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My turn, thank you for trying to bring some balance to this conversation. An objective observer skimming through it will notice that girls are allowed to choose a partner that they like. They may reject boys for being dull, lacking a sense of humor etc, until they find what they consider a “true personality match.” Those same girls despair and find the whole world corrupt and intolerable when they are rejected by boys. Perhaps you can make an argument that girls are more attracted to guys who are great conversationalists with an amazing sense of humor, while guys are more into appearance. And if you want to say that this is not human nature, but rather a result of men being deeply flawed, then go ahead. I’m not sure I”ll join you though.
Anecdotal evidence cannot be used to draw definite conclusions. But I would like to end with something I was told when I turned to a seasoned shadchan with many years experience (and many successes) for advice. I was finding it frustrating that I was not successful in trying to set up a date. I initially took to heart the whole shidduch crisis uproar and tried to set up a few shidduchim between people I knew. And my rejections were coming from the girls! Was I doing something wrong? The shadchan told me that was all part of the hard work that goes into shidduchim, and admitted that she often has a much harder time from the girls than from the guys!
A lot can be said for the revolutionary idea that everyone, both male and female, approach shidduchim with kindness, consideration, and menchlichkeit. And many people do. Which can B”H be attested to by the wedding invitations that fall into our mailboxes with great frequency, and the lack of space in our kindergartens.
oomis
Maybe we run different circles but in most cases I know of the guy agrees when his mother nixes a shidduch based on XYZ and if he doesn’t I would think most mother’s wouldn’t stop their son from dating someone they’re interested in. “
I suspect I am a great deal older than you, so I guess we do run in different circles (wish I could still run)… But out here, most of the mothers of the type that has been negatively described, DO NOT EVEN LET THEIR SONS KNOW ABOUT THE GIRLS, if the moms do not first think the girl is attractive enough for their sons. It is only with their prior approval, that the boys are even shown the profiles of said girls. You would be shocked at how many moms WOULD ABSOLUTELY stop their sons from dating someone, by not letting the girl’s info even be made known to the son. I have friends who have done this, and I have told them my opinion on the subject.
Posted 5 hours ago #
MyTurnAtBat
Member
oomis can we assume that your daughters are all fascinating and gracious? Perhaps you are being a little critical of the males of our society, something I’m seeing a whole lot of on these pages. The boys are under tremendous pressure in general and on the date in particular. Not so the girls. There’s a post on these pages by a woman who says her son is going off the derech. He’s shomer shabbos but skips scharcharis and sleeps till noon. For a boy that’s off the derech. But that’s what we call a good girl. There’s so much less pressure on the women that it’s easier for them to act a little more together on dates, particular when on that date they are passive and the guy is doing all the driving, paying, and thinking of things to do, facing the parents etc. “
Since you asked and FTR, my girls ARE indeed, fascinating and gracious (as well as extremely attractive, smart, kind, loving, and baalos middos tovos, which they no doubt got from their father). One is married, two are not. And they daven every day. No one sleeps until noon, but if they did, they would still not skip shacharis OR mincha, because it is choshuv to them. Girls do not have the same halachic chiyuv in davening as boys (and if someone’s son is skipping Shacharis regularly, I would be a bit concerned about that), so your analogy, while well-intentioned, does not really hit the mark.
SOME girls are passive on dates, as are SOME boys. One cannot generalize about this. There is less pressure for the girls in SOME aspects of dating, but not in others, and there is less pressure for the boys in SOME aspects of dating but not others. The girls still have the majority of the waiting to be asked out. The boys generally are the ones getting all the profiles (sent to their moms), and it’s like Baskin-Robbins all over for them.
“I suspect I am a great deal older than you, so I guess we do run in different circles (wish I could still run)… But out here, most of the mothers of the type that has been negatively described, DO NOT EVEN LET THEIR SONS KNOW ABOUT THE GIRLS, if the moms do not first think the girl is attractive enough for their sons. It is only with their prior approval, that the boys are even shown the profiles of said girls. You would be shocked at how many moms WOULD ABSOLUTELY stop their sons from dating someone, by not letting the girl’s info even be made known to the son. I have friends who have done this, and I have told them my opinion on the subject.”
Ok. Maybe that’s the case. But if a guy trusts that his mother is looking for what he wants it’s not such a big deal. If not, he’s an idiot for not taking matters into his own hands. The whole going through the mother thing bothers me for a much different reason that most people. My theory is if a guy is old enough to get married he’s old enough to talk to a shadchan directly without having his mommy do it for him.
“Singles date so long because they have goyish view of life. If the Mishnah tells us to be married at 18, how can it be that we need to date till we are 30 or more?”
Go ahead and find me a rabbi who actually paskens this way. I’ve never met one.
“I didn’t say that anybody should marry a bad person or a really bad match, just a decent match. That’s all you need in this life as life is a journey and a challenge that is meant to be done in the company of a spouse.”
That’s not what you said originally. All you said one needs is a “half-decent person”– nothing about a “decent match”.
“I’m curious, since you call yourself a feminist, do you pick up your dates or meet them halfway? Do you split the check or even pick up the check? Do you brave rejection and ask out the guy. In other words, are you really a feminist?”
Go look at my profile. I created this account six years ago. If I were creating it today I would choose a different name. Does that mean I no longer call myself a feminist? Actually I do; I just wouldn’t choose to advertise it as much because on this site people get so hung up on the name and use that as a way to attack me rather than responding to the substance of what I post. (That’s less true in recent years since I’ve been posting less frequently to begin with and harping on feminist issues less as well, but then something like this comes up and you see what happens.)
My husband and I recently celebrated our first anniversary. However, to answer your questions based on how I behaved as a single (not that it’s really relevant, but I’ll humor you):
Yes, I asked out several guys rather than waiting for them to ask me. And yes, I was rejected more than once and it did hurt, but I kept doing it because it was important to me.
Yes, I split the check with some guys I dated. Others I let pay for me. The way I see it, if the guy and girl are in similar financial situations, there is no reason why the guy should always have to pay. When I was a student dating other students, I always split the check and I certainly didn’t insist on fancy, expensive dates. When I was a student dating older guys who were working and could afford to pay for me and didn’t mind doing it, I let them.
I did a lot of long-distance dating, and yes, sometimes I was the one to travel.
I don’t understand your last question about a “multi-decade search for a spouse with the men doing all the work”. If you’d like to clarify what you mean by that, I’d be happy to answer it.
Oh the shidduch system, I think the atheists say it best….blame it on God.
My theory is if a guy is old enough to get married he’s old enough to talk to a shadchan directly without having his mommy do it for him. ‘
I am SO with you on that score!
oomis
glad we agree on something 🙂
Why? After he’s married he can have his wife do it for him.
Or wives.
I know I said that I would not return to the coffee room, and I still stand by that. However I was alerted to this post by a friend who asked me to raise a point and an issue that he has been having, and I would like to know what all of you have to say about it. is it possible that we are all to blame? can it be that both men and women going out are too superficial ? there are ample examples being brought up of boys being picky over girls looks , but my friend for instance is 21 years old, tall, an extremely nice person, who cannot get a date because he has an up hat. does that make sense? and it is the girls who are bothered by it , not the mothers. What do you think, is that a valid worry, when the bochur is one of the nicest, smartest boys in yeshiva, when he wears that type of hat just because he has been wearing it all his life (and no he is not chasidish) is that a reason to reject him?
I will now once again leave, and come back periodically over the next few days to see if anyone replied thanks
Why does he wear an up hat?
It isn’t remotely believable that he is a regular litvish yeshivish boy and just happens to wear an up hat. And insisting on that makes it look like you are hiding something.
I wouldn’t go near such a shidduch with a 10 foot daughter.
See Kovetz Igros Chazon Ish, 1-20-4.
Although, if my daughter were 10′, I’d reconsider.
jewishfeminist02, I won’t quote all of your answers but will say I found them refreshing. A woman who calls herself a feminist (or did) but sees in that an obligation to shoulder some of the burden that comes with the man’s role is a whole different kind of person from the kind that just wants to take everything and doesn’t see the many advantages that women have in the traditional role. They want to keep those and then acquire what they perceive as the male’s advantage. They should be called selfishists, not feminists. If you traveled, asked out, even paid then you are doing something entirely different.
One of the really scary things about dating for many guys is that their introduction to women (other than their mother) is people who take. You wonder is this what marriage is going to be like? I give, she takes? NY dating is the very worst. Israeli dating is much fairer. Out of town you don’t have to drive as far. NY guys have it the worst.
I really struggled with the burden of asking out women. Even calling women as arranged by the shadchan was painful to me. Some guys tell me it doesn’t bother them at all. I found not only the rejection excruciating, but even the asking.
Obviously, there’s no way for anyone of us to know who has it worse, or if one side has it worse. We each know our own pain. I do observe that the public discourse rarely recognizes the pain of the men. In the frum world, men are often looked as being made of stone and women as being delicate flowers. I have seen grown men break down into sobs when talking about their shiduch woes.
I’m not saying that anybody should marry without having good, positive feelings about the other person. I’m saying that today people want perfection. They are shopping for iphones. You can’t expect a 25 year old person in this day and age to be perfect. And you certainly can’t expect a 35 single person to be anything other than a train wreck.
The main happiness of marriage is in being married. We focus way too much on finding these perfect matches. That’s what I mean by half-decent match.
I believe that in life we should take our main pointers from the halacha. If the halacha says 18 to the chupah and our dating philosophy has us 32 and single, or 40 and single, then there is something wrong with our dating philosophy. We are making it all too complicated. You pay a big price for dragging it out. You lose your innocence for one. Dating is a kind of promiscuity. You may lose your fertility. I have seen that happen to many. And children are the greatest joy. And you lost the ability to connect to your spouse. We are closest to the people we meet when we are young. Marrying young is the way we have worked for 1000s of years and the way demanded by the halacha, musar, aggadatah, the whole Torah talks about it. If people want to mess with that and say times have changed, I can’t stop them. But I can cry for them because they are throwing their lives away.
And parents who interfere with their children’s shiduchim and fill their heads with grandiose expectations and don’t talk sense into them and get them married young – that’s the biggest nebach of all, because people with life experience should be wise, not fools.
oomis I’m glad that you see such good in your girls. Some parents put their kids down and that’s really tragic. You just have to know that’s in part because you are their mother. It’s important that you have an ayan tov for the boys too. Most of them also are good kids and doing their best and are good matches for your daughters. Let them all get on with life. There are so many people today who take pride in destroying shiduchim. They love to say no. We need people who love to say yes, who find the good in people, even people who are not their kids.
<The girls still have the majority of the waiting to be asked out. The boys generally are the ones getting all the profiles (sent to their moms), and it’s like Baskin-Robbins all over for them.>
Depends which circles you are talking about. There are more girls who want a boy in learning than there are boys who want to be in learning. No shock there, it’s harder to be something than to want something.
In those circles, the boys have the lists. In many other groups, MO, BTs, older singles, boys who have the sense to know they need a parnassah, there the men don’t have such lists, some can’t get a date at all.
Don’t worry; it isn’t at all like Baskin Robbins. Every resume is exactly the same, and every reference says the same cliches.
Its more like a vegan chinese restaraunt (I’m talking to you seattle). Everything has a different name but its all sauteed tofu.
(Full disclosure, I never ate at one of those places in seattle).
In those circles, the boys have the lists. In many other groups, MO, BTs, older singles, boys who have the sense to know they need a parnassah, there the men don’t have such lists, some can’t get a date at all.
On which planet?
The key word that girls use over and over is N O R M A L. Most single girls I know are looking for a normal boy. By and large, they want to get married and have kids, and are willing to look away stuff (way more than the guys).
I invite the guys you speak of to join SYAS or to network and find out who “SB” is, who I spoke of earlier, who emails Shadchanim tens of profiles daily.
Yes, but whose definition of normal?
I am curious, Ofcourse, in your experience, what percentage of unsuccessful shidduchim are ended by the boy, and what percentage by the girl?
i’ve been kind of following this thread on and off…since i’m in the parsha, figured i can add in my two cents… first of all, i’m one of those girls who wants a “normal” boy- whatever that means. And ya know what- this might blow you all away, I’m one of the (few) girls that wants a G-d fearing, upstanding, respectable, kind, WORKING guy. I just want to let you know that when i tell this to shadchanim, i get set up with boys much more modern than myself. I am a totally 100% frum BY type girl- and that doesn’t mean button down shirt, dark colored sweater, pleated skirt BY- I mean fun, colorful, (a little) open minded- but I’m in no way modern. Not that i like labels, but i’m using them so u understand what i’m saying. so basically, the working boys i’ve gone out with have either been a) totally rude and obnoxious and think (know) they are G-d’s gift to the world, and they let me know it, or b) just totally socially awkward, not knowing that u can’t come to a date in a crumpled suit, big lazy bums… so yes, out of all the boys i went out with, i’ve said no to like 11 of them! cuz you know what, i’m not even giving a second/third chance to ppl who are rude, obnoxious, or don’t care to present themselves nicely. So yes, you may call me picky, b/c i’m the one mostly saying no- but gosh- don’t i have the right? you don’t know my story, and you don’t know lots of girls stories!and yes, by the way, just like boys are attracted to certain looks, so are us girls, you can’t just marry someone whose looks you can’t stand! (disclaimer, there are for sure girls who are sooo picky and they don’t want anyone with red hair/beard/big nose/glasses- you know, narishkeit like that, i’m not saying there are no girls out there that are picky like that, i’m just saying, i don’t think most of them are) So I dunno where all the boys are that you are talking about are- the respectful, respectable, kind, gentlemen, who love Torah but perhaps happen to be working. where are they?? Another problem that i face by the way is the problem of support. my parents can’t commit to a certain amt! right now they are trying to support themselves, like many other ppl! i’m sure my parents aren’t the only ones! but if they can’t support, i’m not worth it??? THAT BOTHERS ME TO NO END. I THINK IT’S DISGUSTING. I HAVE A JOB, I’LL WORK, MY HUSBAND WILL WORK. IF YOU TRUST YOUR SON TO GET MARRIED, WHY CAN’T YOU TRUST THAT WE WILL FIGURE OUT OUR FINANCES WITHOUT MUCH FINANCIAL SUPPORT FROM MY PARENTS? SO WHAT IF WE MAKE A FEW MISTAKES- THE WORST THING THAT CAN HAPPEN IS WE WILL LEARN FROM THEM, AND WE WILL LEARN TO COMMUNICATE BETTER THAN MANY COUPLES WHO ARE SPOONFED FROM DAY ONE AND HAVE NO FINANCES TO DISCUSS CUZ ITS ALL BEING TAKEN CARE OF FOR THEM.
i might have gone slightly off topic, but just had to get it out, and it seemed like a pretty ok thread to add it to.
I think that for many girls, the bloom and appeal have worn off the rose of fully/indefinitely financially supporting their husbands while running a household, having baby after baby (that they cannot afford, because there is only one salary coming in from an already overburdened wife), and basically having a marriage in which one member is not fully participating.
When girls ask for “normal” at least in my experience, they are often saying they want a guy who is ehrliche frum, knows how to learn and makes time to do so, but also recognizes that a marriage takes two people to make it work, and the responsibility has to be borne by both. They want a guy who will be able to have a normal and pleasant conversation with them and with their friends and families, who has a sense of humor, pleasant personality, grooms himself hygienically (VERY VERY IMPORTANT, and one would think this is a given, but for so many guys, it isn’t), and is THERE for his wife, when she needs him, and sometimes, even when she doesn’t, simply because they are married and need to build their relationship together.
So in other words, most boys are horrible.
Impressed, DY.
At last, someone wise enough to distill the essence of all these posts and get to the bottom line.
How all of this will help anyone get closer to standing under the chuppah, I can’t say I know.
Do you?
It isn’t remotely believable that he is a regular litvish yeshivish boy and just happens to wear an up hat. And insisting on that makes it look like you are hiding something.
he isn’t litvish, I guess you could call his family heimish, he is just a regular boy who learnt in litvish yeshivas, skewing slightly towards heimish. my beef was not that girls don’t want him, just that they are not even giving him an ounce of thought, assuming he is chasidish just because of his hat, and not even bothering to find out if it is true – as all those who know him say- that he is not chasidish at all.
the only reason he wears it is because he has always worn it, because his family is sort of heimish and isn’t thrilled with the idea of changing his hat just because some girls are superficial.
plus, as the main thrust of my question was, why is the hat so important that girls aren’t even remotely interested in hearing a word about the bochur , not even one! the second they hear about the hat
So in other words, most boys are horrible.
typical way of mocking a whole bunch of legitimate concerns by oversimplifying them into something silly. Maybe some sensitivity to those who are actually suffering from the above mentioned stupidity of the system would be more appropriate. Or maybe leave it to those who have been there and know it really happens.
Typical of what?
somehow the post must have blurred, making it hard for you to read, so I am reposting.
So in other words, most boys are horrible.
typical way of mocking a whole bunch of legitimate concerns by oversimplifying them into something silly. Maybe some sensitivity to those who are actually suffering from the above mentioned stupidity of the system would be more appropriate. Or maybe leave it to those who have been there and know it really happens.
Syag/DaasYochid:
Wiktionary definitions for typical:
1 Capturing the overall sense of a thing.
2 Characteristically representing something by form, group, idea or type.
3 Normal, average; to be expected.
So, typical can, but does not necessarily, mean”typical of something.
My father wears an up hat because he doesn’t look good in a down hat. However, this
Because he has always worn it, because his family is sort of heimish and isn’t thrilled with the idea of changing his hat just because some girls are superficial.
doesn’t seem to make sense: If his father wears an up hat, it’s normal for him; but if he doesn’t, why does his son? And why resist changing it?
You have to be more specific when you talk about being normal. The boys are under way more pressure than the girls in general and on the dates. It’s much more easy to relax and converse when you are in the passenger seat than when you are the one who has to drive 2 hours, meet the parents, find a place to eat, find parking, and be the perfect gentleman the whole way. The men are under a microscope placed upon them by hypercritical ladies of all sorts. We see some of them on this discussion board.
<<where are the boys who are respectful, respectable, kind, gentlemen, who love Torah >>
I know plenty of boys like that. And I know no more girls like that. Hopefully they can find each other, unless they are not as kind as they see themselves and they are out finding fault in one another.
“They may reject boys for being dull, lacking a sense of humor etc, until they find what they consider a “true personality match.” Those same girls despair and find the whole world corrupt and intolerable when they are rejected by the boys.”
This is very well put. You can also say that they are just plain spoiled. If there’s one single cause of the singles crisis it’s that people today are spoiled brats. This takes many forms.
oomis, what is your definition of having a normal conversation?
You can list a bunch of things that you define as normal that a girl would desire but does that mean if 30% of the time they aren’t “normal” that the guy isn’t good enough?
I think my wife says I have good hygiene, I wonder if I skip a shower one day because I’m too tired or brush my teeth once instead twice a day am I not normal.
These are the kind of things the couple discovers after they get married. Myturnatbat said it well, we spend too much time looking for the “perfect one”. There is only so much you can find out.
It’s much more easy to relax and converse when you are in the passenger seat than when you are the one who has to drive 2 hours, meet the parents, find a place to eat, find parking, and be the perfect gentleman the whole way. “
True for the most part, but meeting the parents does not have to be a “do or die” proposition. I do not think that even one guy that my daughters have dated, could possibly say meeting my husband and me was an uncomfortable experience. They might have been nervous PRIOR, but surely not after, because we are a warm and friendly bunch at my house. No interrogations, no nuthin’. Just hello, nice to meet you, where are you going tonight, and have a great time.
The other aspects, driving around, finding where to go (and really, the guy should already have an idea of that BEFORE the date), and parking, can be stressors, but “being a perfect gentleman the whole way,” should be a no-brainer and a given. A fellow who does not know how to be a gentleman, needs to be taught good manners prior to being in shidduchim, if his parents have not already instilled them in him. My husband comes from very poshut, non-frum people, who had more menschlechkeit and good middos bein adam l’chaveiro in their little fingers than many FFB people (with or without a hat)that I have seen, have in their entire bodies.
Popa was right.
When Ofcourse said that boys are looking for specific physical characteristics, she meant thin. See her comment here:
I think speed dating makes a lot of sense in today’s generation. However, this may not be giving a fair shot to guy and girls who don’t do well in those types of settings.
Seriously? Speed dating? To me, speed dating is “She’s pretty, she’s not, he’s cute, he’s not”, Isn’t marriage supposed to be about making a life together, helping one another grow, having personalities that mesh well together, and being able to live in peace and harmony together?
It doesn’t make sense. Just relax about the looks, most girls and boys are decent looking with a few that are gorgeous and a few that are ugly. I have a seriously hard time with all these posts that girls are huge and ugly and boys are unkempt and rude.
Have you people dated recently or gone to wedding with lots of young people? They look nice, The problem is the options thing,
If you are speed dating, WHY would you stay with ONE when there are so many to choose from?
Do regular dating and give each person a chance without thinking about all the other “fish in the sea”
Seriously? Speed dating? To me, speed dating is “She’s pretty, she’s not, he’s cute, he’s not”
Are you a 14 year old boy? That would explain why you think that.
ironpenguin – Stop dealing with what you would like the world to be, and deal with it the way it is.
One famous Lakewood Shaddchan says consistently that the number one criteria for finding a boy is money.
So if a boy really likes the way a girl looks and decides to date her even if her father doesn’t have Cayman Island bank accounts, all the better for her. You need to grab every advantage you can get.
One famous Lakewood Shaddchan says consistently that the number one criteria for finding a boy is money. for the ????. We urgently require a ????, that if a marriage ends in divorce within 10 years, that ???? is ????? to return the money.
We urgently require a ????, that if a marriage ends in divorce within 10 years, that ???? is ????? to return the money.
That’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve heard in years. The Shadchan is not responsible for the couple’s marital problems.
“But,” you’ll say “it is his/her fault. The Shadchan should never have put them together if they were going to fail.”
Baloney. The Shadchan doesn’t force anyone into a marriage. The primary people who have to take responsibility for a marriage are the bride and groom. If they go into a marriage that is doomed to fail from the start (which is the only scenario where you might, conceivably, say it’s the Shadchan’s fault) then it’s their fault for not saying “No. This marriage isn’t going to work. I’m not going forward.” They have to take primary responsibility – not the Shadchan.
The Wolf
Bump – in honor of “Hashem is reading” (Note:I’m putting your name in quotes because I always feel like an apikorus when I write your name).
In case anyone didn’t get the joke:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/fire-is-retarded#post-638281
In case anyone didn’t get the joke:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/fire-is-retarded#post-638281
Speed dating is a very controversial topic. I understand the sensitivity of this issue but it is completely assur. Girls should be wined and dined because it is only proper to get to actually know the girl and not just her looks. speed dating causes the boy to care about superficial things such as her hair and eyes. There are more important qualities in women.
HASHKAFAHMASTER613 said: “There are more important qualities in women.”
HASHKAFAHMASTER613 +1
“HASHKAFAHMASTER613 said: “There are more important qualities in women.”
LB: “HASHKAFAHMASTER613 +1”
Lightbrite & Hashkafamaster613 – +1!
I’m not opposed to speeddating for older singles, but I do hear the issues with it. I think that it should only be done for older singles, ones that are serious about getting married and who aren’t the superficial type and even then it should be done sparingly.
Also, it has to be planned well. It should be by invitation only and the one organizing should make sure that all the people there are more-or-less a similar type (although there should be some flexibility in terms of hashkafa) and serious, tznius, etc
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