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“however people PRAISE rightis chumras and dont realize they can just as easily cause people to go off.”
Sure, if people practice chumras in a vaccuum they are meaningless. They are a part of an overall way of life. We are nitpicking one small part of it.
APY: Social constructs can create positive results, such as Achdus. It just isn’t Halacha.
Its not so easy to pack up an leave.
If someones father and grandfather were Belz , According to Halacha you are not allowed to change Minhagim if you disagree with your Posek.
But if you do it anyway you are likely to have your kids thrown out of school and your yourself excomunted from your family and friends
All because you wanted to drive your kids to scholl
Apushatayid, shkoyach for your sensible posts on this. I don’t have much to add, other than saying that anyone who thinks we can contemplate this being abusive loses a lot of credibility in the seichel department.
ZD. I think it is pointless to discuss a single hanhaga of a group of people, when taken by itself, might seems pointless or silly. When this hanhaga is factored into the overall daily hanhagos of this community, it is not pointless, silly and certainly not abusive (for them). Do members of this community appear to be bullied, forced, coerced or otherwise threatened to do anything? Are they asking you to take on this or any of their hanhagos? Does the Rav of this community strike you as an abusive cult leader? Why does it bother you or anyone else that they adopted this hanhaga? I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Social contructs can also create negative result
For example what about a woman who is divorced , widow or whose husband cannot drive for whatever reason (Maybe even temporary). Should she be ostracized. Maybe she doesnt want to tell the whole community that her husband broke his leg or is in the hospital for a private matter
APY
Why does it bother anyone here what the RCA does??
Are they asking you to follow any of the Hanahgos, Are they an abusive cult.
You still havent answered my question why those who critize some more modern Rabbis are unwilling to take the heat themselves
Just to clarify, I don’t think this is abusive. I just don’t think that we can ignore something on the excuse of it’s not our community.
Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevin Zeh L-Zeh
GAW: But they are claiming that this is Halachah, not social construct.
a mamin: There are plenty of Chassiduses that don’t let you leave, too. The antisemitic sections of the media love telling the stories where people have trouble leaving. They exaggerate them, certainly. But not everyone can leave if they want.
a jew who cares and others: I have seen many people, some of whom are from very Yeshivish communities, who see a community-wide ban on women driving as abusive.
There are plenty of Chassiduses that don’t let you leave, too.
They don’t have soldiers at the gates of New Square or Williamsburg refusing exit to any party. Anyone can leave. Kvetching that it is socially difficult to leave is not a matter of them being unable. (And it is good that it is socially much easier to remain with the status quo.)
Definition of abusive:
: using harsh and insulting language
: using or involving physical violence or emotional cruelty
Not driving = emotional cruelty? Yeah right.
A jew who cares, do you drive?
Here’s an question I was wondering. To all woman of the CR, how would you feel if all your life you’ve been driving, and suddenly you were told by your rav that you can’t?
Why, Matan, was there a sudden change of policy?
I also have a question for the women of the CR. What if all your life you did melachah on Shabbos, and suddenly, your rav told you that you couldn’t? How would you feel?
Another question for the women: how would you feel if you didn’t dress tznius or cover your hair, and suddenly your rav told you that you have to?
Just to be fair to the men, how would you feel if, after living with a free schedule your whole life, suddenly your rav told you that you need to daven three times a day and put on tallis and tefillin every morning?
DY, how would you feel if all your life you’ve been keeping your money in a wallet, and suddenly you were told by your rav that you can’t?
You are missing my point.
The answer, by the way, is puzzled.
The last few comments are sacastic
However they do make a serious point, what would you do if you were doing something all your life and other frum yidden did the same same and all of a sudden just your rav forbade it
We need to protest the controlling communities that prohibit cholov stam and abusively deny their members the joys of Ben & Jerrys, M&Ms and the low cost of OU-D milk that other frum halachic-abiding communities permit.
What if you were drinking cholov stam all your life when your Rov told you that you should not do so?
The difference between a legitimate Halachic opinion and holding by a very minor Daas Yachid is that it is wrong. So yes, if Chalav Stam was an incredibly minority opinion that no one held like, then it would be wrong to force people to hold like it and probably Assur to do so. Since it’s a relatively mainstream opinion, that’s fine.
This is not Davening, or Tznius, or Chalav Stam. This is an incredibly Mechudash Shittah that doesn’t make any sense in practical Halachic terms. R’ Vosner was entitled to an opinion. Random Rabbonim of communities are not, especially in an area such as this.
A mora d’asra or community posek surely has the right and obligation to rule on halachas and hanhagos for his kehilla. Many of these communities are very large in their own right. And this particular hanhaga is very far from being only practiced in small groups. It his adhered to by large kehillas in America, Europe and especially in Eretz Yisroel. And surely relying on the Posek HaDor Hagaon Harav Vozner is a strong basis.
And it has already been explained how it certainly can be reasonably extrapolated from the S”A on Kol Kevuda (which is a tznius issue) as well as the woman wagon driver issue.
Sam: You seem to be taking it more personally than logically. These women were never told it’s okay to drive. It’s not some bolt of lighting out of nowhere ban, taking away an age old right. It was just something that was apparently never enforced to this degree because it was self understood. Nowadays with the growth of our communities rules need to unfortunately be set in stone for them to stick, as among so many people there are always “ober chachachim” that challenge everything and contribute to the yeridas hadoros.
Look around you at the secular public and you’ll realize how true this is especially in regards to modesty. Or better yet don’t look. The dropping of standards happened relatively quickly because individual women decided they can wear A or B or remove C and D and no one can deny them the right to “self-expression”.
Tznius is not black and white like many other halachos, so you taking issue with something you don’t understand and were brought up differently is understandable. What I don’t understand is your denying others the right to enforce their own community’s standard.
Let’s say for example Satmar, following the Chasam Sofer’s ruling, decides that women who wear their own hair beneath their head covering — a minority “prohibition” — their children can’t be allowed into Satmar schools, would you be also be up in arms? Well, I don’t know if it’s the case or not but it would make sense for them since it’s one of the principles of Satmar, even if to you it seems alien.
Most frum schools have rules for the parents, whether they like it or not…
GAW: But they are claiming that this is Halachah, not social construct.
No, Joseph claimed it was Halacha. He is wrong.
The “Neshei Belz” said that it is to avoid possible situations of Kaas and Nivul Peh. There is certainly no halachic basis for making up out of thin air such a middos-type action, but if they find that to be socially appealing to their sub-sect, who am I to complain?
Does anyone else see the irony when Joseph calls Rav Wosner the Posek Hador when it comes to women driving and posts this on the internet which Rav Wosner personally banned in public at the internet Asifa a few years ago.
This is Yeshiva world, not the internet.
How else could they post pictures of the Bochurim’s Asifa AGAINST internet?
ZD, only ironic if you mistranslate the term “posek hador” as “pope”.
“For example what about a woman who is divorced …….”
Its nice to know you care. Perhaps reach out to the community leaders to find out how they deal with this situation.
“Kol Bnei Yisroel Arevin Zeh L-Zeh”
Then instead of mocking and ridiculing a practice people have accepted upon themselves that they believe will improve their level of yiddishkeit, appluad them and encourage them!
“some of whom are from very Yeshivish communities,”
We are discussing a particular community of a particular chassidus. We are not discussing “very frum yeshivish communities” that do differently than this chassidic group. Each has its own manhigim that they follow. As do you. Follow yours. dont mock theirs.
“To all woman of the CR, how would you feel if all your life you’ve been driving, and suddenly you were told by your rav that you can’t?”
Like most things in life, it will take getting used to. Even the yidden in the midbar complained Zacharnu es hadaga asher nochalnu bimitrayim, despite the mann.
“and holding by a very minor Daas Yachid is that it is wrong.”
What is the difference between a major and minor daas yochid?
“The “Neshei Belz” said that it is to avoid possible situations of Kaas and Nivul Peh.”
This is the first I am hearing of this, but if true, do you believe that driving in stressful situations does not cause anger or worse, people to say things they later regret? Nivul peh does not only mean words such as #^&^%$% and (!**#&#.
“Since it’s a relatively mainstream opinion, that’s fine.”
The opinion is accepted by the mainstream, but I would venture to guess that more poskim disagreed with the psak. This is entirely besides the point though.
This is the first I am hearing of this, but if true, do you believe that driving in stressful situations does not cause anger or worse, people to say things they later regret? Nivul peh does not only mean words such as #^&^%$% and (!**#&#.
It was stated by the OP.
Joseph I was at the internet Asifa at Citifield (actually I was in the Tennis Stadium) and he gave a blanket banning with no leeway
I was there too. And they gave out a leaflet at the asifa describing how to get filters. And they set up TAG at the asifa to help people filter. And Rav Vozner himself after the asifa said it must be used with a filter. The above is a direct quote from Rav Vozner saying to use a filter.
Joseph – Did He say it Ex Cathedra while wearing the Annulus Piscatoris (and sealing it with such)? If not then you know it doesn’t count.
🙂
Personally, a ban against women driving would not fit in with my life and values, BUT it fits in well with others.
If you tell the women of Belz that they are being restricted by a patriarchal and controlling leadership, they very well may say that’s what they want. They feel comfortable that way.
The only problem that I have is if such bans are taken as “halacha” or such bans are used to ostracize or condescend.
Besalel, because many of us are not against lev tahor just because they’re frummer than us, but rather, for reasons of substance.
There a difference between a group and a cult. There may be some grey area and overlap, but it seems to me that Lev Tahor fits the definition of a cult more than a group.
lev tahor and other burka women
Moving the goalposts? Who said anything about “other burka women”?
There are Burka women in Geula, I dont know which group they are from
MDG: Ah, and what about the Belz women who believe in their religion but feel the driving ban is patriarchal oppression? (I know secondhand of two individuals.)
What about a member of a community which prohibits cholov stam and he think that ban is patriarchal oppression?
They would probably eat the chalav stam in private.
If their posek rules it treif, it is no better than them drinking non-kosher gentile wine in private.
In kj it’s relatively easy to get around for ladies theres a local bus and multiple car services (I was asked on another thread to mix in )
If their posek says it’s treif and it isn’t, it is not rea
Thanks KJC.
Is there bus transportation to the mall as well? What about transportation to the medical center & supermarkets — who offers free rides — and are they shared or not?
And finally ZD was concerned about yichud when a woman is using a car service and the driver needs to travel through unpopulated roads, is that a valid concern?
Thanks again.
“MDG: Ah, and what about the Belz women who believe in their religion but feel the driving ban is patriarchal oppression? (I know secondhand of two individuals.) “
In most any group, one has to give up something to be part of that group. It’s the tradeoff. Each person has to do their cheshbon on what the give up versus what they get.
What can such women do?
* Follow the rules begrudgingly
* Ignore the rules and hope to not get caught or punished.
* Leave the group (i.e. their cheshbon says it’s not worth it)
“Random Rabbonim of communities are not”
You don’t even have basic trust in your own Rav? How sad…
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