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Wolf, regarding the 13 middot, he has on whom to rely
Thank you, Avi. That is *precisely* one of the reasons that I don’t give Tochacha. If I can’t be sure that I’m right and free of sin in any particular matter, how can I possibly rebuke others?
The Wolf
Wolf, who said that one must be free of sin? If that were true no one would ever be able to give tochacha. (Kohelet 7:20). the Torah does not give such mitzvot.
problem is too many people are afraid to give tochacha lest the person/friend not like them anymore.
for Hashem a person should not be afraid to do anything. you should be willing to give up your life for Hashem. even if it means losing business or friendship etc…
Wolf, who said that one must be free of sin? If that were true no one would ever be able to give tochacha. (Kohelet 7:20). the Torah does not give such mitzvot.
Avi,
I didn’t mean totally free from sin. That’s why I said “in any particular matter.” It would be hypocritical for a mechallel Shabbos like me to rebuke someone else on the violation of Shabbos prohibitions. On the other hand, were I not such an introvert, I might feel more comfortable rebuking someone for talking in shul since I’m very scrupulous about that.
The Wolf
Wolf: If you were not an introvert (and felt more comfortable rebuking someone for talking in shul since you’re very scrupulous about that) would you feel comfortable rebuking someone for eating non-kosher, since you’re very scrupulous about that too?
Wolf: If you were not an introvert (and felt more comfortable rebuking someone for talking in shul since you’re very scrupulous about that) would you feel comfortable rebuking someone for eating non-kosher, since you’re very scrupulous about that too?
Do I know that everything I’ve eaten is kosher? I *think* so, but I have no such guarantee to that fact. Heck, I eat chalav stam and I’ve heard more than once people state that “chalav stam is chalav treif.”
Nonetheless, despite that, I believe I’ve already answered the question in the negative. I cannot rebuke other people in person. I’m just not a confrontational person, and it causes me problems in other areas of my life. If I can’t even do so to stand up for myself, why do you think I’d be able to approach a perfect stranger and start telling him off to his face?
The Wolf
Wolf, I have deep respect for your candor and objectivity. I also identify with much of what you describe. Along with the sense of inadequacy and hypocrisy, I, too, am confrontation averse, and loathe the thought of telling a total stranger that he is doing the wrong thing.
When I described to my Rav something I had seen (the particular case involved an invalid manner of wearing Tefillin), he told me that I had an unequivocal obligation to inform the other person that he was doing the wrong thing, or that I would be held responsible for his wrongdoing. No amount of protest and revulsion could change this Psak.
The next time I witnessed someone doing the wrong thing, I forced myself to do what my Rav had said I must do, and was astounded to find that: 1) It was difficult, but not as hard as I had imagined, 2) The other person actually appreciated that I was trying to help him, and 3) Nobody attacked me for being the hypocrite that I am [other than myself]. I subsequently learned that it does not get easier to do (at least for me).
Please consider that your Tochacha is very valuable and important, and that you could potentially be included in the category of ???? ???? ????.
catch yourself: I think there is a difference in correcting something to do of an intrinsic, halachic nature like tefilin than giving tochahah for one’s behavior. I’m glad you had good experience this time, but I still would be hesitant to challenge a person’s behavior unless you were familiar enough with the person and that he would accept that rebuke.
Flatbusher, how and why are those different?
Not everything of a halachic nature prompts someone to give tochaha. Some areas are fuzzy, or there are various opinions on appropriateness, say in acceptable kashrus. In Flatbush, some people don’t hold by the Vaad, but someone who does not accept the Vaad sees a someone patronizing such a place may feel the need to give tochahah to such a person. Same for giving tochahcha dress, or spent their free time.
There is a chiyuv to give tochachah when a certain line is crossed, but I don’t see how you are differentiating between “intrinsic halachic nature” and “behavior”. I guess I’m not clear in how you’re using those terms.
Flatbusher/Wolf, how is it different giving tochacha to someone who puts on his tefilin incorrectly, so he should correct it now and in the future, and giving tochacha to someone else who you see eating something clearly treif, like a McDonald’s cheeseburger?
Someone who is putting on Tefillin incorrectly is probably more interested in doing the right thing than someone eating a cheeseburger at McDonalds. They have already started to do the right thing and need a little help.
The person eating the cheeseburger is not interested in doing the right thing as much, he knows what is right and chooses not to
mentsch1:
The Sefer Chinuch’s ruling to publicly embarrass someone who ignored the tochacha given them is obviously at the point where he already is a meizid, and no longer a shogeg, even before you embarrass him – since once you gave him the tochacha he’s aware his actions are sinful. Thus not embarrassing him will not prevent him from becoming a meizid.
Interesting thread. There is a quote from Sefer charedim quoted in perek lamed beis Tanya, that would clear up Apr of this.
The posuk says hocheiach tochiach es amisecha. Amisecha means your fellow, hence the mitzvah only applies to giving rebuke to someone on your level of yiras shomayim and Torah and mitzvos.
On this note, I heard a wonderful story lately, I’ll post it in the following post iyh
The Gemara in Eirachin 16b states that that one must continue to rebuke until the listener is about to hit him or curse him. The Gemara in Yevomos 65b states that just like it’s a mitzvah to say something that will be accepted, there is a mitzvah not to say something that won’t be accepted. The Ritva explains that when rebuking an individual, one must continue to do so until the individual hits or curses him, but when addressing a group, one should protest once and then he should not rebuke again if it will not be accepted.
The Alter Rebbe told this story :
One day gehennom burnt down. The malachim were thinking of building a bigger and better one, but then the tzaddikim complained that gan Eden will be outdated while gehennom is freshly renovated.
The malachim acceded to their point and decided to refurbish gan Eden, and make the old gan Eden the new gehennom.
One way of understanding this story is as follows:
Hashem wants us to do Torah and mitzvos, but it’s hard sometimes to overcome going along with the yetzer hara. So He created gan Eden and gehennom to keep us in line.In the generations before the Alter Rebbe there was allot of maggidim who would rouse the yidden to teshuva and becoming better people with their vivid descriptions of gehennom.
To be continued as this is long.
But by the Alter Rebbe’s time (and how much more so today) the fire and brimstone effect wore off, gehennom burnt down, and it wasn’t inspiring people anymore.
So they were thinking of making gehennom scarier, but the tzaddikim said that its not gonna help for long. Better idea to bring out the beauty of Torah and mitzvos, and how we have the best life possible, refurbish gan Eden.
Giving tochacha is an art . Aron Hakohen’s way is the model as to how it should be done.
“…..Sefer HaChinuch perek 239 that you should give someone tochacha privately and in a nice way; but if they don’t listen to you, then you should embarrass them in public so that they will do teshuvah…..”
Be wary of paskening such a sensitive issue by glancing in the good book.
Ask a rav and do soul searching before ; as per Yehuda & Tamar… from where Chazal learn ” It’s better to throw yourself in the fire……”So to answer should we give tochacha?
Yes if:
1) you are giving out of a sense of caring for the other, NOT to shtech someone out2) the person is on your spiritual level- amisecha
3) it is likely to be effective
You have to be careful with all the above because as the posuk hocheiach tochiach ends off- vlo sisa alav chet.
If your are certain of the above go right ahead.
If not, bring them closer by speaking in a positive uplifting manner and you’re likely to get a good result with no risks involved
One of my Rabbeinu told me, the best way to give tochecha in halachic matters, is by offering to learn those halachos with the person.
Is someone who has been mechallel shem shamayim b’farhesya allowed to give tochacha too? Also the fact is that some wo is mechallel shem shamayim loses his chelek in olam habah , does that play a role too?
From laskern:
The Rambam’s view Hilchos Daios (6,8) is that by Ben Adam Lamokam, if one does not listen when admonished privately , can be ashamed publicly. The son of the Shlah follows this ruling when it comes to talking in shul.
The Harav Abarbenel explains, when you admonish someone be careful of לא תשא עליו חטא don’t put the sin on him., but say people do this but not that “he” does it.
אל תווכח לץ פן ישנאך הוכיח חכם ויאהבך says the Slah Hakodash when you admonish someone do not tell him that he is a letz because he will end up hating you but if you tell him he is smart he will love you.
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