The world is in a state of Geula- and don’t misunderstand us!

Regarding coverting post 1:

So does that mean we want everyone to become lubavitchers?

As sechel said, no. Or if you want the real truth, yes but no. There’s levels of the ideals of the Rebbes vision:

Step one: getting everyone to do Torah and mitzvos

Step two: everyone should learn Chassidus

And step 3: the ultimate (which sechel didn’t address) everyone, while remaining in their own kreiz, with their own unique minhagim and chumros etc, should unite under the Rebbe/ the Rebbe’s horaos and if this would happen for sure moshiach would be here, no doubt about it.

We saw this in the midbar: every shevet had their own Nassi of the shevet, and their own unique way of serving Hashem, and yet they were united under Moshe Rabbeinu.

Later on, in eretz Yisrael, they united under one shofet and later on, one king. And so we will by moshiachs times as well.

But this is not coverting – like steps one and two- its a choice that everyone makes for themselves without any coercion. Ain melech blo am. As has been the case with Torah leaders throughout history.

Also, another thing, each step has merit on its own. Shluchim feel fortunate that a yid does mitzvos even if he never becomes frum. Because the mitzvah itself has value. And there are many who stay that way. There are also many who go the full length bh to the next level and become frum. Yidden who are frum can take their Yiddishkeit to the next level by learning Chassidus. Stage three is something that we don’t expect, are not looking to do – if someone wants to take that upon themselves, then we respect them for it.

And in many ways the frum world has moved in this direction with regards to how they view fellow Jews who aren’t/ are less frum etc. But the point is its something that has to come from within and from a feeling of conviction that this is the right thing to do.

Whereas lhavdil elef havdolos, the non Jewish missionary way (I took a Jews from Judaism class once) is to a) take things out of context or b) mistranslate. Ie trickery and falsehoods. And for sure push things using coercion (whether physical as in past generations or fear mongering, pressure, withdrawal of services etc)

Rso

“Please supply a source. And if you manage to do that please explain how you can then say that just as Rashbi was an exception so is someone else who I choose.

That’s like saying that since Chazal explained that cooking on Shabbos is forbidden I extend that and say that cooling things down is also forbidden.”

I think you’re misunderstanding the idea especially by the example you cite. But al rishon rishon: regarding Rashbi it is written that he was so beyond his colleagues that they couldn’t understand the extent of his greatness, they couldn’t even relate to him at all. Classical source. Probably gemara. Don’t remember offhand sorry. Maybe someone else would.

Here’s one i do know offhand: Regarding the Rambam it is written “MiMoshe ad Moshe lo kam kMoshe”. Hey. How can you say that if yeridas hadoros is a halacha or an ironclad rule?

Well it obviously isn’t. It’s not ideal and not something we strive to do like halacha (as in your example of hilchos shabbos). Rather it is a statement of observation of fact.

Fact: the term Gaon today and Gaon in the Gra / Alter Rebbe’s times mean completely different things due to yeridas hadoros.

But no one told each generation to lower their standard of learning and greatness. We strive to be the best we can. Just in an overall generational sense, each generation is lower.

To TT:

Let me clarify something. I admire your insistence in being who you are, no two faced etc as a pnimi should. However I strongly disagree with what you say, and this is NOT because of a lack of political correctness (btw you have still not given me one example of where I perverted or twisted or misrepresented the Rebbe), it is because what is inside you and therefore what you are expressing- are wrong.

To explain:
You brought me a Sheine maase which, while not being politically correct, emphasises the teirkeit of Chassidus.

Now I have a (more well known) maase for you:

As children, the Raza was shorter than his younger brother the future Rebbe Rashab. Once he got annoyed, and pushed his younger brother into a pit. He then stood over the pit proudly pronouncing himself taller. The Rebbe Maharash, his father, called him in and proceeded to tell him that he could have made himself taller by standing on a chair. There is no need to push others down to promote yourself and it is not a good thing…

Now, I have learned Tanya, some of it Baal peh. In perek 12 if I’m not mistaken, on the last page, the Alter Rebbe tells us that if a bad thought enters your mind about another yid, even if you have a right to be upset (like Yosef with his brothers) you must immediately push it away bshtei yodayim and not dwell.on it as dwelling on it is an aveira.

I strive to live this way myself, as a chossid and turn negative thoughts about others into positivity by focusing on the good in them. Now of course if I think this way, kal vchomer my speech in general reflects that. Don’t get me wrong. I slip up sometimes and am not yet a beinoni. But I try. And my friends do the same.

Now do I know about the individuals you mention? Of course. Actually, regarding Rav shach, all I knew was that the Rebbe strongly disagreed with his words on abc. I didn’t know more until I came to this forum and heard people quoting different things in his name. I didn’t go asking all my lubavitch friends to fill me in as I didn’t want to delve in mud. I looked up a non partial factual covering of the story with no shmutz of epithets etc mixed in, just to educate myself on the topic.

The other individual came up when I learned about the history of tomchei tmimim in ww2. Other than that, I don’t think about either of them and I definitely don’t talk about them. This is the way of the Rebbe.

To be continued.

I see three of my posts entitled shluchim which addressed concerns of people here, and which I spent a while writing up etc have not been put through. I’m all for honest discussion if it’s honest. If some of my posts are not allowed through while others are in response to peoples requests, then it is impossible to have a fair open conversation as we have been on this thread, so I guess I won’t writeup any more responses until they are allowed through. Generally though I am impressed with the integrity here, of allowing all sides free reign to actually discuss the topics, and that’s why I submitted the coverting posts which should have been follow up, before waiting to see if the shluchim posts were allowed through. I hope this honesty continues

Approving your posts is not about having honest discussion. Not everything that is sent can be approved. Period. The fact that we take excessive amounts of time to sift through them, editing if possible instead of outright deleting should be something you are thankful for, not accusing. This particular “set” of posts is only being held back in it’s entirety due to consideration on our part for your time. We can easily hold back post 1 and send thru post 3 but have decided to see if they could remain in order. Your indignance is out of place.

OK thank you for your time

But thanks for responding 🙂

Np:

“You know that it is not unique to Tzaddikim from the Parsha in Chumash re: Navi Sheker. The point is that EVEN a navi sheker can affect miracles and know hidden things. One does not have to intentionally seek to use the s”a, one can be misled (and himself not even realize it). Now, I’m NOT saying that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was misled in this way. What I am saying is that since such abilities are not unique to Tzadikim they cannot be used as a criteria.

The above quote from the first Lubavitcher Rebbe does not contradict this at all. The fact that Hashem increases emuna in this world by revealing His abilities through the tzadikim and the miracles they do has nothing to do with what criteria ought to be used for accepting them as Tzadikim in the first place.”

Np by your reasoning, Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel would have never happened. We have a clear mitzva of listening to our chachamim which was applied then (source Rambam Sefer hamitzvos:)

If someone is known to you to be a tzadik, then you follow everything he says, EVEN IF he tells you to temporarily stop doing a mitzvah.

The only exception to this rule is if he tells you a mitzvah is permanently cancelled or if he tells you to serve another god cvs. But these are exceptions to the rule. The rule is as above.

Np
“Since we regular people have no way of knowing who can actually do this I don’t see how this can be a criteria.”

Like the Rambam I posted – those who are trusted as tzaddikim by us (by noting their behaviour etc) can be trusted to make these decisions as well.

Laskern:
“CS, Define to me what Chasiddus means? The chazal say איזהו חסיד המתחסד עם קונו who is a chosid who does right with his Creator, One who does לפנים משורת הדין one who does extra. King David says שמרה נפשי כי חסיד אני a chosid needs extra protection because he does more than required, so the border line becomes hazy and unclear. Also, כל הגדול מחבירו יצרו גדול ממנו the tzadik has a greater yetzer hara because as we mentioned he has a higher neshomo. Look at the mesilas yeshorim on shaar hachasidim.”

You mean chossid or chassidus? You are correct that the correct usage of the term chossid would be akin to the use of tzadik gamur, see Tanya perek 10.

However I meant it colloquially as it is used within Chabad in two ways. One is more like talmid, as in chossid of the Rebbe. But it also means someone who constantly strives to work on himself in Avodas Hashem. Not every lubavitcher would be called a chossid. A chossid we call someone who we respect for constantly working and growing etc or someone who has attained significant levels in Avodas Hashem.

Chassidus is what the Rebbeim taught (and some Rebbeim outside lubavitch as well as has been noted) based on pnimius HaTorah. That’s the short of it. For a longer definition of what Chassidus is let me know if you want me to expound.

As promised: (shluchim post 1)

OK I’ll get to the follow up and maybe others can help as well. But first, the post I promised iyh:

Sometime back (sorry too long to look for exact quote),
Rso, in the midst of all his complaints about lubavitch, said that he has been by shluchim on five continents and was very impressed by the work they do, and for sure that’s the Rebbe’s zechus, and he wishes Chabad would just stick to that instead of thinking of their Rebbe as the apex of all.

So I wanted to compliment him for admitting that as it didn’t help his case, but I also wanted to wait for the right moment to address it.

Others chimed in later on with the same idea saying Chabad should stick to mekareving not yet frum Yidden, but not go on shlichus to frum places.

I want to explain to you that ha bha talya (both are contingent on each other.)

To explain:

The Rebbe had a vision. A crazy vision. And the only reason why those shluchim are there for you in Thailand and Africa is because they bought into that vision. Otherwise they wouldn’t be there at all.

What was the vision?

When the Rebbe became Rebbe, he told us that our job is to make Geula happen. The Rebbe, being the Nassi of our generation (btw for those who were asking, see the book siach sod which documents the relationship of Gedoilei Yisrael with the Rebbe. Numerous quotes and stories etc.), saw it as his responsibility to make it happen by reaching as many yidden as possible and creating a teshuva movement (yidden should poshut keep Torah and mitzvos), and that Chassidus should be learned by everyone (as moshiach told the Baal Shem Tov was needed for him to come.)

This was the plan and the Rebbe sent out shluchim to both ends.

Tbc

Shluchim post 3 (final):

Now some of you have directly benefitted from shluchim and appreciate that, but didn’t give it much thought and this thread has been an eye opener (at your request remember.)

So the next time a shliach helps you out, or you see him representing yidden in the news etc. give it a good thought.

These shluchim are out there, many times in difficult situations and lack of regular frum amenities, solely because they have bought into the Rebbe’s vision of bringing moshiach with no Jew left behind. Ie due to the Rebbe’s ahavas yisrael for every Jew.

Think about the wonder you see before you:

No other group sends out their best to help other groups of yidden. Even more importantly, no other group sends out shluchim. And we all know why: because no one else wants to risk the achrayus of a young couple sent in the middle of nowhere lowering their standards or discarding Yiddishkeit altogether cvs.

Yet, by the same logic, the Rebbe’s plan should have been a disaster. 60% of shluchim should have become not frum cvs and the whole thing should have been doomed to begin with.

Yet here we have have today third and even fourth generation (children) shluchim who are as committed to Yiddishkeit as ever, and are in many cases, even more shtark than their peers, even the children.

And the greatest wonder of all: 2/3 of shluchim today have gone out AFTER gimmel tammuz, whereas there is still not a living Gadol from another kreiz who has taken on the achrayus to send shluchim.

Is it because lubavitchers are innately more solid with their Yiddishkeit than other yidden?

Even if chassidus provides extra strength to those that study it, there are other groups of chassidim and even not chassidim who study Chassidus, and yet those groups still don’t go on shlichus. It’s just shows who the Rebbe is.

Syag see my post above regarding ahavas yisrael