Another glorious nonsensical back and forth between Health and Ubiquitin

Ubiquitin,

1. You need a remedial reading course. My point was that free enterprise lowered the prices.

2. You cannot. In a free market competitors would come and undersell you and you would be forced to lower your prices.

3.a. If there were no pizza the question would also not start. There is a heter iska and I could use it although I might not.
b. Yes. I may so long as I pay taxes and do not block your store. See Hasagat Gevul: Economic Competition in Jewish Law by Rabbi Chaim Jachter.

4. On the contrary. Crony capitalism is regulation for the benefit of the cronies.

Ubiq -“I know, I know for 75 zillion dollars you will elaborate what “treatment” you are referring to.”

That’s your mistake – for 2 million I’ll give you my SCOTUS case.
The reason I didn’t elaborate on the differences between US care and elsewhere is because it’s too broad!
But I’ll give you an example – a relative of mine had lymphoma of the lungs. All they treated with is steroids.
Not the best treatment!

From an article posted on NIH:
“Nevertheless, the Italian Society of Hematology produced clinical practice-guidelines for the management of these rare tumors. In patients with MALT or non-MALT primary lung NHL, the panel of expert recommended for first-line therapy, combination regimens with anthracycline-based chemotherapy or monotherapy in association or not with rituximab.
In addition, for patients with MALT primary lung NHL surgical resection can be the treatment of choice in localized tumors if complete resection can be achieved.
Radiotherapy is to be reserved for patients with a unique, small lesion and observation only can be an alternative in an asymptomatic patient with localized disease.”

Ubitquin,

2. If there would be a coercive monopoly on water you would be correct(. However, in a free market for water competition would do the job. The latter is far preferable as the former causes shortages and black markets.

3.
a. I have stated before that hasagat gevul is related to property rights. Free enterprise also recognizes that one may not steal or commit fraud. However, the halachic definition of property is sometimes different than the American definition.
b. The article also brings Rav Soloveichik, the Beit Efraim (C.M. 26) and the Tel Aviv Beit Din (Piskei Din Rabbaniyim 4:9-32) as disagreeing. Kim li like them. Moreover, the article ends with the Aruch HaShulchan’s statement (C.M. 15:6) that present all cases must be presented to dayanim who are Torah scholars and who understand the intricacies of business. The Gra, in fact, states that a dayan must have wide secular knowledge in order to pasken correctly. Rav Kook also said that a bet din that decides labor disputes must have dayanim who are knowledgeable in Economics.

Pure free market capitalism is something that never existed. Much of what the government does, even if it’s libertarianish, violates that.

2. Just so we are clear, Are you arguing on the shulchan aruch?
3. Lol! So even among the few who hold that there is never an issur hasagus gevul (Im not familiar with all the sources most still hold there is) STILL views it as a “sign of piety” to avoid competition. I.e. an ideal that pious people should strive towards is to not compete?
Really thats your argument?

Also earlier I mentioned the Author’s introduction “These cases often arouse much controversy, especially since the Halachah is sometimes at odds with American society’s tendency to favor unrestricted competition.”

Do you disagree with his assessment?

Ubiq -“At any rate “treatment” isnt necessarily a sign of better healthcare. Survival rates in US are pretty similar to Europe (~70% at 5 years)”

You didn’t read my post from the page before!
Treatment is more of an indication than survival rate when it comes to better healthcare!
From previous:
“But he’s wrong why they live longer!
It’s because of nutrition & exercise. The US has the best medical care, in spite of the DemonCrats trying to destroy it.”

Ubiq -“you say that other countries live longer because “nutrition and excercse” even if so, that is part of “healthcare” too”

Your attempt to be right, no matter what, is mind-boggling!
My posts are applicable to the topic.
It could be you just post -whatever?!?
From the OP:
“If one believes that government has the moral obligation to provide all its citizenry the universal right to healthcare,”
That difference is Not applicable to gov. per se!

Ubitquin,

2. I urge you to take a remedial reading course. I pointed out that you distorted the SA by truncating the halacha. It explicitly says that only foods necessary for life have a profit limit. I pointed out that today everything has substitutes and many people do not eat bread during weekdays. Some people never drink wine, which is also on the SA’s list. I also pointed out that free competition would keep prices down. The officers to whom the SA refers could be prosecutors who fight coercive monopolies.

3. Be pious with your own money, not with others’. When Avraham Avinu refused to take even a shoelace he also insisted that his soldiers receive their shares.

4. I do not believe that there is a view to favor unrestricted competition in America. Look at all the rent-seeking licensing laws. LA even has one for flower arrangers (it is being fought in the courts).

2.
” I urge you to take a remedial reading course.”
Pot meet kettle, in the past week alone so far you have misread a letter printed in the voice of lakewood, a k innumerbale posters comments, and a article on hasagas gevul thatYOU cited.

“I pointed out that you distorted the SA by truncating the halacha”
Yet another example of your poor reading
Here is how I cited the halacha “חַיָּבִים בֵּית דִּין לְהַעֲמִיד מְמֻנִּים עַל הַשְּׁעָרִים שֶׁלֹּא יַרְוִיחַ כָּל אֶחָד מַה שֶּׁיִּרְצֶה, שֶׁאֵין לוֹ לָאָדָם לְהַרְוִיחַ בַּדְּבָרִים שֶׁיֵּשׁ בָּהֶם חַיֵּי נֶפֶשׁ Choshen mishpat 231:20”
you then claimed I truncated it “You truncated the halacha in the SA. It says “necessary for life”” which of course I wrote. (“שֶׁיֵּשׁ בָּהֶם חַיֵּי נֶפֶשׁ”)
At any rate Water is necessary for life, so if you maintain that IT doesnt apply to water you are arguing on the shulchan aruch.

“I pointed out that today everything has substitutes ”
Yes you pointed this out but
a. IT simply isnt true. (as I told you)
and more importantly
b. It still doesnt dispute my main point that the Torah opposes pure free market capitalism, as it puts limits on profiteering on (at the minimum) things that are necessary for life .

” I also pointed out that free competition would keep prices down. ”
Yes you did, though it isnt relevent to our discussion,. We arent discussing which system is better. Rathter what the Torah supports and opposes

3. “Be pious with your own money, not with others’”
Mazel tov.
the source you cite says that people should avoid competing with their neighbor even if not assur. One of the fundementals of capitalism is that competition benefits society.

4.
There isnt, because the US isnt a pure free market system whether (though not nearly to the extent the toah does) see RY’s comment above.
Though I cant help but notice that you havent actually answered my question.
Here it is again
“Also earlier I mentioned the Author’s introduction “These cases often arouse much controversy, especially since the Halachah is sometimes at odds with American society’s tendency to favor unrestricted competition.”

Do you disagree with his assessment?”

Happened to glance in to this thread, did not really follow most of the back and forth. Yet I believe that someone compared our healthcare system here in the USA vs other government run health care systems.

If one were to compare the standard of care, I am sure that there wouldn’t be much of a difference between our healthcare system and those of government run systems. Yet the countries that have government run health care systems do not really let the individual navigate through the health care system, nor is the individual entitled to decide which course of treatment they should take. all is decided by the government (unless one is willing to pay cash).

The average or maximum wait time for some basic procedures is weeks or even months (these can be found on the Canadian and UK Government websites) , while over here the patient usually is able to get an MRI and surgical consult within days, in those places the patient usually waits a few months for an appointment.

Ubiq -“You think charging 2 million dollars for a fake SCOTUS case is honest?”

Stop misrepresenting my posts! I’d only take the money if I’m proven wrong.
If you’re so sure of yourself, put your money where your mouth is!

“Id have nothing to gain either. I love real information, alternative sCOTUS cases, not as much. and besides sadly I dont have 2 million dollars”

Of course you’d have what to gain – you could tell e/o that I’m the liar here, not you!
You could sell your house – I’m sure you could get at least 2 grand for it.

The truth is – you’re scared! And I frankly don’t blame you, because my case went to the US Supreme Court.
I would have given it for free, but your attitude till this day is unacceptable to me – eg. -“when wrong Ive admitted.”
I grew up out-of-town – so manipulation is not from my bag of tricks!
When I moved to Lakewood, many moons ago, I’ve found manipulation & lying are not taboo for many people!

(Im not sure wh y the link formatted funny it has nothing to do with lakewwod it was to this post on that thread
where yo usaid to me “You admitted that you can be wrong”)

“Another lie! Why do you continue to lie?”

This one is easy to prove

You said “you’d have nothing to lose by putting the money with a third party.”
I replied “Id have nothing to gain either”
To which you said “Of course you’d have what to gain – you could tell e/o that I’m the liar here, not you!”

SO as I said, aside from it being aparent from your posts that you lie.
It isnt worth sraising 2 million dollars just to prove someone else a liar. it just isnt important to me, i dont consider that a “gain” although you do, since you said it is what I would gain.
Or as I had put it “it troubles me to think that in your mind being able to tell people someone else is a liar is worth money at all let alone 2 million dollars”
🙂

2scents

“I believe that the doctors, not the patients decide on what is an emergent procedure”

yes that is correct. shouldnt it be that way?

“once one is in the system they have to wait their turn.”
YEs if not emergent there is a delay. (again though les of a delay than those in the US without insurance) However this is to save costs.
For example Canada has less MRI machines than the the US (in 2005 5 per million people in Canada compard to 20 in the US. ) Obviously this helps keep costs down since not as many machines need to be maintained.
the flip side is fro (non-emergent ) MRI’s there is a delay.
If avoiding delay is so important then we can spend more and still have a single payer sytem the two arent mutually exclusive. Canada spends half of what we do and has better outcomes.
We can have a single payer system, spend more than Canada does to avoid dreaded delays for non-essential tests and likely still insure everybody at less the cost than we have today.

“I was involved and familiar with a few cases of which the patients were flown to the US from the UK for more advanced life saving treatments.”
Likewise, I was alos involved with the revers cases. See NYT article “The Growing Popularity of Having Surgery Overseas” 8/6/13

“Yet the cases that I had personal involvement were those that came to the US for care that was not available to them at the time in the UK and Canada.”

Thus giving you a biased sample. I have been involved in those cases, as well as cases in the reverse .
I am not saying the US system is all bad (nor did I even say it wasnt the best, I was just challenging Health to elaborate best in what way. If you define “best healthcare” as shorter wait times I grant the US has better healthcare than Canada for non-essential treatment. Again though A single payer sytem does not have to equal longer wait times, as mentioned previously. The US has a single payer system for those over 65. I am not aware of Longer wait times for them to be seen.