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Non Political:
I don’t mind you trying to see CS’s points and/or help her out, but why, of all places, did you decide to come in at this point and defend that alleged statement? Even in the imaginary case you mentioned, which is completely improbable, why would he have to use the word “snag?”
I could have easily been convinced that the statement was never made. For once, CS could have actually swept something under the rug, given a non-answer like “that story never happened,” and I would have been OK with it. Because, truthfully, I find it a bit dubious that a shliach ever actually made the statement in question. I think all of us are a little more horrified by it being justified than the story itself, which was just hearsay.
CS: “Rso: Imagine a goy came up to you and said do you believe “Atem kruim adam vain haakum korui adam?” Yes or no. That would not be very fair at all. Because what you mean by yes and what he understands by yes is very different.”
Not the same at all. If a goy would start a thread based on what HE believes in, I wouldn’t join it. If a Yid starts a thread that tries to distort what I believe in I would – and do and am – reply to it and try to get things straight.
I will BH be at a close relative’s simchah until early next week, so my reading and posting will probably only be intermittent.
The only reason I’m telling you this is so that you won’t assume shtikah kehoda’ah if I don’t argue with CS 🙂
CS: “in normal situations we ask what the halacha is and don’t rely on how neshama deep it is. But it can definitely add. And in rare cases even be relied upon (such as pinchas, Queen Esther etc)”
1. You are neither of those two tzaddikei olam, and you won’t deny that, so your proof is non-existent.
2. Just as you think it “adds”, reform and conservative also claim it adds. But it doesn’t. It detracts.Have you ever thought something was right/correct/proper and later discovered to your dismay that it wasn’t? If you have then you have no way of being sure of what resonates with your neshama as opposed to your yetzer hara. And if you haven’t, then you are not human.
Btw just to make it perfectly clear, this is not an argument against lubavich, it is an argument against your personal philosphy. Of course, you may very likely claim that it is lubavich philosophy, in which case it wll be agains lubavich.
The original statement was: “it’s better to be a frei yid who holds the rebbe’s moshiach than a snag who’s frum.”
NP said it was justifiable in the following scenario:
Guy 1 – Is Frei (not careful with kashrus, relationships with other gender, ect) but not mechalel Shabbos publicly and not an oved Avoda Zora
Guy 2 – Holds there isn’t going to be ANY Moshiach.
So he made the frei guy frum, and the frum guy frei.
That’s not putting it into context, that’s distorting it beyond recognition.
Nice try, I guess, but no dice.
“Guy 2 – Holds there isn’t going to be ANY Moshiach.”
Hold on. That’s not a snag by anyone’s definition. That’s an apikorus. Of course, in lubavich they may be closely related, but they’re not the same.
Anybody know why I stopped receiving email notification of follow up replies? I did not select the block notification icon.
@CS,
I didn’t attack NP for not attacking you, and I don’t know where you saw something of the sort.
You are the one who believes that this did or feasibly could’ve happened with a Shliach, therefore you must try justify it. Firstly, if something is objectively wrong, no need to justify it. Secondly, you don’t have to believe it happened to then go and give it context and justification. I have no qualms saying that I don’t believe a Shliach said such a thing, and לו יצוייר that it did happen, that Shliach is a nut. Not very hard to call out such words.I’m not sure where you are going with the “Ahavas Yisrael starts at home” thing, that doesn’t change the *fact* that a Shliach is a representative of the Rebbe, as appointed by Merkos L’Inyonei Chinuch. That’s not debatable, that’s the exact system the Rebbe established, as directed by R Hodakov, and later, by R Kotlarsky. I’m surprised that today’s PC culture of “one can identify as he wishes” seems to have gotten to some Lubavitchers in this context…
@ NCB
“but why, of all places, did you decide to come in at this point and defend that alleged statemen
I wasn’t defended that statement chv”sh. The statement as a whole is indefensible because:
1) It claims the Rebbe is Moshiach
2) It addresses a whole segment of Yidden with a derogatory nameI was merely providing the context wherein the part of the statement which appears to be a glaringly irreconcilable stira can be made to shtim.
@ DY
“That’s not putting it into context, that’s distorting it beyond recognition.”
I prefer to look at it as a slight nip tuck, with professionally applied make up.
“I assume you know that so why are you asking the question”
It wasn’t a question
Although does anyone else feel this thread is getting kind of boring and the arguments are becoming mere nitpicking? Or is it just me and APY
No, I realized no ones going to convince you what you believe is wrong and vice versa which is why we are called עם קשי עורף which is a good way to keep us Jewish btw
It’s been boring for a long time, but I don’t know that I would call it nit-picky.
I’m kind of bored of the anti-vaxxer stuff too, though. Someone needs to start an interesting thread, otherwise I might be forced to get a real life.
If it was Adar, I might find this “discussion” relevant .
One of your previous posts: “One is condidered a tzadik and should be followed, UNLESS, he tells you to worship other gods, or tells you to not observe one of the Mizvos”
Sorry to harp in like this, but I have 2 cassettes on which the Rebbe says that “We don’t have to do Yom Kippur Kattan”, because “Mir hobben shoin oisgeputzt die knepplich”.!! Yom Kippur Kattan that was established by Chacmei Hasha”s, is mentioned in the Talmud, is a Halacha in Shulchan Aruch – including Shulcha Aruch Harav- so how does a contemporary Rav take upon himself to abolish it?Yom Kippur Katan should be said at least twice a year, Rosh Chodash Elul and Rosh Chodash Nissan.
@ CS
“Like we said it’s not necessarily a list of must have but common pointers we see by those Torah leaders / tzaddikim”
I wrote that you are right that the list of 3 criteria wasn’t meant as a check list in that you need “all of the above” and davka these 3. !!However!! what they have in common is –
>>> they are an objective expressions of the seriousness with which other Rabbonim take his Torah. <<<
That common denominator is not negotiable
It is one thing not to say Yom Kippur Kattan, whether laziness, inconvenient, or just plain negligence, but it is a different pot of soup when you say that it is NOT NECESSARY to say it, because we are CLEAN OF AVEIROS! If we are so clean, WHY is Moshiach not here yet? This borders on “Megale panim b’Torah…”
We don’t say Tachnun either on many days that are NOT mentioned in Shulchan Aruch just b/c we don’t feel like it, but we are NOT MEVATEL A HALACHA PESUKA!Shlucha = “Btw to all of those of you saying that’s an apikorus but no litvak would say such a thing – a more realistic statement would be along the lines of, I could care less if moshiach comes in 200 years and I don’t give any thought to it at all. As long as I get my schar I’m happy. That would be a more realistic kefira statement ”
Careful – you dont want the snags to know that the Frierdiker Rebbe revealed to us that they think this way! Lol
Anyways with regard to the question above, OF COURSE the Rebbe loved all Jews, including teenagers exploring avoda Zara in India, people angry at G-d, or exploring all types of forbidden things. Oh yeah and also Reis Yesiveis who were noisdu yochad al Hashem veal Meshichoi. Why wouldn’t he love them? Me, as a chossid, I find it more difficult to lo e them, as in the story with Reb Shmuel Munkes. But you cannot judge the Rebbe by his chassidim.
Careful – you dont want the snags to know that the Frierdiker Rebbe revealed to us that they think this way! Lol
frankly I am sick of your trash talk. you seem to have some major social issues but have found yourself an outlet. To the extent that the above line is accurate your leaders were sick individuals. Breeding hate seems to be the rule of the day, and claiming to love every jew (except the ones they don’t love) is the smoke and mirrors they hide it behind.
I’m sick to my stomach.
Shlucha: the Langeh Brief is a justification? Of what?
“Yom Kippur Kattan that was established by Chacmei Hasha”s, is mentioned in the Talmud”
Can you please give me a source for that?
Who are Chagas Chasidim?
CS – In many Chasidic shuls no Tachnun is said if there is a Rebbe’s yarzeit, although, in some shuls the instigator of the yarzeit observance
has to give Tikkun.
People are quite lax about saying extra things, even Yom Kippur Katan in most communities, but to come out and say that we have “oisgepuzt die kneplach”, is mamesh going AGAINST the Shulchan Aruch! One must have “brete pleizces” to say such a thing.Chagga chassidim, are they the followers of the Chagga Rebbe, he of the red bekitsha?
Oh please CS, don’t equate me with this newcomer loonbag. That’s insulting. You may not like my posts, but every single one was on point, even if they made you uncomfortable, and even if I didn’t couch them in politically correct language to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy. But I’m not a nutto like your friend. I already told you, I think you’ve unconsciously done enough to harm your own position, you’ve shown what chabad is all about, and so my posts aren’t really accomplishing any more; you’re just too good at this for your own good. And for some reason Syag and others keep digging, like they’ll find some new info or rationalizations on the subject. Enjoy life down that rabbit hole.
not new info, just maybe some responsibility for what is said and how things are presented. But I don’t have high hopes anymore.
CS: “as you said earlier that this is something that historically the Chabad teased the chagas chassidim about. And you are Chagas yourself”
This is another one of your lubavich slogans. Chabad vs Chagas (for those who have asked, Chagas stands for Chessed, Gevurah, Tifferes, the first three of the middos, as opposed to Chabad, the mochin). Their denigration of “Poilishe” chassidim is so way off the mark that it would be laughable if it didn’t cause so much damage.
Learn our sefarim, listen to what our Rebbe (actually Rebbes, because there are groups other than mine) demands, and you’ll be shocked at how you were brainwashed and your head filled with absolute lies.
There is no more “Poilishe” chassidus nowadays than Chabad with all the Yechi garbage and all the relying on hergesh (one example of many: a lubavicher relative who was present when the minyan started, davened shachris after chatzos because, as he told me, he wasn’t “ready” to daven earliler. I watched him daven late and he davened no differently than he had davened any other day), and no differently than any of the other lubavichers who had davened with the minyan.)
You can call me Chagas or whatever you want, but just now that you are totally brainwashed! Have you ever discussed this with a non-lubavicher Chassidishe Yid, i.e. not some story you heard from the daughter of a rebbe, or the like?
Anybody know why I stopped receiving email notification of follow up replies?
I did not select the block notification icon.I recently saw a post saying that system is messed up.
(You might have noticed by the lack of links to later pages of some
threads on the main page that this forum doesn’t work perfectly.)CS and Sechel – Story not made up.
Sorry for the late response – I had no email updates. The Shliach is an Israeli shliach (70 year old sefardi) who was sent by the rebbe personally to a shchuna down south. And he was trying to convince me (and I was bored.) – big yechi kippa, yellow flag, igros etc.BTW CS and Sechel, do you believe 90% of the igros stories?
BTW, sechel Hayashar, why the jump to say I made up the story? We all know there are certain elements in Chabad that could have made that statement, even if it’s not mainstream.
The problem is that cuckoo thought has penetrated chabad so much so that no one feels like standing up and saying something about. it. Just one – one clear cut Kol Koreh that the rebbe is not moshiach, and chabad will have been integrated back to the mainstream. But we never get that, we get denials, excuses, accusations, and explanations, and from the nonmeshichist branch statements that “while of course the rebbes dead, it doesn;t mean he’s not moshiach. But we won;t publicise it because its not achdus.”
Even Aga”ch’s Kol Koreh never came out and said clearly “The Rebbe is not Moshiach.” While I’m sure the majority of Aga”ch kol koreh believe that the rebbe is in fact not moshiach, they would never say it, because they would be out of chabad. Just ask Rabbi Yechezkel Sofer and the other so called kofrim (yes that’s what chabd is called a kofer – someone who DOESNT believe th rebbe’s moshiach) why they feel in chabad today.
CS – he was trying to convince me the rebbe’s moshiach, so I asked him some basic questions, like where in the rambam does it say that moshiach will live forever (considering that the rebbe said that the rambam is the final posek in regards to mashiach) and whether if the rebbetzin A”H would be allowed to remarry if she was still alive (or maybe she is still alive??)
In response, he told me, we don’t understand and we just have to have emuna in the rebbe and to learn nunaleph nunbeis sichos.
BTW in regard to the original conversation, I personally feel the Rebbe ztl was a gadol (one of many), not moshaich (obvs), and happen to be a fan of Rabbi yitzchak Ginsberg, I think chabd tho has to make a big cheshbon hanefesh and draw a line in the sand,
“YR sechel and his circle of friends dont use iggros.”
I.e. the anti-meshichists… As opposed to your circle: the meshichists.“Just haven’t found other chassidim yet like those of which you speak who study their own Rebbe’s Chassidus and view their Rebbe like we do ours.”
You never will because you refuse to see it because you’re brainwashed. How is this not getting through to you? You really expect us to believe you met significant amounts of Satmars and none of them learned Divrei Yoel? I might believe that you THINK that, but I don’t believe it’s actually true. As far as “viewing their Rebbe like you do,” yeah… as we’ve said, the rest of the frum velt poskens that the way you view your Rebbe is kefira, so you’ll have trouble finding that. Were you under the impression that all Chassidim believe their Rebbe to be moshiach?“Here you find many regular yidden whose “hisnagdus” is mostly due to ignorance (of classic sources on moshiach and Geula, of the Halachos on how to treat a Rebbe etc etc)”
Did you think this was a private message to TT that the rest of us couldn’t see? Or did you just think we would be totally fine with your assertion that we’re totally ignorant of the halachah and need Chabad to educate us? Are we on crazy pills or something? The world is not a secular college campus! There are frum people that know stuff. Many of whom might know more than you. Get over it! Stop trying to be mekarev people who don’t need it.
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