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This is for Goldenpupik et al, per the OT conversation on the other thread HERE.
Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 15:20): And thus our Sages have commanded that the woman honor her husband to an extreme degree and the fear of him should be on her and she should do all her deeds according to what he says and he should be in her eyes as a ruler or king. She should orient her activities according to that which he desires and stay away from that which he hates. This is the manner of the daughters of Israel and the children of Israel who are holy and pure in their marriages. In this way the community will be pleasant and praiseworthy.
It would be nice if you’d also mention the Rambam in the Halacha just prior to the one you quoted:
??? ??? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????. ??? ?? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ?????. ??? ???? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????.
And the Sages also commanded that a person honor his wife more than himself, and love her like himself. And if he has a lot of money, he must add in her favor according to the money. And he should not place upon her excessive fear, and his words with her should be with patience; he shouldn’t act depressed or angry.
Shlishi:
Your post was rather irritating to me. I assume you provided accurate translations of the Rambam and the Menoras Hamaor. I could, if I chose, supplment your post with several more references that sound much as these do. The part about your selections is that the context is sorely lacking. I call this a serious, intentional error of omission, which is more in line with aggression, albeit passive.
Missing here is the other side of the story – the obligations a man has to his wife. Let’s try a basic one on for size: ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????. The respect and affection from a huband to the wife are expected to be substantial. It is in the context of this that the words of the Rambam and the Menoras Hamaor ring not just true and accurate, but applicable. One cannot demand any of the subjugating aspects of marriage of a wife who is treated like garbage. A relationship that contains no trust will NOT permit any of this. The husband that demands this is a tyrant, and deserves the absence of respect he has earned. I do not justify anyone committing acts of disrespect. But I cannot fault a victim or recipient of such treatment by the other spouse for failing or falling short in their respect of the abusive spouse.
I hope that other commenters will ring in with the quotes that describe the Torah demanded environment of the marital relationship where there is mutual respect, love, affection, and the togetherness that lends meaning to the posuk of ???? ???? ???.
“A virtuous wife is a crown to her husband.” Ever notice how the crown is higher than the person wearing it! Isn’t that odd?!
I also wonder why there is no composition for an “Ish chayil” (only “Aishes chayil”)- you would think…?
Also the order of the breiya in breishis starts from the lowest forms – domem(earth, water etc.), tzomeach (vegetation), chai (animals), medaber (man)…and then woman! Woman was the “sof ma’aseh – b’machshava t’chilah”!
A woman says a brocha, “she’asani k’ritzono” because Odam was created from earth, so his tzura (form) was limited by the chomer (Material) and therefore could not be mamesh “k’ritzono”. However, Chava was created from no earthly chomer, her celestial chomer was built around the rib, so her tzura was not limited to any chomer and made completely k’ritzono!
Having said that, I need to prepare supper for my husband – he is king in my house (and I am his queen)! He is my Rabbi Akiva and I am his Rochel!
Ko somar l’bais yaakov, v’tagid l’bnei yisroel – the women were given the Torah first!
fully agree with “the little i know.”
by the way hundreds of gedoilim were makpid on every rambam; and they still treated their wives really well.
Goldenpupik,
Aishes Chayil was NOT written for/about each of our wifes!!!!
Goldenpupik: That’s a cute point from the order of the B’riyah, but I think that your last paragraph is borderline Apikorsus. You should be very, very careful with that P’shat.
Wow, so many quotes
This thread is heading in a direction of those preaching male dominance and frank chauvinism, with retorts that draw attention to the virtuosity that is granted to the female. My earlier comment is that the Torah is not chauvinistic at all. Hashem simply delegated certain roles to the male and others to the female, and made their creation such that they complement and complete each other. Once a marriage is turned into one of dominance and servitude, it ceases to be a marriage, and deteriorates into that of master and slave. This is not only opposite of Torah goals, but the individuals involved will lead lives of misery. There is nothing spiritual in that relationship.
If the comments move into the debate about the dominance stuff, I will respectfully ask the moderator to close the thread and even remove it. It would not be an educated discussion with a purpose other than to battle for victory on a blog. Someone must set some higher goals in their life than to stoop to that level.
Golden – whatever helps you sleep at night….
For an alternate view to those quoted so far, google Rabbi Aharon Licthenstein and marriage.
GoldenPupik – I take back what I said in your other thread about you learning. It seems to me from all of your comments that I’ve read that you are fooling yourself if you think you are learning just to help your husband and your relationship. I’m getting VERY strong feminist vibes from you. I hope you don’t take this as an insult. I’m just trying to help you get in touch with yourself by giving you an unbiased opinion. Someone who deep down feels inferior always needs to look for reasons why they are superior, while those who are comfortable being who they are do not bother with such things. I’m not a psychologist, but your statements speak volumes.
A bas Yisroel should accept that her place is not in the beis medrash. It’s not because a woman is lesser, but because a woman has a different role to play than a man. You should be careful lest your children suffer of gender role confusion. Please don’t be offended by my comment, I’m bring 100% serious, and I’m praying that you’re just trolling as some have suggested.
shlishi: are you the husband or the wife?
There is a fascinating commentary from the Gr”a on Mishlei (27:27). He distinguishes between a ??? and a ????. The ??? is someone who is rightfully equal to his subjects, but that the subjects accepted his role as king. They subjugate themselves to him. The ???? is someone who pushes himself into a position to rule over others, by force or pressure. It is worth noting that many of the references that address the male dominance position refer to the husband as ???, NOT ????. The explanation seems obvious. It is the wife that subjugates herself to the direction of the husband, not the process of the husband oppressing his wife to be the superior.
We might further recognize the line we recite in Maariv, ??????? ????? ???? ?????, where we refer to the ????? as something we willingly accept upon ourselves. As soon as the subjects no longer subscribe to their subject role, the ??? ceases to be a ???. I bet the choice of words in all of the above references is intentional.
shlishi:
You appear to support an abusive/dominant relationship as consistent with a Torah based marriage. That, my friend, is a grave distortion, one that should make you shiver. There is NOTHING in Torah that excuses abuse, whether in the forms of actions (verbal, sexual, physical, etc.) or in the nature of the relationship. I consider the use of Torah sources to push such an agenda ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????. It is blasphemous to convert the Torah that stands for Shalom into a tool to excuse and justify this abusive form of dominance.
There are particular roles for husbands and wives, and there are vast ranges of halachos based on this. Degrading a wife, subjugating her, making demands on her as one might do on a slave, have no place in a Jewish marriage. No reader should get the idea that such behaviors and attitudes are supported by the various references you provided.
????? ???? ???? ??? ???????? ????.
Rambam (Hilchos Ishus 15:20): And thus our Sages have commanded that the woman honor her husband to an extreme degree and the fear of him should be on her and she should do all her deeds according to what he says and he should be in her eyes as a ruler or king.
I don’t run my marriage in this fashion. Frankly, I suspect that there are very few in this day and age who actually do.
I have been married over 20 years and, with thanks to HKBH, have a wonderful marriage. It’s a marriage of partnership and of equals. I don’t dominate her (and I certainly don’t “put the fear” of me upon her. I don’t set myself up as her “king,” “ruler,” or “master.” We have a marriage where we respect each other’s opinions. We also have a marriage where one person does not make unilateral decisions without the other. If we disagree on a subject, we work it out until we come to an agreeable compromise.
I’m not saying that everyone’s marriage has to be as mine is. Heck, if ruling over your wife as a master works for the both of you, go right ahead. But it annoys me when posters decide that they have to rule everyone else’s marriage and imply that ALL marriages have to fit the model of a place and time that was VERY different from modern times and that that is the ONLY (proper) way to run a marriage. Culture (and even Jewish culture) has changed over time and with those changes come changes of what each partner expects out of a marriage.
After more than 20 years, Eeees and I are comfortable in our relationship. For us to change our marriage as the OP suggests would be to destroy the marriage entirely… as I suspect it would destroy most Jewish marriages that exist today.
The Wolf
One could say there are many shades of grey in a relationship. Sometimes the grey is more black, towards being dominant/tyrannical. Other times, it is more white, towards making the deciding choice after all input is had. Just because someone is in a grey area does not make him/her abusive.
To explain, there is a grey line between the husband being the king and being abusive, just like a king can become a tyrant. Having the final say does not mean that one side will not convince the decider what the proper the direction is. Communication is key.
As Chazal say: “Zoche Nasis Ozer, Lo Zacah, Nasis K’Negdo”. If one is Zoche & wise, their wife becomes their support. If not, she becomes an adversary. A supportive relationship is not abusive.
Rebbetzin G, true, but there is the construct “ben-chayil”
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