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Kol Kevudah Bas Melech Pineemo.
On the other hand, with financial problems being rampant these days, and with kollel couples, women are required to work.
How can a woman fit the standard of “Kol Kevuda” and at the same time get out in the world to achieve a career or find a good job to support her family?
Please comment on how we can turn this controversy into a solid solution.
Keep to the dinim of tzinius. Do your work well – Don’t listen to loud music. Do not call men by their first names. In turn put a stop to men calling ladies by their first names. IMPORTANT: Do not have have conversations other than pertaining to work.
nameless, You both implicitly and explicitly answered your own query.
A woman’s career is in the home.
perhaps if more men actually worked for a living instead of kollel 24/7, you might not have the need for so many women to go outside of the home…. just a thought
heres another thought…some women actually need to work, and should not feel ashamed in any way for having to go to work. not every woman is “cut-out” for mommyhood 24/7. Its tantamount to saying evey one must be a doctor or a lawyer…some women may lose their minds staying at home all day…
Any woman who wants a career – kol hakavod. We live Boruch H’ in a generation where women have myriad career opportunities available to them.
EDITED
Actually there is another thread on the main page now that someone addressed that point. So forgive me for copying it here:
All Chazals, such as Im ain kemach ain torah, just means that if you have no food, you cannot learn. Other Chazals say that if you have no food and you try to learn anyway, you will end up having to steal to eat, and what good is that. None of this has anything to do with Kollel. If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.
Mrs (Ms.?) H (I’m avoiding the use of her first name) is absoilutly correct. Rules of tznius (which applies to both men and women)are esseintial. I work in a mixed office (gender and religion) and the frum people on the staff make every effort to keep to the title of “am kodosh”.
We need not hide under a rock, but at the same time, we need to be mindful of who we are
To Mezonos Maven:
That is all goood while you have no children in yeshiva/BY. Once you take a tuition break/reduction, most people (I imagine) don’t ask their rav what they must give up/ pay tuition before doing whatever it is, from a “treat” for the children to giving to other Mosdos (a famous point by I believe Rav Schwab) or supporting married children.
C”V, someone could be “Asid Litain Alayhem Es HaDin” for all of the teachers that get paid late (or not al all) due to the person who does not pay the tuition they should (even if it is not full).
To nameless: Kol Kavodah is a Maylah. Not paying the tuition you should/could (if you don’t pay full) if you had only tried (while following strict halacha) may very well be Gezel, both from the other parents and from the teachers. It may just be me (an old fuddy-duddy who does not think living off others is the way to go), but I don’t see the question. One side is almost vadai Issurim De’oraysa, the other not.
Of course, if you can pay tuition on only one salary, Kol Hakavod.
gavra, According to your argument, you should also be insisting that parents put their children who are over 13 years old to work, rather than taking a tuition break.
Ben Melech has a very good point, but it applies to bothe men & women. People should not work for their “career”, but for the output (they need money to do good thing x), which is worth their time over what they could be doing otherwise in their Avodas Hashem. Better yet, if the work is only to forward their ability to be an Oved Hashem, and is being done leshem shomayim it (the working) becomes an act of Avodas Hashem.
Mezonos Maven: They should ask a shaila about camp (or other) earnings. I believe the side that says not has a svorah that taking the money away from children who work to pay tuition teaches them that working hard doesn’t pay off (may have been a chinch roundtable, I don’t remember), which would apply here as well.
So the short answer is, all other things being equal, then yes. And I know of parents whose children work for the yeshiva (I believe) in lieu of tuition.
I think this a very serious discussion. In this day and age a lady may have to go out to work to supplement her husbands wages. She has to know the responsibility she carries by going out to work. It is important that she has her household duties organised. It is also important to realise that her husband is grateful for the effort she is putting in to the household. The husband may feel terribly guilty for not being able to bring in the full parnossoh required. In these cicumstances ladies remember kol kevoida – dont speak to other people build up your husbands confidence….
gavra, According to your argument, a parent should take his child (over age 13) out of school and put him to work rather than take a tuition break. A parent’s legal obligation to support his child ends at 13, so according to the argument you are advancing, the parent has no right to take a tuition break rather than finding his son a job and putting him to work (rather than sending him to school).
Ben Melech: actually, the Chofetz Chaim ran the grocery himself for many years. He used to keep it open until he had enough money for the day, then closed down and went to learn, so other stores could also make money.
estherh:
Just out of curiosity, if the wife/mother is supposed to be going out and working, why can’t the husband/father take care of the household?
Mezonos Maven: Never saw that in halacha, but perhaps you are correct. Please provide a Mekor that you have no responsibility of Talmud Torah or Lamdo Umnus after the age of 13, and then I will think about the question.
gavra, I don’t have the mekor at my fingertips, but it is halacha that a father’s obligation to support his son ends at 13. Let me know what you think and how you think it fits into your points about tuition breaks.
Ben Melech:
I wasn’t thinking that the husband should work, that is blasphemy in this day and age.
Since the father/husband is learning, why can’t he take out an hour or so every day and get the kids off to school/pick them up. And do a majority of the chores around the house.
EDITED
I’ll read this thread more carefully later. I can’t help but think though of a Rabbi Reisman shiur last year on galus, and how “the street” decides certain work etiquette (e.g. shaking hands, holiday parties).
The street’s decided. Women will work, even if the men are working. Most likely they need to just to make ends meet. There is a backlash even in the general world (i.e. the street) for more SAHM but more likely than not, women will work, even if only very part time.
We do need to get our heads on straight though. More to come.
Mezonos Maven: Chiyuv to support ends at age 5, I’ve quoted it before from a Gemorah in Kesubos. The flip side is that you are supposed to shame the parents into supporting their children (also the gemorah there), and I discussed it (or not) in another thread.
We are dealing with the chiyuv to teach, not support.
gavra, The tuition also pays, in good part, for the non-Jewish studies taught at Yeshiva’s. So perhaps you should be advocating that the children not be taught that, rather than the parents ask for a break on the tuition.
tzippi, I go to Rabbi Reisman’s shiur on occasion and can completely assure you he does not allow men shaking a woman’s hand in the office, nor does he encourage women working in an office where it is not absolutely essential.
The role of every frum person, male, female, single, married, parent, child whoever, is to always be growing in avodas hashem. That means something totally different to everyone. The goal of every frum person is the same, the means to achieve that goal is as different for everyone as people are different from each other.
mezonos maven- gavra at work-ben melech- the mishneh (avos 5-25) says; ” at five, you teach a child mikroh, at ten, mishneh, at thirteen mitzvos, at fifteen gemoro, at eighteen marriage, at twenty “lirdof”-to pursue a livelihood (yes- work)”
although today times have changed and the way of learning too(we certainly teach mishneh and gemoro much earlier, although the MaHaral was very unhappy about this), the general idea of the misheh is still with us. You learn till you become eligible for marriage (then eighteen,possibly a bit later today)and then he learns for two years and then, the young man should go out to work!!!!
this correct way of living is repeated many times in shas. kiddushin, of course, with the chiyuvim on the father, berochos- showing that you MUST work to feed yourself and other ways are NOT succesful and , of course, kesubos, where it is crystal clear that the husnad has obligations to his wife, that include feeding her and clothing her.
There are no chyuvim on the wife in that realm at all.
EDITED
MM- a) why would you do that and b) why would that lower the cost of school?
Each couple has to work this out for themselves with the help of their Rav, parents or other trusted friends whose advice they respect. No 2 couples are the same and neither are their circumstances. I think each couple has to assess their strengths and weaknesses, their talents and resources and try to use them in the best way to benefit their family and strengthen their bayis neeman. If they both have to work which is very common nowdays then they will need to think outside the box. Don’t think of the duties and Mens work and womens work, think of them as OUR work, OUR home. Also, be realistic about the standards you set for yourselves and each other. A husband and wife are a team not adversaries in a contest.
Mezonos Maven: Mah Inyan Shmita Eitzel Har Sinai??
We are dealing with the parents chiyuv to teach their children both torah & umnus (which I am still waiting for a Mekor for the Petur of 13+).
I actually think the parents may want to rethink their outlook on life & get a rav (or perhaps homeschool) if they feel that they have no way of not being Over the Issur of Gezaila.
And yes, if the parents wish, they can homeschool for the Limudayi Chol and pay less, if the school allows. The only thing that this has to do with the OP’s question is that it is a possible job for a wife in the home (homeschooling).
To Ben Melech (and GAW, who made this point), careers bichlal are a relatively new maaseh. Read Zalman’s Menorah (lovely book) to see the life of a man pursuing his “career.”
gavra_at_work:
There is also a gemarah that states that you are required to teach your child a trade.
Gavra – my understanding is that Rav Moshe held that the age until which one is obligated to support his children now reaches 17 or 18 or so – the 5 years old threshold from the gemorah was based on an assumption that children went to work at a young age and began earning money, hence they were no longer aniyim who required support – nowadays, however, children customarily reside with their parents (or are supported by them) through high school years – that is why ma’aser cannot be used to support a child past the age of 5 or 6
not a critique of any positions you’ve taken, I just wanted to add a note on what I learned Rav Moshe held
l’maiseh, I personally think that there are untold consequences and prices we will pay for the current situation – I’ll likely be stoned for saying so, but here are a few – (1) used to be schools could tap grandparents when parents could not pay full tuition, but now that grandparents are primary payers, there is no second well; (2) parents sending money to children but not saving for their own later years, placing strain on communal institutions that may need to care for them; (3) babies raised by day care providers instead of mothers (granted, two incomes are often necessary, but we are talking here about forgoing even the opportunity for a mother to raise her infant child on a daily basis).
I have a friend with a lot of tuition expenses. She looked at the possibility of getting a job. Because of where her husband’s income placed them in the tax bracket, if she had gotten a job, it would have pushed them in to the next bracket and they would have ended up paying more than she was making. So for her to get a job would have cost them money.
Before a woman gets a job, she should look at the tax ramifications, the amount she will have to pay in day care for her children, transportation costs to get to and from work, and any other expenses that she would not have if she didn’t work. In some cases, working just doesn’t pay.
telegrok: Thank you for your information. Would you happen to have it in print from Rav Moshe, or is it just a Kaballa (something you heard second hand)?
jewishandworking22: Thats what I mean by “Umnus”. I apologize for not translating into English (which is the website’s accepted mode of communication). The location of the quote is the last Blatt in Keddushin (from Bar Kapara).
haifagirl: Good point.
Telegrok:
I dont know this for certain, but I believe the psak of R’ Moshe was a direct answer to the question of whether one could use maaser money to pay tuition and his response was that since by law one must send his child to school until the age of (I thought it was 16 – but the poster here says 17-18) 17-18 then it is a chov which can not be paid with maaser money. Of course, it is always best to look this up in the Igros and not rely on my brief synopsis of it.
haifagirl: Your facts are obviously wrong. Being in a higher tax bracket does not mean you pay a higher amount of taxes on ALL the money you make. Rather, the amount that you make that is above that bracket is taxed at the higher amount. There is no way tax-wise that you will be paying more money in taxes if you make more money; you will only be paying a higher percentage on additional money you make.
Ben Melech- I challenge you to show a real situation where someone earning a salary ends up with a net of less money than someone earning a lower salary. I’m not talking about situations where child care, transportation and other attendant expense make working not worthwhile. I understand that happens. I’m talking about a situation where taxes and government programs alone end up giving the non-earner, or low earner more after tax income.
Oooppp: Take it up with her accountant. He crunched the numbers for her.
To get back to the point:
Has anyone here asked a non-nogayh Rav if they are allowed to not work (them or their spouses) and therefore ask for a tuition reduction?
gavra, Actually that isn’t the original point of this thread. 😉 Nevertheless, the far more typical case is both parents are working and STILL cannot afford the tuition.
Back to the accountant. Perhaps your friend should consult another one. Day Care expenses which are necessary so that she can go out to work, may be deductable (assuming a licensed day care is used). Perhaps claiming an additional deduction which will reduce witholdings is in order, so that she comes home with more of her paycheck, especially if they end up with a refund when filing their 1040. Just calculate what that number is so that you dont end up owing anything and the amount owed is as close to zero as possible. Its nice to get a refund, its nicer not to give the government an interest free loan for a year.
gavra: I saw the p’sak in a sefer, but I think it should have the cite there to the Igros Moshe, assuming the author relied upon a published matter and not a personal conversation
jphone: yes, that is precisely the issue that was addressed, whether one could use ma’aser for child-related expenses and the answer was as you relate
I went out to work after the hanhola sent my boys home for not paying tuition. They knew we were going through a sticky spot and really had not a penny to pay. Within the year we saw how each person suffered with family problems. (We did not wish it on them)
It taught us a lot. My husband and I sat down to prioritise what had to be done in the house and how we could help each other. It made a difficult time a lot easier…
To mezonos maven: I in no way meant to equate working with shaking hands etc.; I wasn’t as careful as I should have been in my writing, in a rush. I simply meant that there are realities that we can’t ignore. Women have been working for decades now.
And from what I see, I don’t know how one can make it one income unless that income has been incoming since day one. Many people leave kollel making LESS at entry level than they were able to cobble together in kollel. Not pashut.
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