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The ???? goes through the correct way of being ???? different categories of children, each son relative to his intellectual and emotional standing. The ???? explains how to deal with the “Rashah” – the Wicked Son. Apparently, the Torahdike Hashkafah dictates to treat him in a way that seems contrary to what one would think.
If you would ask me (before I learnt the Haggadah), I would tell you to be accepting, to be warm, to try your utmost to be ???? the son. Kiruv is a wonderful and beautiful phenomenon, where experts in the field are successful with even the toughest cookies.
The Haggadah has a different approach. Be strong, be tough, be firm (AR). A sharp reaction is called for, where you must “blunt his teeth” (which I believe is intended to be understood metaphorically).
Does this go against the whole Kiruv technique? (I’m obviously not discussing Kiruv to those searching for truth; I’m also not talking about Kiruv of a ????? ?????, who would probably be considered a ????? ???? ?????. I’m talking about initiating with OTDs.)
And why be sharp? Surely a bit of warmth can take you a lot further than being sharp?
We are living in a weak generation where we always have to be soft and merciful etc., but this certainly has not been the way it would be in the pass, and is not ideal, but if we today conducted ourselves as in past generations, they simply would walk entirely off the Derech instead of being scared up by ethics.
Before delving into the intricacies of this debate, I would like to point out that even a cursory view of the various meforshim reveal numerous different interpretations of the way to treat the ‘Wicked Son’. These include many different interpretations of ‘blunt his teeth’, one of which I saw last night that took it to mean that we endeavour to excite his curiosity so that he will ask less scornfully, and be more receptive. This is just one of many examples of ways in which the entire chelek takes on an entirely different tone, in this instance meaning anything but being harsh. So whilst your query is still pertinent and a very interesting subject to look into, it’s worth reminding there’s more than one way to read it. So whilst there is plenty to talk about, assuming an haskafik standpoint is, at best difficult.
I’m really conflicted regarding this issue.
As Rabbi Wallerstein says, we don’t want to put kids in a situation where all they have to do is rebel and they’ll get a trip to Israel (all expenses paid), a new suit, and lots of warm and loving attention from adults that otherwise wouldn’t know they exist.
You know, I think he’s right about this. I speak as an atypical Bais Yaakov student- I’ve made some bad decisions in life, and therefore have relationships with amazing mentor type people. I see the jealousy on my good BY friends’ faces every time I get called out of class by my mechaneches, just to chat about things. The only way for anyone in school staff to take any interest in you is to get yourself a boyfriend, or wear a mini skirt.
I’ve seen girls surreptitiously pulling their skirts up every time this mechaneches passes them in the halls, hoping that she’ll notice them if they look like they’re going through something.
But maybe that’s an entirely different issue…
i saw a pshat, that it doesnt say beat him up rather “blunt his teeeth” take out the bite of his criticism annd tell him if he was there he wouldnt be redeemed but now that we have torah he could do teshuva (or something like that)
Today, many have taken “kiruv” too far to the extreme. You hear shocking stories of so-called kiruv workers violating Torah commandments all in the name of kiruv.
its interesting to note when the torah mentions the rasha it says a lashon of “yo’mroo” saying whereas by the tam it says “yishalcha” askd, in essence the rasha doesnt have a question hes making a statement
When the roman went to Hillel and asked that the Torah be taught on one foot, Hillel did not knock his teeth out, but rather treated him nicely.
Other examples of Hillel HaZaken showed similar reactions
ZD, the Roman wasn’t kofer b’ikar.
DY
I think there was a story of a jew who made a bet he could get Hillel angry and would go by his house all the time yelling where is Hillel and asking insane questions and Hillel still did not punch him and was nice to him
but you have to realize what might a rasha be doing at your seder
no one is saying you shouldn’t love him however you have to show your other children that his mehalach isnt correct, and probably the reason he’s there at all is to sway the other children towards his views
ZD, do you think Hillel and the Baal Haggadah have a machlokes? I don’t see that.
yekke,
sorry i didn’t read your post
Igros Moshe Yoreh Deiah 3:76:
?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?”? ???? ???”? ??”? ????? ???”? ??? ?????? ????”?
???? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???”? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ???????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???”? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??”? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ???? ?????? ????????? ?? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ????”? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???”? ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ???????
??? ??? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ???, ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ????”? ??”? ????? ?? ????? ????? ?????? ??”? ????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???”? ???????? ??????? ???????? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???”? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ??”? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???????? ???
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yekke2:
The problem with basing an approach to chinuch on a passage from the haggada is that the passage is rather vague and can be interpreted to justify almost any chinuch methodology (depending on how creative you are). I quoted R’ Moshe to demonstrate that there are no klalim.
My personal pshat in the haggada is that it’s not four sons; it’s four parents. Chacham, Rasha, Tam, She’aino Yodeiah Lishol, are how the child responds to each type of parent. If you make the Torah exciting and intellectually stimulating then your kid will ask …?? ????? and you can answer him ?????? ??? – you hock through the sugya with him. If you portray the Torah as a burden then your kid will rebel and complain about the burden (?? ?????? ???? ???). As R’ Moshe writes in Yoreh Deiah 3:71:
???? ????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?”? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?”? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ?
If you don’t provide the intellectual stimulation, nor make it seem like a burden, your kid will just be simple – …?? ???. (Perhaps the response of …????? ?? is to infuse some excitement.) And if you are not actively involved in your kid’s life, he will be indifferent, and not care. To that we tell you ?? ??? ?? – get involved in his life and education.
Interestingly, this is a neat parallel to the four styles of parenting in psychology: authoritative, authoritarian, permissive, and uninvolved.
the shem mi’shmuel has a yesod that pesach night is b’chinas geyrus, i.e. rededicating your connection to HAshem. with this he explains why chomez is only assur on pesach, and not the whole year, (since we know that chomez represents the yezer hara etc.). he says that since we are becoming “geyrim” on peysach we need our foundations to be purer than the we would the rest of the year.
with this yesod we can also answer this question. normally, we would draw in the rasha, and try to be mekarev him. but on the seder night we need our foundations to be pure, and we cant stand even a bit of his kefira, so we knock out his teeth and shut him down.
The haggadah is talking about a missionary. First save what you have, them fix what’s broken. Your “ben rashah” today has nothing to do with believing in Hashem or not. His problem is emotional pain, so that’s what contemporary gedolim tell us to work on. The concept of a maskil is almost non existent in our generation. People in kiruv will say the same thing. People don’t become religious because they rationally decided that there must be a Hashem. They do it because they are looking for happiness.
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