The real reason for the ban against chassidish women driving?

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Viewing 46 posts - 151 through 196 (of 196 total)
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  • #1086933
    Sam2
    Participant

    MDG: I made that same argument in my deleted comment. The problem is that that logic only holds up when the Psak is valid.

    a jew who cares: I trust my community Rov. And I also trust him to know that he’s not the Posek HaDor and doesn’t have a right to Pasken certain things.

    #1086934
    A jew who cares
    Participant

    “doesn’t have a right to Pasken certain things.”

    So you trust as long as he wouldn’t pasken anything that falls out of your comfort zone. Not sure if that can be called trust…

    #1086935
    Sam2
    Participant

    A jew who cares: I hope you agree that not every Shul or community Rav has a right to Pasken on life-and-death or Klal Yisrael policy issues.

    #1086936
    A jew who cares
    Participant

    I trust that if my Rav feels it isn’t within his scope to pasken regarding a certain issue, he will consult with others before doing so.

    Though a driving policy within a certain community is certainly not a life and death issue or a klal yisrael policy.

    (For the record: my Rav does allow women to drive.)

    #1086938
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Actually, driving can be a life or death issue.

    #1086939
    kj chusid
    Participant

    There’s something called gemach Hatzuleh for people that can’t afford rides to hospitals doctors etc and yes the local bus goes to walmart

    #1086940
    kj chusid
    Participant

    And if it’s only a lady going herself they send a goiyishe lady driver

    #1086941
    Mammele
    Participant

    Thanks KJC. Although this thread has kind of moved on I hope ZD realizes that despite being suburban, driving is not always a necessity if the community is proactive about finding solutions.

    #1086942
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Mammele as someone who grew up in the Suburbs and many times we could not afford a car, I am well aware of what its like not to have a car in the suburbs and its very difficult

    #1086943
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Most of those solutions involve driving.

    #1086944
    Joseph
    Participant

    KJC stated that KJ has various forms of public and private transportation they make available to residents that other suburban towns do not have.

    KJ is far better geared to provide its residents transportation than the vast majority of any other suburban area.

    KJ’s transportation infrastructure is more comparable to NYC’s public transportation than to Monsey’s.

    #1086945
    Mammele
    Participant

    Agreed, it’s difficult in the suburbs. But in KJ for women it’s the norm and as mentioned a lot has been done to make it easier for them – you admittedly didn’t grow up in KJ.

    #1086946
    Sam2
    Participant

    Wait, so if it’s not Tznius for women to drive why are we allowed to utilize non-Jewish women drivers?

    #1086947
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We can be meikil l’gabei amira l’akum.

    #1086948
    MDG
    Participant

    “MDG: I made that same argument in my deleted comment. The problem is that that logic only holds up when the Psak is valid.”

    1) Their rebbe is not my posek, but he is their posek. To them, his psak is valid.

    2) I don’t know about psak that socially motivated. Maybe there are guidelines for that.

    #1086949
    Mammele
    Participant

    Sam: I don’t quite get your question. We are talking about frum women using non Jewish female drivers. Obviously we Jews have higher standards of modesty.

    #1086950
    apushatayid
    Participant

    I cant believe how uncomfortable some people become, when the practices others adopt for themselves are brought up.

    #1086952

    apy – agreed, but why do practice they adopt for themselves have to end up in all of our newsstories?

    #1086953
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    apy – agreed, but why do practice they adopt for themselves have to end up in all of our newsstories?

    1: They are new. Had they been doing this for hundreds of years, if would not be newsworthy.

    2: Man bits Dog

    3: Comparisons of Ultra-Orthodox to Muslims/Taliban/ISIS.

    #1086954
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its amazing the same people who wonder why people are upset at Belz, have no problem condeming the people of Efrat. It should be their choice not anyone elses

    #1086955
    Joseph
    Participant

    Cars haven’t been around for hundreds of years. And Chasidic women hadn’t ever been widely licensed as drivers.

    They didn’t choose to put this story in the news. It was propagated by anti-semites, mostly of the Jewish religious-hating variety.

    #1086956
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    A jewish anti-semite is someone who disagrees with you.

    #1086957
    Sam2
    Participant

    Mammele: If it’s not Tznius, it’s not Tznius. We don’t have non-Jews sing or dance or parade around undressed for us. Nor do we have them do such things for women. If this is a non-Tznius activity, then why are we allowed to let a non-Jew do it for us?

    #1086958
    A jew who cares
    Participant

    For the same reason why Yeshiva World like to publish all the controversial news stories.

    #1086960
    A jew who cares
    Participant

    “If it’s not Tznius, it’s not Tznius. We don’t have non-Jews sing or dance or parade around undressed for us. Nor do we have them do such things for women. If this is a non-Tznius activity, then why are we allowed to let a non-Jew do it for us?”

    Many aspects of tznius don’t relate to non jews – e.g you are allowed to look at a non jewish lady whose hair is uncovered. And the nuances – are you against those who say that ladies skirts should be 4 inches below their knees even when that wouldn’t apply with regard to looking at non jews?

    These arguments have no sense to them.

    #1086961
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    it’s kinda funny how not liking the force or ways that some of the chassidish communities have shown up in the news lately makes us anti chassidish and anti torah. Maybe we love chassidim but we legitimately take a different stand on some of these things. Can you accept that? I can’t stand this attitude that I must not really be religious if i can disagree with the way things are being done in KJ or williamsburg or wherever in london this ban is. sheeesh.

    #1086962
    A jew who cares
    Participant

    Everyone accepts those who disagree respectfully with others views. But not if you bash them for it.

    #1086963
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    that is so far from true. so unfortunately far from true.

    #1086964
    A jew who cares
    Participant

    You obviously haven’t read this thread very well. Most people here are from communities where ladies drive so I’m not sure where you are coming from. Our only issue is the way people are attacking those do have this policy.

    #1086965
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    They didn’t choose to put this story in the news.

    No, Belz did something newsworthy by making a new Taliban-type rule. Had it been in place since the model T (or even 20 years ago), no one would have cared.

    #1086966
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “apy – agreed, but why do practice they adopt for themselves have to end up in all of our newsstories?”

    Good question. Probably better posed to those who run “news sites”.

    #1086967
    Joseph
    Participant

    Had it been in place since the model T (or even 20 years ago), no one would have cared.

    Belzer and other Chasidishe women have, as a general rule, not been driving since the advent of the Model T. And the rule not permitting it is over 20 years old. It surely ain’t anything new.

    #1086968
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    joseph – agreed. which is why i wonder about the sensationalism. i don’t think it only comes from the media, it seems (and i may be wrong) to be part of the presentation as well.

    #1086969
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Joe: So why the need for the big announcement? If this is already in place, then there would have been no mention of it.

    #1086970
    A jew who cares
    Participant

    You think they specially tried to get the media to attack them?

    #1086971
    Joseph
    Participant

    What big announcement? There was none. All that happened was that a tiny number of community members violated the rule. The community school sent a private letter only to the parent body saying the rule would be enforced. Then some anti-religious fellow sent a copy of the letter to a Jewish anti-religious publication which published it, after which the general media picked it up.

    #1086972
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    how did an anti religious fellow get a copy of a private letter sent privately between members of a private group?

    #1086973
    Joseph
    Participant

    I doubt the answer to that is known but it could have been any number of ways. An employee (the schools don’t only hire frum Jews), one of the folks who violated the rule may have been jilted by the enforcement and supplied the copy or it even may have been a discarded copy someone found.

    #1086974
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Sorry Joe, that is not what happened. From Jpost:

    In a letter sent out last week, the leading rabbis of the Belz community declared that female drivers fly in the face of “the traditional rules of modesty” expected in the hassidic camp. The letter also stated that beginning in August, children who are driven to school by their mothers may be banned from academic institutions.

    The letter claimed that as more mothers begin to drive their children to school, there has been an increase in “resentment among parents of pupils of our institutions.”

    If you read the letter, it says that this is a “new” Takanah.

    #1086975
    Joseph
    Participant

    The JPost isn’t a beacon of truth. Especially when they are reporting third-hand news from halfway around the world. The rule has been (very) long standing. This fact isn’t even news to anyone slightly familiar with Belz and other Chasidic communities. The only “new” thing was the need to enforce the longstanding rule. (Hence the notification that it would be enforced with the stated penalty beginning the aforementioned month.)

    #1086976
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The JPost isn’t a beacon of truth. Especially when they are reporting third-hand news from halfway around the world. The rule has been (very) long standing. This fact isn’t even news to anyone slightly familiar with Belz and other Chasidic communities. The only “new” thing was the need to enforce the longstanding rule. (Hence the notification that it would be enforced with the stated penalty beginning the aforementioned month.)

    If its not in the Yated, its not news

    #1086977
    Mammele
    Participant

    ZD: Funny, you just said something similar in another thread about an article I recommended instead of debating it on its merits…

    At least Joseph is telling us why it’s not believable — it’s common knowledge Belze Chasidish women don’t drive.

    #1086978
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Unfortuantly on the internet the line between Blogs and News sites can be very blurry and even legitimate news sites many times have a blog area (And this can be an area for abuse)

    #1086979
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Many “news” sites are actually blogs with the way editors report what they want, slanting it it the way they see fit via the photos they use or they headlines they write.

    #1086980
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There was a scammer who used a blog area of CNN praising his product and then advertised that his product was endorsed by CNN.

    You always have to be aware which are more blog than news

    #1086981
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    It seems you should consider your own advice.

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