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There is an increasingly common trend reaching the Frum communities to try fit the Torah to ones comfort zone rather than adapt your understanding of right and wrong to the Torah.
?????? ???????? ???? ???? – The Torah predates the world we live in, the society we live in, and by extension, our moral compass. If the Torah dictates that a murderer receives capital punishment for his wrongdoing, then no G-d fearing Jew should have any compunctions in fulfilling the Will of G-d. It matters not whether you ‘feel’ it is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’.
Just because the Hashkafas HaTorah doesn’t suit you, or doesn’t fit with your egalitarian ideas, it doesn’t mean you can change it. So if you respond with a ‘moral argument’ against a statement quoted from Chaza”l, you have lost the argument.
<Inspired by a Recently Closed Thread>
Yekke2, yes, but sometimes moral judgement could and should help interpret properly divrei Torah and Chazal. More on this later.
Or maybe not, depending on your point
if that is what you walked away with then i want to publicly state that that is not at all what i was supporting. I agree with your above post and am pained by the shift that i too have seen.
i walked away with a very different message and that was about misusing the words and dictates of Chazal as a cover for elitism (actually any negative behavior) and racism that IS NOT dictated by them, spurring behaviors that our gedolim and Torah Giants never practiced or condoned.
We are given the instruction not to give gifts to non-Jews for various reasons. if everyone at the table is a yid except one co-worker and i bring gifts and distribute them to all the other workers at the same table and then turn to the other and say, “Sorry, i don’t give things to your kind” is Chazal permitting/encouraging/requesting that WHOLE scenerio? Or did I just chose on my own to carry out the ways of Chazal in that manner. And if someone objects to the way I chose to carry it out, are you saying that they are trying to put feelings over Torah morals?
Mod. and others, I meant something along Syag’s lines. When interpreting divrei Chazal and putting them together there can be different interpretations and/or how far and in which way you take things. Reb Yisroel Salanter said that someone who has bad middos is a gangster, and someone with bad middos who has the Torah is a gangster with a gun! What he meant was (in my understanding) that if someone who has bad middos will interpet things in a wrong way which either hurt people (where the Torah did not mean to) or allow things which should not be muttar etc.
Btw, dear Yekke2, the problem you pointed out exists not only by the left-leaning people, it exists also by the right-leaning ones – just, obviously, in other areas or in other ways.
thank you for your last post, for that was my point. im not really sure what made you think the things in the post above that were mine.
I am not wanting a heter to do something not prescribed. I try not to use heterim in general and say so when i ask shailos. i was speaking on the fault in the attitude of the doer, not foulting what the Torah wants ch”v. What the Torah wants is unwavering regardless of how it makes you feel, but there are those who think that gives free reign to impliment it in ANY fashion even if devoid of the compassion that Chazal DO expect from us.
My example about the table is that I would NOT say to find a way to give the non-jew, and i would NOT chose to not give. But I wouldn’t give it out at THAT table in THAT way with THAT delivery and tell people who disaprove that they are disagreeing with Torah. Some posters would consider that delivery just what Chazal ordered, and while you sound like you wouldn’t, it seems you are misinterpreting the distate of the attributing the behavior to Chazal, as a distate with making people feel bad even when Halachically prescribed.
Do you see what i am saying?
Syag, heteirim are not bad if they are valid.
yes, but that is somewhat beside the point so I didn’t elaborate. I was just trying to answer to the idea of getting a heter for something to prevent making people feel bad even.
Yekke’s got my full vote here.
Do I disagree with any of it? I thought I said I didn’t. I disagreed with you attributing any of those thoughts to me in the places where you said, “you would probably” etc
I will try to elaborate but I think it may be too subtle (though I never would have believed so) –
In the table example with the presents. I was describing that scenario as “wrong” (loosely put). Im hearing from your response that you thought i called it wrong because people will feel bad from it and we shouldn’t hurt people’s feelings even if the Torah dictates something.
I was saying that what was wrong was thinking that because we cannot give him a gift, it makes room for us to carry out that mitzvah in ANY WAY we see fit. If we want to do it in the way i described above, well that’s just 100% fine because the Torah said not to give him gifts.
My argument has two important steps –
1. is about taking a halacha and being true to it but carrying it out in ways that are NOT prescribed/condoned by halacha, even lichatchila (the table scenario)
2. when someone speaks out against THAT SPECIFIC aspect of the behavior mentioned in #1, people accuse them of not accepting the halacha and heirarchy, when really they are ONLY objecting to the disgusting display of poor middos and ahavas habrios, not the halacha.
There are those who DO indeed want to make the halachos ‘feel’ better and they are WRONG! But they are two very different thoughts.
I fully agree with the sentiments expressed in the OP. Too often people shoehorn their preconceived notions and ideals into the words of the Torah and Chazal, instead of approaching them with a blank slate and an earnest eagerness to know what the Torah and Chazal really want from us.
Or, in the words of Justice Antoin Scalia:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/quotes-2#post-608956
Intellectual honesty goes a long way towards preventing the distortion and perversion of text in order to support preconceived notions.
(Disclaimer: Lest this post be misinterpreted as an attack on anyone or anything, I hereby declare that this comment is only referring to the narrow point raised in the OP, and not to any other topic or persons; please do not misconstrue it as such.)
“besides for the bad middos displayed? “
??? need there be more?
(tell me if Im explaining the right thing)
A. if you follow Torah and someone gets hurt (as in the hand shaking scenario) that is too bad because there was no other way to handle it. Halacha is the priority, not how the man will feel.
B. If you follow Torah and someone gets hurt but it’s because of the way you chose to observe the halacha, and not because of the halachas inherent dictates, (the bad middos display at the table), then it isn’t okay becuase the Torah could have been observed just as strictly without the poor middos.
Now imagine B has already ocurred:
You have some people saying that the bad middos are not bad middos at all because they were a part of observing the mitzvah.
you have other people who are saying that it was a gross display of bad middos EVEN THOUGH it was obligatory to not give the presents to the non-jew. These people are being mistaken for those who say that we shouldn’t make goyim (or anyone) feel bad ever regardless of halacha.
The quest for proper middos when observing halacha is often mistaken by some as a quest for kinder halachos or ‘feel good’ halachos, and that isnt always the case. I thought you were doing that.
I take issue with some of the above nekudos.
Poskim have dealt with a lot of these issues. If you look at many teshuvos, you’d understand that these were dealt with already.
Examples- shaking hands in the context of business meetings is mutar, because it’s not k’derech chiba. Chazon Ish disagrees, I believe, but most other poskim allow shaking hands in a business setting.
Many of the halachos that pertain to our interactions with non-Jews operate according to a legal mechanism of utility/reciprocity. Darkei shalom is a very profound thing.
Skin color, who your parents are, your religious upbringing…these are all things beyond ones control.
Kavod habriyos is very powerful in halacha. We say that causing someone emotional pain to the extent that their face becomes white is akin to murdering him. Though ironically, in such a case, Joseph then might consider the person marriage material- when their face turns white.
Rav Moshe says in three, separate, strongly worded psakim that shaking hands with women in business is clearly assur.
You guys are all shkutzim and apikorsim, and when moshiach comes we’re gonna laugh so hard at you.
“If the Torah dictates that a murderer receives capital punishment for his wrongdoing, then no G-d fearing Jew should have any compunctions in fulfilling the Will of G-d.”
So you have no problem with the courts of the United States administering death penalties for petty theft?
Charlie,
“So you have no problem with the courts of the United States administering death penalties for petty theft?”
And this query of yours proves that you do not believe the Torah to be the ultimate morality.
I believe there is a term for people who feel that way. Some proudly call themselves open orthodox, but many use a different synonymous term. Think of the the philosopher whose saying was “eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may die”.
not quite sure we are on the same page but probably in a similar book.
Yes, I also noticed that the focused switched to the halachos and that is what i figured would happen. Its right back to the drawing board, one defending the need to be kind despite halacha, and one defending the need not to be concerned about being kind because of the halacha.
yekke2:
I knew this would happen. This thread would become one arguing the not-relevant-to-the-thread various controversial halachas used in the examples rather than focusing on the thread.
+1. People get sidetracked very easily.
SL:
Its right back to the drawing board, one defending the need to be kind despite halacha, and one defending the need not to be concerned about being kind because of the halacha.
Funny thing is, I don’t think most people have any truly significant difference of opinions. Most people here do believe in unquestioning observance of the Halacha, and most people here do believe in doing things nicely even when they are mandated by Halacha.
mw – yes, possibly. but i am sure that those who advocate for not being nice are doing so believing they are right, and they are the more vocal and visible ones and set a very bad example for halachik Judaism.
Like the story of Rabbi Silver in the DP camps. when a man gave up religion because he saw someone charging a days ration of bread for the use of his siddur. Rabbi Silver told him he should have looked at the line of people volunteering to do so instead. It is human nature to see the badly behaved and think them representative of the whole. which is wrong. But by the same token, people representing the learned *should* know better, shouldn’t they? Even those who hate us are expecting more from our behavior.
You are assuming the person in the presents-at-the-table scenario isn’t fully believing that this extra shtuch to the non-Jew is part of fulfilling the mitzvah. And that is the sole reason that when you call him on it, he believes you are denying the truth of the mitzvah itself.
No one, no one at all, would approve of the presents-at-the-table scenario as presented above.
Many times there are many shitas on a particular case.
if only
“The problems begin when cognitive dissonance causes rationalization, and people begin justifying their behaviour to be righteous and fool themselves into believing that this is unquestioning observance. “
exactly! yes!
although that boyfriend example is ridiculous because that person is trying to cover something he knows he wishes wasn’t true. A better example is someone who is not qualified, tactlessly giving tochacha inappropriately, possibly doing more harm than good.
(was your omission of what happens here in the CR deliberate or cognitive dissonance?)
SL:
i am sure that those who advocate for not being nice are doing so believing they are right
As do those who advocate compromising on Halacha in the name of being nice. But then gain, everyone believes they are doing what is right (although many only come o this belief after already deciding what to do, as yekke2 pointed out). As the famous saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
But do you see anybody here advocating for not being nice?
yekke2:
MW – I don’t think its that people get sidetracked easily; people enjoy diverting the topic onto controversial topics they feel strongly about.
Touche.
The problems begin when cognitive dissonance causes rationalization, and people begin justifying their behaviour to be righteous
+1.
SL:
exactly! yes!
So can we all agree that the root cause of these various problems is not lack of appreciation of the importance of adherence to Halacha or of treating people correctly, but of just not thinking things through?
“So can we all agree that the root cause of these various problems is not lack of appreciation of the importance of adherence to Halacha or of treating people correctly, but of just not thinking things through? “
no, i dont think so at all. i think it is born of the intrinsic need to feed the ego/compensate for insecurities.
I would like to request leave this conversation without being accused of walking out. I have noticed both you and yekke, at least twice, twisting the points around a bit in the fashion of – yes, blue is correct, so we are both agreeing with blue and red, lovely – and I don’t.
I cannot decide if this is deliberate (or denial?) but i try to stick to a “policy” that if I can’t make my point understood after a few tries, it is best to call it a draw.
SL:
I have noticed both you and yekke, at least twice, twisting the points around a bit in the fashion of – yes, blue is correct, so we are both agreeing with blue and red, lovely – and I don’t.
I don’t think it was quite like that – we were asking you *if* you agree that _________, not just assuming that you did.
I would like to request leave this conversation without being accused of walking out… i try to stick to a “policy” that if I can’t make my point understood after a few tries, it is best to call it a draw.
Fair enough – I hereby do not accuse you of walking out 😉
“Rav Moshe says in three, separate, strongly worded psakim that shaking hands with women in business is clearly assur.”
Joseph- that is false. Rav Moshe is very ambiguous and seems to go back and forth in his Teshuvos. Rav Dovid Feinstein has said on many occasions that Rav Moshe held handshaking was muttar but didn’t write in a teshuva because he didnt want to be attacked for another Kula. (he was already attacked for many others).
Yosi7:
Rav Dovid Feinstein has said on many occasions that Rav Moshe held handshaking was muttar but didn’t write in a teshuva because he didnt want to be attacked for another Kula. (he was already attacked for many others).
I’m going to have to see a source for that before I even consider believing it. R’ Moshe was known for stating what he believed to be the truth regardless of what other people might think of his position or of him personally.
Quite clear and unambiguously assur according to Rav Moshe, as he’s written in multiple published Teshuvos:
Igros Moshe OC I 113 page 177
“To offer one’s hand to a woman in the manner of those greeting others upon meeting. It is pashut that it is prohibited even for an unmarried woman since they are niddah and surely it is prohibited for a married woman”.
Igros Moshe EH IV 32.9 page 76
“To offer one’s hand to a woman in the manner of those greeting others upon meeting. It is definitely pashut that it is prohibited as I have written OC I 113. That is because one needs to be concerned for the issue
of derech chibah and taavah.
It is unusual for Rav Moshe to write in his teshuva, as he did here, that “It is definitely pashut that it is prohibited.” During Rav Moshe’s lifetime the modern attacked him for being an extremist. After his passing they’ve attempted to reinterpret history and claim Rav Moshe ruled the exact opposite of what he’s written.
Joseph: You correctly quote R’ Moshe. However, you incorrectly made up that he doesn’t usually say things are “Pashut”. That is his style.
Yosi7,
Joseph quoted Reb Moshe teshuvos forbidding shaking a woman’s hand. I’m curious to see when you will be apologizing to him for accusing him of falsehood?
Joseph- 1) Thank you for quoting. Is there a third Teshuva? You said their were 3 teshuvos. 2) “During Rav Moshe’s lifetime the modern attacked him for being an extremist. After his passing they’ve attempted to reinterpret history and claim Rav Moshe ruled the exact opposite of what he’s written.” Are you saying that Rav Dovid Feinstein is attempting to reinterpret history and saying the opposite of what Rav Moshe said? I have heard it from many reliable sources that this is what Rav Dovid Feinstein said (that really his father held it was muttar) including Rav Herschel Shachter. I’m not saying that it is muttar (many poskim Assured including the Chazon Ish) but I just speaking about daas Rav Moshe on the question.
Rav Dovid never said its muttar and Rav Dovid never said Rav Moshe said its muttar. Au contraire. Rav Moshe has been clear about this topic, as you see in the direct verbatim quotes from him above, and so is Rav Dovid in concurrence with Rav Moshe.
Yosi. Wait. I must be very dense today.
It appears to me you are saying essentially:
I have reliable sources that tell me they heard directly from Rav Moshe’s son that Rav Moshe actually held directly opposite to how he poskened in his seforim. That he wrote these false psakim so that he wouldn’t be criticized.
And that you believe your reliable sources that this is (or is even remotely possible)the truth.
Are you saying this??
Yes, very important. I’m surprised Rav Moshe didn’t think of this.
That’s why I shake hands with women. In certain situations I have no choice but to hug them also.
I also frequently eat at my goyish neighbor’s house. I don’t want them to think I’m some kind of nut case. Even worse they might be insulted. And we all know that is against The Torah!
I suppose I could figure out some way to explain to women why I can’t shake their hand; or explain to my neighbor why I can’t eat his food. But nah, they still might think I’m lacking Derech eretz.
Besides bacon is delicious.
Joseph, again, I have heard rabonim say lemeisa shaking a woman’s hand is not automatically considered derech chiba today.
Also, does anyone have a source for what the Chelkas Yoav says about this? I recall him having a unique approach.
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