 we have “drinking is not a problem in Lubavitch” “proper tznius is not lacking in Luvabitch” “there are no real major fights between Lubavitchers” “shluchim don’t act in a selfish manner” and others.
So there is no wa that you can ever get them to admit they were wrong. Not because they are all just plain liars but because they have been taught (and I was too – Boruch Hashem I managed to rid myself of it) the weird skill of believing what they want to believe.
In their minds they will always have won the argument and they will be amazed why you aren’t admitting it.

Rso I hear your question.
But how would you explain the Gemorah?
And do you know how a sundail works? I definitely don’t.
And really doesn’t make to me that he would write a fiction with so many names

tfaceBURN
First of all nobody thinks that lubavitch doesn’t have problems, lubavitch has meny problems (and tznius is one of them).
Second why do you think your more right then the friediker Rebbe? What holds you back from saying that the Bal Shem tovs chassidus is all made up, rashbi – Zoar is made up, and it’s all not true? CV”S. Obviously they were holy people (all according to their level). Where does your opinion come into the picture? Bemeileh your a godol or a Rebbe or you were there at the time of yud tes kislav, you can have an opinion and say it’s not true. Really surprised.

In answer to whether I know how a sundial works, we made one in third grade as a science project.

Do I know how to make one that is accurate for a particular location for the entire year? No, but you can look that up in wikipedia. Do I know WHY a sundial shows the time and that it CANNOT BE AFFECTED BY TREES ON A MOUNTAIN somewhere beyond the horizon or even close to it? Most definitely yes.

The story says that the sundial had only stopped working for the preceding two years, so it must have been built correctly. Even according to the story the Baal Hatanya did not say there was anything wrong with the sundial. He said it was trees that could not be seen (if they could be seen they wouldn’t have needed the Baal Hatanya to tell them that the trees were blocking the sun!) that were affecting it. I have known since that science project in third grade that only if something blocks the sun the sundial won’t work.

As to your question: “And how would you explain the Gemorah (which doesn’t say how far the object has to be, it just says onc it begins to move something can block it.” You have not only shown that you don’t know how a sundial works, you have also known that you don’t know which Gemoro the story is referring to.

The only quote from the Gemoro in the story is “The Talmud states that at midday the sun is directly overhead”. That’s it. There is no reference in the Gemoro that once it moves something can block it. That was an alleged explanation of the Baal Hatanya. And it is so obvious that I’m beginning to wonder whether you were perhaps born in a cave and have never seen the sunlight and how the sun casts shadows.

Finally, a sundial displays the time in shaos zemanios, so “between two and five in the afternoon” means that the sundial allegedly started malfunctioning two shaos zemanios after midday and the began functioning properly again a sha’ah zemanis before sunset. If you can plant trees that will affect a sundial only at those hours you deserve a Nobel Prize in Science!

Since I joined another well-known but much smaller chassidus about a year after Gimel Tamuz I have witnessed less than twenty cases of drunkenness. But when I go to a Lubavitch wedding of one of my relatives there are always at least two drunks. And they are not the town drunks as they seem to rotate the honor.

Yes. The Rebbe explicitly tried stopping that. Many times. It just has an extremely old history (it’s been going on back in Russia for a long time). And while it’s hard to break old habits, there is definitely a growing awareness among that drinking more than 4 is simply not Chassidish. So while it’s wrong, we all know it’s wrong.

In category 2 we have “drinking is not a problem in Lubavitch” “proper tznius is not lacking in Luvabitch” “there are no real major fights between Lubavitchers” “shluchim don’t act in a selfish manner” and others.

So out of those points, it’s simply not true that we don’t realize these things. The “no more than 4” Takana is there and Mashpiyim talk about it. People who care what the Rebbe said, won’t drink more than 4, and those who don’t care, do whatever they want anyways.

The thing with Tznius is that I’m a guy, so I don’t know the details. But what I’ve heard from someone who’s hanging out with Lubavitch and Litvish is that it really depends on which circles within Chabad you frequent.

The thing with Lubavitch is that there’s no such thing as “membership ID”. You have people who aren’t shomer Shabbbos yet who come to a Chabad house and call themselves “Chabad”. I don’t know how this works in other Chassidic circles, but practically anyone can walk into a Chabad shul and eat the herring, and no one will check if you put on Rabbeinu Tam that morning. So you have people that aren’t careful about Tznius who can call themselves Chabad, you have people that aren’t careful about anything who can call themselves Chabad.

So it’s true that in other communities, someone who, say, has a TV at home will be asked to leave the school system and will be made uncomfortable in the community. I’m not blaming those communities, it makes sense – you don’t want to give a Hechsher to their behavior.

But when you compare Crown Height to something, you can’t just compare it to Lakewood. You really have to compare it to Lakewood + Flatbush + Modern Orthodox, and it’s not fair to blame Chabad for Chabad lite and not blame Brisk for YU.

But the truth is that there are plenty of Frum Lubavitchers. I mean, beards, Pas Yisroel and Chalav Yisroel is a baseline. I don’t think I ever walked into a Chabad house serving not Pas Yisrael or Chalav Yisrael foods. The most popular boys Cheder, by far, in Crown Heights doesn’t teach Limmudei Chol (and Man Dachar Shmei teaching Greek Mythology or novels), Kal Vachomer college is totally and completely forbidden in any Lubavitch Yeshiva. I can just imagine the look on Rabbi Labkovsky’s (the Rosh Yeshiva in 770) or Reb Yoel Kahan (the Mashpiya (Lubavitch equivalent of Mashgiach) of 770) face if you tell him that you want to go to college while in 770, or Rabbi Heller (the Rosh Kollel in Crown Heights) for that matter. Even after Kollel it’s heavily frowned at, and I don’t just mean secular college. I’m talking about places like Touro. The people who can, speak Yiddish to their children, and many send their children to Chadarim where the Melamdim teach only in Yiddish. Those who can’t (because they’re Israelis or because they’re BTs) obviously don’t. But it’s not out of the norm. And yes, there are many Lubavitch families without internet, or with heavily filtered internet, who won’t even go to Frum news sites because of Bittul Zman (which is why there are so few of us here, and the ones that do come here tend to be on the lighter side). All the more so that it’s a normal thing that Movies (old, clean, kosher, children’s. Doesn’t matter. Still Traif), sports, non-Jewish/not-Frum music (doesn’t matter if it’s clean or classical. Still Traif.) and non-Jewish/not-Frum books is completely Mufrach, and even regular Frum novels are “Ehh – it’s borderline.”

In terms of Kashrus, being Makpid of Heimisher Hashgachos is quite common, and in Israel there are plenty of people who’ll only eat Badatz Eidah HaChareidis and Rav Landau Bnei Brak.

There are plenty of people in Lubavitch who finish Shas. Some of them made big events for their Siyum which showed up online. I knew quite a few who didn’t. And remember that Lubavitch is a relatively small movement. Crown Heights has what, a few thousand families? And that’s the largest Chabad community in North America.

We don’t rely on big-city Eiruvin, and only the litest of the lite Crown Heightsers rely on its Eiruv. And the same applies to other cities.

And while I do admit that all this is fairly normal in the Chassidisher world, it definitely isn’t in the (American) Litvishe world, and definitely not by many of those who criticize us for not being Frum enough.

“We don’t rely on big-city Eiruvin, and only the litest of the lite Crown Heightsers rely on its Eiruv. And the same applies to other cities.

And while I do admit that all this is fairly normal in the Chassidisher world, it definitely isn’t in the (American) Litvishe world, and definitely not by many of those who criticize us for not being Frum enough.”

I do laud Chabad’s strictness with regards to eruvim. And, you are right that–on average–Lubavitchers are more likely to be machmir here than American Litvaks. Just one fact check: you said it’s more normal in the Chassidish world to be machmir on eruvin. This is not true. Most Chassidim have a mesora to be meikel in this halachah. Even to the degree that many hold by the Brooklyn eruvin.