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Lololololol.
OK, that’s now my favorite part of this whole thread.
“In fact the only known Yeshiva that predated the Frierdiker Rebbe that I am aware of is Torah Vodaas.”
Yeshivas Chafetz Chaim
Chaim Berlin
New Haven, after a couple of metamorphoses presently Ner Israel
Skokie
MTJ
RJJ
Chafetz Chaim TA of Baltimore
There was also something of the sort in Toronto“I am well aware that Chabbad had a Yeshiva, Rav Gustman had a position there.”
He was advised to leave in the late ’40s. Which he did.” he supported all Torah institutions and launched programs for even frum kids…”
The Vaad Hatzoloh rescue during the war was cross political and cross ideological. The only grouping
that gave them difficulty working with was Chabad.1) He is regarded as a Gadol b’Torah by the Gedolim already established as such.
This means that they give serious weight to his opinion in their own Halachic rulings.
2) His Torah is studied widely in Yeshivos and Kollelim
3) Community Rebbeim (of various communities) turn to this person with their own shailos
There have been many known tzaddikim who did not meet all of those criteria.
According to the Wikipedia page on The Rebbe, the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference, the book includes a letter from Rabbi Ahron Soloveichik to a friend explaining his position. The letter is quoted on the Wikipedia page.
without reading your response, I will assume by the length that you, once again, did not give a yes or no answer to your very own true false statement.
sighCS: “Regarding ahavas yisrael (syag, Rso)…”
I don’t know why I got a mention here. I didn’t question the meaning of Ahavas Yisrael. What I did say was that I don’t believe your statement – and I have heard it many times from many lubavichers – that your rebbe loved every Jew.
Don’t attack me because you can’t dig yourself out of this, I understood your posts perfectly. YOU made a clear black and white statement. YOU did, not me and not other posters. YOU said in simple true vs false, black vs white English that your rebbe loves EVERY Jew. Was this TRUE or was it a lie? It is your statement. Is it true or isn’t it? one word answer.
Cuz if the answer is not just simply YES, then your statement is sheker and should never have been made.Yes, or no.
I’m surprised that no one has mentioned that the official Lubavitch policy is that the Tanya is Torah Shebeksav of Chassidus and that you are not allowed to put a Sefer Torah on top of a Tanya.
Anyone want to comment on that?
@ Random3X
“There have been many known tzaddikim who did not meet all of those criteria”
I didn’t say one needed to meet ALL of the criteria
Love and hate are not binary. There is no inherent contradiction in having both feelings towards the same person. I know that sounds counterintuitive and I myself would not have thought so had I not heard Rabbi David Gottlieb develops this point exquisitely in one of his lectures.
CS: “What I meant by Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel was that rashi there says that someone who is known to you to be a tzadik (or whatever equivalent term is used), you follow him unless he tells you to serve another god or permanently cancels a mitzvah.”
As far as I remember it is not at all an equivalent term. It is a navi who is known to be a true navi. We don’t have one of those nowadays, regardless of the outlandish claims of the Lubavicher rebbe.
Yawn.
someone who is known to you to be a tzadik (or whatever equivalent term is used), you follow him unless he tells you to serve another god or permanently cancels a mitzvah.
You mean like, for example, sleeping in the succah?
“When someone asks you about your attitude about certain gedolim, and your answer
(#1624910) contains a comparison to someone’s attitude about “a Jew who clearly follows
a non-Torah path,” you’re kind of inviting trouble (even if you didn’t mean it that way).”I hear that.
You say you hear that, yet in your very next post you compare Rav Aharon Feldman to a mechallel Shabbos rachmono litzlon.
So if you cant say “yes he does love every jew”, then i guess it’s a statement you shouldnt be making to begin with.
CS for your response to Yeshiva Rockstar:
What you’re implying is that if it were “extreme 2,” it would be OK that the shliach said it? The point was not that he said something offensive; it’s that he actually believed something like that.
Also, even if it were “extreme 2,” I would say there was context to the context. On this thread, for example, it feels like the only way to get straight-forward, honest answers out of you people is to let it get to the point where you get angry at us. Otherwise, we keep getting 5 page essays that don’t answer our questions. Your shluchus dodging techniques are what is escalating the arguments, not dampening them.
“OK syag I’ll try once more.”
that’s a funny way to word something you are finally answering for the FIRST time after a handful of requests. But if it helps you feel like I’m the one who has been dodging questions, well, feel free I guess.
And thanks for the extra bit about my definition, which I have not given nor is it relevant. You were merely asked to qualify a statement you had already made on your own.
@ CS
“Gerrer Rebbe, Baba Sali and reb zusia for example weren’t involved with writing halacha (as far as I know) and were still seen as tzaddikim..This shows that the criterion here is not a specific list – just he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc.
This is true. Another example would be the Ramchal, we don’t have Halachic works from him. One could even point out that there was a strong opposition to him by other leading sages during his lifetime (a cherem on certain works even).
You are right that the list of 3 criteria wasn’t meant as a check list per se, it’s not that you need “all of the above” and davka these 3. You asked me what I would consider objective criteria for determining who is a Gadol and I gave 3 examples. However what they have in common is not “he is known and trusted to Torah true Jews by his behaviour etc”. Rather the common denominator is the seriousness with which other Rabbonim take his Torah.
Next point
“Also yes Torah true adherents add value. We see that ain melech blo am, and the Kings of today are the Rabbonim and Torah leaders. If someone tells you so and so is a Rebbe and he has two chassidim, you will think less of him than a Rebbe who has a thousand, because the fact that a thousand Torah true yidden have chosen him to inspire and guide their Avodas Hashem gives him more credence.”
The ARI HaKadosh, The RMCH”L, the GR”A and the BSH”T had a small number of direct Talmidim. No one considers them less of a Rebbe because of this.
Next Point
“And lastly by learning their Torah we see what kind of person or Torah great they were. Like the Or Hachaim for example”
Not necessarily. The learner has to be competent to evaluate.
“Yes I think in extreme 2 such a statement could be justified”
Just as a reminder, this was the statement which you find justifiable:
“it’s better to be a frei yid who holds the rebbe’s moshiach than a snag who’s frum.”If a black person provoked a shliach would it justify using racial slurs?
Why would being upset with an individual justify putting down frum people and calling them snags? Are you for real? You make statements like these that are undefensible and then spend pages explaining that we misunderstood. So if you irritate me or call Rav Ahron Kotler “that man” is it now okay for me to make a statement about the lubavitch community and call them some nivel peh? That statement is never okay, and to write it off as a statement by an Israeli not under mirkaz with a crazy kippa is lame.
Yes I think in extreme 2 such a statement could be justified (not that id make it myself.)
So you’re too nice to actually say it, but you do agree that a frei Yid who believes the Rebbe is Moshiach is better than a misnaged who doesn’t hold of the Rebbe.
CS,
I’m not sure why you gave an example of a crazy story from India etc, to justify the alleged comments of a supposed Shliach.
1. You can just say you wouldn’t say something crazy like that.
2. You don’t agree at all with such sentiment.
3. No Shliach you know would ever say otherwise think that.To make up a possible context to justify it is ludicrous. Let’s say a bitter guy come to my Chabad House and said those things, how can I tell him “better be frei than not believe the Rebbe is Moshiach”. Firstly, that’s not true, and you don’t think it is either, so why justify it?
Secondly, I’ve had open conversations with the kinds of non frum Israelis that visit India and such places, none of them believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, even if they take Chabads free food. Food is the way to the heart, not the brain:)
And this “Israeli Shliach not under Merkos” business, don’t make a fake story complete with fake characters to find a justification. The wacko Israelis with yellow flags and Yechi Yarmulkes in India (besides for Mumbai and Bangalore, which are real normal Shluchim) aren’t “Israeli Shluchim” they’re Israelis who self identify as Shluchim. You can’t be a Shliach “not under Merkos” it’s like being a US Marine not affiliated with the army. Every Shliach is under Merkos, if he’s not, he’s not a Shliach.To make it clear, such a statement is disgusting, and I don’t know any Lubavitch who would say such a thing. CS, you took the bait, someone makes up a ridiculous story, hoping you’ll justify it, and you did.
SH – thank you for saying everything she should have but doesn’t. It is nice to know that there is a faction who don’t hold of some of the things she is trying to defend. And I appreciate your honesty. At least until your last line. I wish you would understand that she is not being baited. I believe are 100% wrong about that. I believe we are being baited, if anyone. We are being drawn in by comments that change to other things when pursued and become misunderstandings and things that we are all just to uninformed and uneducated to understand.
I do believe that you would have answered most of this thread differently, and probably would not have drawn half the responses, but nobody is baiting her, nobody needs to bait her. She is, unfortunately, as you see in the example which you thankfully rescued, doing her own damage.
Syag, She never said that she and the Rebbe loved Rav Shach and Rav Kolter. She just repeated her statement that he loved every yid.
CS, can you please say the following to prove your point. “Even though the Rebbe disagreed/argued strongly against Rav Shach and Rav Kolter, he stilled loved them”. Thank younon-political – I have heard Rabbi Gottlieb say that and I agree completely. The point here is that she made a claim that her rebbe loves every yid but won’t say that he loves Rav Shach and Rav Kotler. She is just trying to hop on to your vort and say that because love and hate *can* coexist, there is no stira. But she still won’t say that he loves them (just that it is possible), and she won’t say *she* loves them, and she won’t say that anyone who *doesn’t* love them is doing an aveira according to the alter rebbe. (And not allowing a gadol’s sforim in your house is very hateful)
So while the point you bring is true, it has not been applied here. And knowing Rabbi Gottlieb, he probably would never make such a definitive, black vs white, true vs false claim in the first place!
she has torn the question into so many small pieces until it was finally a little scrap of paper that she felt she could begrudgingly answer. Do you get the impression from that that there is a possibility she will admit to the contradiction she has presented and address the fact that it is a valid problem? forget it.
@ SH
“To make up a possible context to justify it is ludicrous”
Do you mean ludicrous because no context could possibly exist under which such a statement would be true?
How about this:
The Shliach has 2 guests.
Guy 1 – Is Frei (not careful with kashrus, relationships with other gender, ect) but not mechalel Shabbos publicly and not an oved Avoda Zora
Guy 2 – Holds there isn’t going to be ANY Moshiach.
During the course of the meal Guy 2 says: Yo, there ain’t gonna be no Moshiach because “Its a like a bferush genara man, ain Moshiach l’Yisroel! And if there was a Moshiach, you think it would be your Rebbe?! Gee, you lubabs are really nuts. Hey, is this cholent mehadrin cause I only eat mehadrin man.
The shliach is taken aback. Then, deciding that with some people you gotta be a bit blunt, responds. Your asking me about mehadrin?! If you don’t believe in Moshiach that guy over there (nods in direction of Guy 1) is better off then you are?! And if I’m such a apikoros why are you eating my cholent in the first place?
Maybe, you meant ludicrous because you deem such a scenario as highly unlikely and you hold ludicrous is a synonymous for not likely.
@NonPolitical:
(Oh, the irony!)
Saying on doesn’t believe the Rebbe to be Moshiach and denying the Bias HaMoshiach are two very different things. If one doesn’t believe in the coming of Moshiach he’s a Kofer Bikkar, while one who doesn’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach hasn’t committed any Aveirah.That being the case, Person #1 is not a Kofer, while Person #2, though he insists on Mehadrin Cholent, is still a Kofer. To quote the Rambam:
הַמֶּלֶךְ הַמָּשִׁיחַ עָתִיד לַעֲמֹד… …וכָל מִי שֶׁאֵינוֹ מַאֲמִין בּוֹ. אוֹ מִי שֶׁאֵינוֹ מְחַכֶּה לְבִיאָתוֹ. לֹא בִּשְׁאָר נְבִיאִים בִּלְבַד הוּא כּוֹפֵר. אֶלָּא בַּתּוֹרָה וּבְמשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ.
I don’t think this is new information to you, so why exactly we’re you asking this question?A number of us seem to be having great difficulty in getting Yes or No answers to direct questions from CS. Perhaps we should compile a list of those questions and then nag and nag until we get answers.
I would suggest that to be fair CS should be allowed to give explanations to her Yes or No answer, but only in a different post after having first answered the question.
If people agree we need someone to compile the list. Any takers?
CS: “I guess if you’ve never experienced it you won’t know what I’m talking about. But I also know this feeling is experienced by many I have come in contact with as well.
…
…So what am I talking about? How about the shabbos atmosphere after candle lighting. That neshama sense of holiness. Goyim don’t have that. So that’s a start to understand what I’m talking about.
But really what I mean is when something clicks to the core of the neshama and uplifts the whole person with the resulting joy.”You’re missing the point. How do you know that it is “clicking” with your neshama and not with your yetzer hara. What you are describing above is what most lubavichers make fun of as Chagas/Poilisher-chassidus!
Not frum Yidden are still full Yidden, so why shouldn’t they think that something they have learnt in a reform temple, and which is R”L against the Torah, is “clicking with their neshama”. It’s very dangerous ground that you are treading.
I once had someone tell me that he has a spiritual uplift when the Yankees win a game! Seriously. He really thought that it clicked with his neshama.
RSo – no, forget it. Several of us have pushed for answers, even just clarifying statements already made, and pushing for actual responses has resulted in being called agressive, attacking, baiting, misunderstanding, not reading the posts, not having a background to know the answer, being a hater, being anti libavitch and being insincere. By several different chabadniks. So either there is no allowamce for asking a question and expecting a straight answer, or really we are just a bunch of snags who will always be accused of having an agenda.
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