The Torah is Emes

000646, I cannot comment on the “miracle of fatima” story as I have no idea what that is a about.

The Aztecs also beleived that their sun avoda zarah led their entire nation to Mexico and their ancestors saw and heard him do so.

I can just see the tribal head sitting around the fire and under a dark sky twinkling with lights telling the tribe members how the sun “god” led their entire nation to Mexico.

I don’t really know if the Aztecs lived like tribes, but in any a case a bubba maisa could be told to the primitive masses so they can believe – but only to a certain point. For if they would really believe in what they were told, this culture would not be reduced to some archeoligical digs with strangers speculating about their culture.

It is also known as the “miracle of the sun” you can google it if you like. however I dont feel that this is the proper forum to write other relions beleifs in to much detail.

I cannot google it on my computor because I’m on a network and can only access like twenty sites or so. I cannot google anything.

When I’m at the library I will try to do that.

Okay everybody, I forgot the Aztecs were a civilization at the time the Spanish arrived, but it is still highly likely that at the birth of their culture they were still tribes, but let me change the scenerio.

The tribal priest chants incessantly under the dark sky next to the altar, where a bound maiden will soon be sacrificed to appease the gods. And then in a low voice the priest tells the barbarian pagans of the secret that was passed down by his forfathers about the “sun god” that brought the people to Mexico.

The reason their culture was reduced to nothing was because they were quite literaly wiped out by the invading spanish, with the only few survivors being those that converted to christianity. It has to do with the fact that the spanish had better weapons then them, it has nothing to do with the strength of their beleifs.

Did you read what it says in the pesukim I brought down above?

“And those of you who were left over…”

Do you think the Aztecs would practice their culture in secret like the Jews did when the Romans forbade them to make a bris, to observe Shabbos, or learn Torah?

The Jews survived not one conquest, but two, where thousands upon thousands of Jews were killed or sold off as slaves.

The Jews were dispersed between the nations and the Aztecs remained in their homeland. and yet, Judaism prevailed.

The Jews also went through forced conversions and yet Judaism prevailed.

Whole Jewish communities were murdered by the Crusaders and the Cossacks. The Jews were offered the chance to save their lives would they convert to Christianity and most chose death. And Judaism and the Jews perservered.

After the Holocaust, Eurpean Jewry was decimated, and our grandfathers started from scratch to build new frum families and communities.

The Aztecs crumbled precisely because they had no real faith because their religion was not the truth. The Jews have survived and persevered with their faith even though they have gone through what the Aztecs did hundreds of times over.

charliehall, as far as I know the people in the Middle ages thought the world was round and there was even talk of falling off the world if people came to the edge.

What the scholars knew at that point does not mean that the uneducated serfs had any knowldge of a round world. In any case, the Middle Ages was full of uneducated, boorish masses who were very superstitious sand totaly believed in things that were fake.

I am completely unconvinced that any divine work or divine being can be proven by human logic or human collection of empirical evidence.

I am not trying to prove the Torah is divine, as I have written above. The truth is the truth even without my logical proofs. I’m just discussing logical proofs regarding the Torah’s divine origin.

How can anything that is amenable to human effort in such a way be considered to be divine?

That’s a very good argument, but since the Torah was given to humans to be lived by them, learnt by them and discussed by them, we can discuss as well, logical proofs of the Torah’s divine origin.

And if you consider the possibility that logic or empirical evidence can prove Torah, you have to also consider the possibility that it can disprove Torah, chas v’shalom, otherwise you have not really conducted an investigation. How can any Jew who accepts “with perfect faith” partake of such?

Did you read my entire first post? I have stated that the Torah’s is emes regardless of whether my “logical proofs” make sense or not.

We have perfect faith either way. But some people enjoy thinking and analyzing and coming to conclusions. Nothing wrong with that.

I’ve written “…Kol sheken we little people are nothing but little microscopic dots next to Dovid Hamelech can certainly not see the entire picture in life. We see our immediate surroundings, nothing more…Therefore even if we don’t understand the truth about life and the Torah, the truth still stays the truth.”

Do I have to spell it out after what I’ve written that although we as humans cannot understand the truth about life and the Torah, we still “accept with perfect faith” that the Torah is Emes?

You seem to be assuming that the ancient Native Americans were less intelligent then Ancient people from Mespotamia. Do you have any reason or evidence to beleive this was the case?

I’m not sure when the Aztec became an organized culture so I’m not sure from when we can compare them to the ancients in Mespotamia, but since they were difinitely around at the times of the Greeks, I’ll do the comparing to them and onward.

While the Greeks sacrificed humans there were much rarer than the Aztecs. The Aztecs also were cannibals. They were much more primitive than the more relatively cultured Greeks and Romans.

The Aztecs practiced these exremely sadistic pagan rituals far longer than the Muslim or Christains which adpoted a religion that worshipped only one god, which was an advancement in human perception.

In addition, while the Aztec architecure of housing and temples was amazing it doesn’t compare to the Greek and Roman architecture of early times and many, many years later when the Spanish conquered the Aztecs they were way ahead of them with weapons, science etc. The fact is, that the Europeans were considered cultured while the Aztecs were primitives.

In addition there is absolutely no proof that the Aztecs actually EVER BELIEVED in the legend about the sun god. I doubt if a brutal culture would have let people voice their own opinions and ideas, just like any dictatorship forced their opinion on the masses or like communism enforced their ideoligy on people. People sometimes don’t have a choices in following ideological, cultural, or religious doctrines.

It would seem from looking at the history of what happnend that the Aztecs crumbled because they were KILLED OUT by the Spanish, other Indian tribes that helped the Spanish and diseases that were brought over on the boats from Europe. If you have any evidence that they abandoned their beleifs because simply because they stopped beleiving please post it. If anything it would seem from the fact that they spent so much time building temples and other religous actions that they took their religion quite seriously.

Let’s not speculate history. The FACT is that many Aztecs were forcibly converted to Christianity. None practiced their faith as Marronos, like the Jews did. In addition, between all the jungles and land, if the Aztecs really could have wanted they could have hidden and preserved their culure as the Jews in the time of the Maccabees. There is absolutely no way a small PART of the Spanish army (no country ever sent to America their entire army) could exterminate millions of people, even with the Indian’s help. Between the guns of a few Spanish soldiers, and the primitive bows and arrows from the Indians, it was impossible to exterminate all the MILLIONS of Aztecs.

The Nazis who were much technologiacly adavanced, between cyanide, machine guns, planes, submarines, vehicles, etc. and the force of their ENTIRE army, were able to exterminate millions of people. But the fact that the Aztecs were numerous in number and well defended against a small Spanish contingent of soldiers and the Indians primitive weapons and the ability to hide in the vast unpopulated jungles could have in no way totally killed out every single Aztec. It would rather seem that the Aztecs were tired themselves of their brutal regime and gave up the fight rather quickly.

If anything it would seem from the fact that they spent so much time building temples and other religous actions that they took their religion quite seriously

Building temples and following rituals mean nothing. There culture was one of fear and they HAD to do what was expected of them, otherwise they would be eaten for supper! (just kidding) It wasn’t a democracy where everyone could choose to do what they wanted to.