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How come Rav Shach must be called r shach otherwise your a lubavithcher hater, but shach in shulchan aruch shach goes by shach (the shach says)
Edited
Shach was Rav Shach’s last name.
ש”ך is ראשי תיבות for שפתי כהן.
Godol me’Rabbon – shmo (it is greater to call by his name then with titles).
No ones calls Hillel Hazoken – Rabbon Hillel.
No one calls Shmule or Dovid or Sholmo with a title.
Mordechai is just a name without title.
Titles BELITTLE the greatness.,
Yet, we have a backwards mindset (daas baal habayis hepech Torah) and feel the need for titles: Moran, Moran V’Rabbonon, Harav Hagaon…so in our warped world, saying a name without a title is demeaning of the gadol.
I still call Reb Moshe as such, because of his greatness as possek hador (for America and world)! Is that being hateful or disrespectful? C”V! Reb Moshe was so much greater than simply calling him “Rav Feinstein”!! He will always be Reb Moshe!
Godol me’Rabbon – shmo (it is greater to call by his name then with titles).
Oh I see so….
אדונינו מורינו ורבינו degrades the Lubavitcher rebbe? (Heck even the word rebbe denigrates him) maybe you should start referring to him as shneerson)
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
No one calls Shmule or Dovid or Sholmo with a title.
Titles BELITTLE the greatness.Am I belittling Dovid or Shlomo if I add the title “HaMelech?”
Am I belittling Shmuel if I add the title “HaNavi” or “HaChozeh?”
Am I belittling Moshe if I add the title “Rabbeinu?”The Wolf
The Rebbe is different. We dont refer to the Rebbe by his name, even not by roshei teivos (like he was referred to before the Nesius) but just The Rebbe. Everybody in the world knows who The Rebbe is, when talking about other rebbes they say Gerrer rebbe, satmar rebbe etc., but everyone knows who The Rebbe is.
edited! We do not capitalize the word ‘he’ when talking about a person!
How come Rav Shach must be called r shach otherwise your a lubavithcher hater, but shach in shulchan aruch shach goes by shach (the shach says)
For the same reason we don’t refer to Rav Chofetz Chaim.
When we refer to a name of a Rav, we use an honorific. If we refer to a person by his magnum opus (as in the example you brought), we just refer to the work without adding any titles.
The Wolf
Everybody in the world knows who The Rebbe is, when talking about other rebbes they say Gerrer rebbe, satmar rebbe etc., but everyone knows who The Rebbe is.
FWIW, I do not refer to the Lubavitcher Rebbe as “The Rebbe.” I refer to him as “The Lubavitcher Rebbe” or (rarely) “Rabbi Schneerson.”
The Wolf
edited! We do not capitalize the word ‘he’ when talking about a person!
I do! (When it’s the first word in the sentence. 🙂 😀 )
The Wolf
I agree with Wolf on this. In many many litvish circles if you start off a sentence with ‘the rebbe’ they will assume you are talking about your son’s teacher. If a chassid starts a sentence with ‘the rebbe’ there is no doubt they are speaking of their own rebbe. We only assume ‘the rebbe’ to be a reference to the lubavitcher rebbe of a lubavitcher said it or if that is the specific topoc of conversation. (Or on the occassion that he is dead and tbey say shlita anyway)
I’ve heard speakers refer to “the Rosh Hayeshiva”, and unless you know in which yeshiva he learned (and sometimes, which years), you don’t know to whom he is referring.
Wolf – No one calls Shmule or Dovid or Sholmo with a title.
Titles BELITTLE the greatness.
Am I belittling Dovid or Shlomo if I add the title “HaMelech?”
Am I belittling Shmuel if I add the title “HaNavi” or “HaChozeh?”
Am I belittling Moshe if I add the title “Rabbeinu?”Firstly, Godol MeRabbon Shmo is a chazal, so if there is a question, it is to CHazal.
But secondly, all the examples are NOT prefix but a suffix, you don’t ever say Rabi Moshe Rabbeinu, or Rabbon Dovid Hamelech or Rav Shmuel Hanovee.
(The prefix is a title while the suffix is the “job description”).No one calls Shmule or Dovid or Sholmo with a title.
No one? I do it quite often.
(The prefix is a title while the suffix is the “job description”).
Oh. So if I call him HaMelech Dovid, that’s belittling him?
The Wolf
Coffee Addict – Oh I see so….אדונינו מורינו ורבינו degrades the Lubavitcher rebbe? Moran degrades Rav Shach? (Heck even the word rebbe and rav denigrates them) maybe you should start referring to them as shach or shneerson)
Context. Is. Everything.
If someone calls out Jew, it might be as an insult or it might be a proud declaration of who we are.
If said for respect, bu all means, if said to denigrate, there is a price to pay for being mevazeh talmidei chachomim.
All in context.
“you don’t ever say Rabi Moshe Rabbeinu, or Rabbon Dovid Hamelech or Rav Shmuel Hanovee.“
But you do say RAV Shimon Bar Yochai, RAV Yochanan Ben Zakai, Rav Yehuda HaNasi….
All in context.
That contradicts what you said earlier. You said that using a title before the name belittles a person.
So, if I say “HaMelech Dovid,” is that denigrating him or respecting him?
The Wolf
That contradicts what you said earlier.
Yes, it does, I noticed that too.
Coffee Addict – But you do say RAV Shimon Bar Yochai, RAV Yochanan Ben Zakai, Rav Yehuda HaNasi….
Firstly, it is “Rabon” Shimon bar Yochai and “Rabon” Yochonon ben Zakai and Rebbe or Rabi Yehuda Hanasi.
Second – why the distinctions between rav, rabi, rabon and shmo (no title)?
Education:
תוספתא עדיות פ”ג מ”ד (ובמפרשים שם): “גדול מרב – רבי, גדול מרבי – רבן, גדול מרבן – שמו”
Lowest honor was title “Rav”, next was “Rabi”, then “Rabon”, the highest honor was name alone withouit title.
Coffee Addict – But you do say RAV Shimon Bar Yochai, RAV Yochanan Ben Zakai, Rav Yehuda HaNasi….
Firstly, it is “Rabon” Shimon bar Yochai and “Rabon” Yochonon ben Zakai and Rebbe or Rabi Yehuda Hanasi.
Second – why the distinctions between rav, rabi, rabon and shmo (no title)?
Education:
תוספתא עדיות פ”ג מ”ד (ובמפרשים שם): “גדול מרב – רבי, גדול מרבי – רבן, גדול מרבן – שמו”
Lowest honor was title “Rav”, next was “Rabi”, then “Rabon”, the highest honor was name alone withouit title.
Also depends on general chassidic acceptance.
We all heard of Reb Zusha, Reb Elimelech etc. just “Reb” no great titles to these tzaddikim!
“Depends on if your a lubavitcher or a litvak”
So, if you’re a Lubavitcher the minhag is to “honor” other gedolim by not using titles and, if you really want to honor them, using insulting terms to refer to them. Meanwhile, people who spend 8 months in a Chabad kiruv yeshiva and get “smichah” get the title of Rabbi and it would be insulting not to refer to them as such?
OK, I think I got the minhag down pat.
Neville, are you trying to understand minhagim?! Minhagim rarely make any sense (especially chassidish ones, and extra specially Lubavitch ones)! It’s hard enoughto try to understand our Litvish minhagim! Chaim Berlin has it’s own minhagim – like what’s the deal with folding talis on the shoulder under, when everyone folds it over?! (I was told Rav Hutner z”l started that – I am sure for good reason, but don’t try to understand and explain it). We do a heicha kedusha for Mincha, ignoring normative Shulchan Aruch, because that is the minhag in most Litvish Yeshivos – don’t try to explain, it’s ok. A minhag can trump halacha! (That is actually the halacha!) No one has a right to howl at other yidden that have their minhagim – that is their minhag, ity’s NOT for me or you, but for them it is ok. Don’t you get that?!
I dont really understand the point of this thread. Yes, obviously the reason we dont give titles to certain people (I will even avoid mentioning a name here so the mods dont give him a title in my words) is because we have zero respect for them, because they do not deserve any honor, because they went against the Nesi Yisroel, the Rebbe Shlita. Are the lubavitchers here trying to imply that we dont give them titles as a sign davka of our respect? That’s ridiculous, and then you are being mehapeich the tzinoros! The Rebbe doesnt want you to try to lie and mislead people! That doesnt bring honor to Him! Say it like it is!
RebbetzinG,,
must I disabuse you of your background educationfirstly a primary role in the whole Hasidic movement was to break rigid hierarchy
they were opposed to the pyramid of titles
was supposed to be a common Brotherhood
cf. comrade after the Russian Revolution
Second it is of course impolitic to say thus And heresy for ears like yours but many of them while righteous
were not Scholars of the first rankRebbetzinG,
Just in case you didn’t catch , Neville was being facetious when he called it a minhag
Second
this is the best defense you could offer?
How about hmm..Lev Tahor
According to you they are as entitled to what they perceive as their minhag!Tomim – “is because we have zero respect for them, because they do not deserve any honor, because they went against the Nesi Yisroel”,
Look, I respect you guys, I admire and even love you folks, but you are crossing the line here!
Don’t you dare speak against the Sar HaTorah!
If he did not see eye to eye with your Rebbe, so what?
The Talmud is filled with heated machlokes of the greatest ta’anoim (even placing some in cherem due to machlokes) but does that demean their gadlus in Torah?!
Did the talmidim of one Ta’na insult the other ta’na?!
I will stand up fiercely against anyone that dares say a negative word against your Rebbe who was a Gadol and Tzaddik (as everyone honest knows), but I will equally howl at you for being disrespectful to my Gedolie Yisroel!
The Satmar Rebbe Reb Yoilish zt”l also disagreed with your Rebbe (especially about putting on tefillin on non-religious men), but they had mutual respect, even if they disagreed and did not see eye to eye.
Rav Hutner disagreed with your Rebbe about many issues, but they were chavrusos for many years, learning once a week (I think on Friday night when Rav Hutner lived in Brownsville – he would make the long walk).
Respect does not mean agreeing. You can disagree with others but still respect them.
I denigrate those that howl like dogs at Lubavitch. Don’t be like them by howling disrespectfully at my Gedolim!
Rebbitzen Goldenpickanicerscreenname, where did you hear Rav Hutner and the rebbe were chavrusas? I have heard that as well, but the Chabadskers I know have not heard this. And honestly Chabad knows EVERY detail of the Rebbes life, so I’m a little skeptical its true.
Chabad members feel free to chime in as well.Its Time – “many of them while righteous
were not Scholars of the first rank”Where do you get this fiction from?!
You can call him the Avi Ezri, which would be like The Shach. Otherwise it’s like saying The Shneerson.
Unfortunately, Rav Shach zt”l was proven correct. Many thought he was wrong , but the last 25 years have proven him correct, as discussed elsewhere.
Daniel was punished for Nuvuchadnetzar davening to him, as per the midrash.
Its Time for the unTruth – “many of them while righteous were not Scholars of the first rank” Did you farher them on their scholarship? Do you have ANY source for such foolishness? Just to hack about other yidden! Imagine if someone wrote that the great geonim of Lita “while outstanding scholars, they were not very religious”, would that not be utter silliness! Now look at what you wrote, I mirrored it back to you. Is it silliness or foolishness?
RebbetzinG,
while it is painful and tough to discover you’ve been taught till now to be incorrect
that’s part of growing upR’ zusha When challenged admitted he did not know yerushalmi
Reb Levi Yitzchok of berditchev who was a scholar of note was still handily defeated in the Pinsk debate of 1784But if revisionism suits you And yours better ,Be Our Guest .
K-cup – “where did you hear Rav Hutner and the rebbe were chavrusas?”
My husband was a talmid of Rav Hutner and every so often the Rosh Yeshiva would mention fondly of learning with the Lubavitcher Rebbe (however, that might have been when they were both in Sorbonne days in Paris during WW2).
If you want more on the subject, there is a new book (I did not see it and cannot vouch for it): Rabbi Hutner and Rebbe, (JEP, March 2019), by Rabbi Chaim Dalfin of Boro Park. I hope it is respectful and accurate.
Reviews state that the book is dedicated to the relationship and correspondence between Rabbi Hutner and the Lubavitcher Rebbe, which began in the University of Berlin and carried on until Rabbi Hutner’s passing prior to Pesach in 1980.
Rav Hutner had a talmid by the name of Freifeld. Rav Hutner said to Freifeld on the day he was niftar that he wants to tell him something but he shouldn’t be upset. “There’s one Tzadik in the world and he lives on Eastern Parkway”.
The great ones respected each other greatly.
K-cup,
Correction/clarification: My husband just told me that from when the Lubavitcher Rebbe arrived in America in 1941 until he took the leadership and became the Lubavitcher Rebbe in 1950, he and Rabbi Hutner maintained a weekly chavrusa (joint study).
The Rosh Yeshiva maintained an on-going correspondence with the Rebbe. Some of the response letters of the Rebbe are printed in Igros Kodesh Volumes 7- pp. 2, 49, 192, 215, 12- pp. 28, 193, 14- pp. 167, 266, 18- pp. 251, 25- pp. 18–20, and 26- p. 485.
The Rosh Yeshiva (in these letters) is seeking the Rebbe’s views on a specific questions in halacha, queries about kabbalistic topics, and also asking for his brocha.
The letters sent by the Rosh Yeshiva are also printed in Mibeis Hagenozim, S.B. Levine, Kehot 2009, pp. 88–98.
When we see the tremendous respect each of these Gedolim had for each other (even though they did NOT agree with each other and criticized each other’s ways), it magnifies my pain when the students of each these giants demonstrate a lack respect for the other Gadol.
thanks for not adding excessive exclamation and question marks. and also for keeping the emotion down. it makes the post more readable.
I noticed something interesting on all of these Chabad threads whenever someone wants to point out the great relationship that the Lubavitcher Rebbe had with other gedolim. It is always the other gadol that is saying something nice about his relationship with the rebbe. And it is almost always in some KHT publication. It is also always that the other gadol visited Crown Heights. How come you never see the rebbe saying anything nice about any of Klal Yisroel’s recognized gedolim? And how come he never visited any of them? If it is true that “we see the tremendous respect each of these Gedolim had for each other,” why do we never see the reciprocity?
To oot,
There is to point out that Rav Moshe wrote a teshuva to a shaylah by the rebbe
@rebbetzin eilu v’eilu is a holy Jewish value, except when one of the sides is Moshe Rabbeinu (ispashtusa d’Moshe bechdel dor). That’s the lesson we learn from Korach – he was a big talmid chucho vechu’, but when you argue on the Nossi you are nothing, you lose all maamad.
That’s the answer to OutOfTown’s question also – when we refer to the relationship the Rebbe Shlita has with talmidei chachomim and rabbonim, it’s not a shoveh beshoveh but a noisein and a mekabel.
Either way. This thread seems to have begun with a ridiculous attempt to say that when we in Lubavitch refer to certain people without titles, no disrespect is meant. Please.we all know that’s ridiculous.
I’m 98% sure this thread has actually turned into an argument between non-Lubavitchers and other non-Lubavitchers who are trolling and pretending to be Lubavitchers. Or, in Rebbitzin’s case, pretending to be a Lubavitcher who’s pretending to not be a Lubavitcher. Gah. This is all so confusing to follow, but it’s this kind of thread that makes the CR great.
TomimTihyeh,
You are either a false-flag troll or you are trying to set the world record for the number of ikkarei emunah denied in one thread.
Avram – you called a spade a spade. Tomim – shame on you. You disrespect your chassidus.
Rebetzin, Thank you
@ RGPANSN
What kool aid have you been drinking? Minchag oker Halacha is not a blanket principal to justify every belief or practice that has become widespread among a segment of the Jewish population.
@ TT
“That doesnt bring honor to Him”
Guess the Mods missed the capital H this time…
@ AIM
“You are either a false-flag troll…”
Wouldn’t that be nice. But when TT made his grand entrance on CS’s “don’t misunderstand us” thread even SH (begrudgingly and no doubt through gritted teeth) opined that TTs creds seem legit and that he is most likely the real deal.
@avram, which ikkarei emunah am I denying in that post, exactly?
Out of Towner – “It is also always that the other gadol visited Crown Heights. How come you never see the rebbe saying anything nice about any of Klal Yisroel’s recognized gedolim? And how come he never visited any of them? If it is true that “we see the tremendous respect each of these Gedolim had for each other,” why do we never see the reciprocity?”
Yes, you awaken memories. When Reb Moshe let know he will visit the Lubavitcher Rebbe, one mechutzif actually asked Reb Moshe why should he be going to the Rebbe, let the Rebbe come visit him! Reb Moshe turned in surprise and answered, I am going because I want to go.
Imagine for a minute that gedolim drop by your house. Imagine Reb Chaim shlita knocks on your door tonight to visit you. After he leaves, your neighbor Mrs Yenta comes with taynas to you: How come the gadol came you visit you while you never visited him?!
Is it your “fault” if the gadol decided to visit you?!
The Lubavitcher Rebbe never visited anyone (except a rare shiva call to Satmar and Bobov Rebbes), yet dozens upon dozens of Gedolim of all types visited him.
@rebbetzin, I disrespect my chassidus? How, exactly? My chassidus is what teaches me az a rebbe is doh nor einer. In fact, my religion in general teaches me that – remember Rashi? Tol mateh vehach al kodkodom, dabor echod ledor etc! My chassidus explains at great length the inyan of a Nossi, as was noted by many people in the Chabad threads. The only time they go off the rails is when they try to zetz ein silly things to mollify the misnagdim. But I do nothing to disrespect my chassidus, I only speak its truth.
Non Political – not a blanket but a pillow to rest on. Seriously, can you provide the exact guidelines of when halacha says “minhag oker halacha”? One thing is clear, a minhag (even of noshim tzidkoniyos) that has been kept by a segment of frum yidden for centuries, is called “kodesh” and c”v for someone to come along and mock it. Chazal have used the criteria of “go and see what Yidden have been doing” to decide halacha. Thi criteria has extended into Shulchan Aruch and Nosei Keilim to include even a minhag noshim (who might not be as learned as men). Which kool aid do you use? Make sure it is kosher.
Tomim – an ikur of emunah is to be mechabed talmidei chachomim. You are not absolved of this chiyuv just because a talmid chochom disagrees with your Rebbe. In klal yisroel there was always machlokes, but there was an ikur of emunah to respect talmidei chachomim.
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