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DY, I wrote “Violating dina demalchusa dina for a questionable chumra is irrational. Making it more difficult for some mothers to accomplish their responsibilities when they are already nshei chayil binding the community together is illogical. And I find the way that the message was finessed and then walked back to be dishonest.”
Though I clearly do not agree with R Vosner’s take, the examples I gave for illogical, irrational, and dishonest were all about the application.
If one accepts R’ Vosner’s take that it’s a gross violation of tznius, the application, even if one could hypothesize that it would change the specific psak, cannot be called irrational, illogical, or be called dishonest to present as tznius.
So, no matter how you try to soften it, you are still essentially saying it about R’ Vosner.
Although I believe R’ Vosner may have the only written teshuvah against it, it should be pointed out that each chassidus has its own poskim, and they aren’t beholden to R’ Vosner. The fact that several are against women driving tells me that his opinion is by no means that of a daas yochid.
yichusdik: It is not against the law (dina d’malchusa) in England for women to choose not to drive or for a religious community to institute a rule for its religious members not to drive. Even the education minister who didn’t like it didn’t say otherwise. (She was upset that the schools were enforcing it; but even that she has no law to stand on other than vague “human rights” laws that she was speculating about.)
Furthermore, if the law was made that shechita was illegal, I’d expect you to be the first railing against the “chillul Hashem” shochtim are making by not stunning the animals first thus violating dina d’maclhusa. Same if France outlaws wearing a yarmulka in public. You’d be the first denouncing the “c”H” those wearing a yarmulka are making.
Next on the chopping block will the laws against bris mila once the “intact” movement gains legal traction, as they have in Europe and almost did in San Francisco. They just finished protesting in Florida against a father who dared to want to have his own son circumcised.
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DY: Among the major Poskim in Klal Yisrael, R’ Vosner stands alone on this.
And the T’shuvah is very bare and difficult to understand. I would have loved to have asked him about this while he was alive, but if I had to guess he was told stories of inappropriate activities between driving instructors and students (which presumably happened) and that was where the Issur came from.
i think irrational and illogical in applying the law in london in 2015 is appropriate. in any event, i think the way it evolved shows the fallacy in the reasoning in the first instance. the poskim figured the women will sit home but that is not practical nor will that ever happen, BH. instead, there are teams of male cab drivers who take these women around. im sure thats not what they had in mind. i spent a considerable amount of time in KY and NS and this is exactly what takes place there. a situation which is irrational and illogical. this is a chumra that not only ein yecholim lamoid buh but will cause resentment and a chillul hashem. they need to back down.
DaasYochid –
1: Now that we have agreed that there are legitimate opinions on both sides, what would prompt a sub sect of Chassidus (or any other group) to all of the sudden change their minds regarding whom they want to follow?
2: From the OP’s quote, the reason they bring is not from the “Penimah” aspect, but rather the “Bas Melech” aspect. I think many would be more open to accepting their refinement (even though the Queen is known to drive on occasion) over their submissiveness.
I suppose that since different communities have different standards, then what it comes down to is different circumstances.
If your women are frivolous and would abuse the driving privilege so that they could do a lot of shopping and socializing, then it’s better if they don’t drive.
If your women are responsible and would use the driving privilege so that they could relieve their men of the need to drive them everyplace (or pay for car services) in order to do worthwhile things, then it’s better if they do drive.
ZD: Kiryas Yoel, though somewhat suburban is a walkable community with sidewalks, unlike typical American suburban communities.
And I believe supermarkets offer free car service trips (not sure if both ways) to shop there. The car service companies employ Heimish drivers. So women take advantage and combine all their shopping, not just for groceries. The medical center may have something similar — perhaps someone can enlighten us to the specifics.
Kiryas Yoel also has a shuttle bus system.
And women group up to visit the Woodbury Common shopping mall to save on car fare.
Many men in Kiryas Yoel don’t drive either and manage.
The community is set up better than many others because driving is not expected, which saves on costs, traffic and pollution.
And no one is held prisoner in their home.
As someone who grew up in the Suburbs I can tell you the KJ is not better than the other suburbs. KJ is not as walkable, It seemed easily over a mile on a hilly road from the end of it to the small shopping center near the entrance and the supermarket there was quite small unlike normal supermarkets.
And the hemish drivers are still males, so the women really are in Yichud with a male
It depends where you live. If you live a half an hour drive from the nearest supermarket than yes, women drive. If you live in a bigger city I think everyone should speak to their Rav and their spuse.
If you are really interested, go find out why there is a ban from a rabbi. Not a bunch of weirdo’s online.
I find it very hard to understand how driving a wagon and car can be equated. There are several fundamental differences. Wagon drivers sit outside the vehicle, open to the entire street. They get spattered with mud and clothing gets blown with the wind when driving at high speeds. It was also usually part of the job to take care of the horse as well.
Car drivers sit inside along with the passengers, are protected from wind to the same degree, and don’t generally do dirty work. Early cars needed to be started with a crank on the outside, so that was a tznius concern. Women starting a car was something very noticeable. Cars of today are vastly different.
ZD: granted, because it’s hilly and sometimes cold etc. walking is not always easy. My point was that there are options, one of them walking, and it’s not as bleak as it may seem to the misinformed. And walking is healthy exercise, which you should be all for, since you love to complain about unhealthy “Ashkenazi Jewish” food and lack of exercise.
What exactly does “in yichud” mean? Do you mean violating yichud or simply in one car with a man? Traveling during daylight hours with no darkly tinted windows in a populated area alone with a man does not constitute yichud.
So perhaps you think it inappropriate despite it being okay halachikally. Then maybe you can understand where the Rabbonim are coming from when “banning” female driving. They consider that inappropriate for reasons of tznius despite perhaps seeming technically okay
Incidentally, if you don’t mind my prying — you can choose not to answer — did you grow up in KJ?
Sam, as far as we know, yes. But there are some very great talmidei chachamim who haven’t printed seforim.
If I had to guess, I would guess differently. I’m not posting it, though.
I think Mammele makes an excellent point about convenience. I know people who don’t drive, and they’ve found a way to manage, although I personally can’t imagine how I’d manage without two cars.
Certainly, in a community in which people (women, in this discussion) don’t drive, managing is easier than we drivibg families perceive.
I did not grow up in KJ, I am not chassidish. I have been there quite a few times, We sometimes go to Woodbury common and if we are hungry we stop in KJ for food so thats why I am familiar with the area.
I happen to like walking, I like living in a place where I can walk, but also have the option to drive (Needed when carrying heavy things like groceries or paint).
In a Car the driver can drive where ever he wants even in the daytime, there are places even in the daytime that are pretty empty. You certainly here plenty of stories of Cab drivers driving off course, I personally hate going into a cab and will only go if absolutly nessasary which is very rare (Maybe once or twice a year)
Its fairly easy to live without a car in williamsburg or Borough Park (in fact a car there can be a nuisance), however KJ is not like Williamsburgh at all
Question: With the advent of Google’s Driverless cars, would a woman be allowed to “tell it” where to go, but not engage in the act of driving?
Similarly, if a woman was hired to be a chauffeur, would that be allowed for Parnassah as she is not driving for herself?
ZD: Funny, we also stop in KJ on the way home from visiting day. You must not have been there in a long time because the supermarkets are massive!
As far as women driving or not in Chasidic communities, its no ones business. Who’s pointing the gun at you or your wife and telling her not to drive? If you don’t belong to that Chasidus , you can choose who you listen to.
Besides , all the comments here, based on stupidity of why its “not tzniusdig NOT to drive.” Everyone should listen to their local Rav or Rebbe.
As far as women driving or not in Chasidic communities, its no ones business. Who’s pointing the gun at you or your wife and telling her not to drive? If you don’t belong to that Chasidus , you can choose who you listen to.
Then take your own advice and dont tell the more modern communities how to act either, It goes both ways. If one feels they must give chizuk to the more modern commuities , you must expect the more modern communties to give it back when they see something wrong
The Supermarket in the shopping center by entrance to KJ to not massive at all, its a similar size to ones in Brooklyn. Supermarkets in Brooklyn arent that big. There is a Stop and Shop (or maybe walbaums) (I think) across the street (or near) woodbury common , that is what I would call a massive supermarket
ZD: In what way was I telling anyone how to act, besides minding your own business?
Ah, Joseph. You know, with access to every single post I ever made here, you might have been able to see my perspectives instead of assuming them. But, given that its apparently a valid discussion tactic by you to denigrate someone’s observance and be yotze laaz on their opinions regarding ikkarei emunah, I shouldn’t be at all surprised by your clearly intimate and well researched knowledge of my opinions regarding Shchita, wearing a head covering, or mila.
Aside from your puerile attempt at being motzi shem ra, you hit the double double with a straw man argument too. congratulations. Women aren’t being and shouldn’t be forced to drive. If they choose not to, no problem. But their families should never be extorted into obedience by the exclusion or expulsion of their children from school because they are driving their kids in exactly the same way that was muttar a month ago but is apparently assur now. Dina Demalchusa Dina comes in there as well.
DY, I’m saying that I disagree with R’ Vosner’s perspective, but well beyond that disagreement I am disgusted by the actions taken by those who are leveraging it in a way that doesn’t seem to abide by local law, that “criminalizes” something that was halachically valid a month earlier without explaining the halachic reason for the change OR explains the halachic reason why it was OK a month earlier but is not now. I am deeply dismayed by actions taken by Belz that commits psychological and emotional violence on its own community members (call it blackmail, extortion, it doesn’t matter) by threatening to ostracize their innocent offspring if the diktat is not observed.
If you, however, wish to see a different approach in my words, that goes beyond simply disagreeing with R Vosner’s perspective, so be it. I just made 3 attempts to convince you otherwise. I’m not making a fourth.
This thread was stupid from its opening sentence down to the last thing written (including my own for responding to stupidity). Nobody is asking anyone to adopt the hanhagos of a small chassidishe community in England. If they say its because of tznius, then so be it. Feel free to disagree and give your wife/daughter/mother driving lessons and facilitate their getting a drivers license.
I give all those who are bothered by this hanhaga a bracha, this should be the biggest thing that bothers you, your entire life.
OOHMEIN!!!
In the arena of Halacha, daas yochid carries no weight.
I’m not loving this thread too much either…
And I’m taking apy’s bracha even though this doesn’t bother me all that much. Amen, thanks.
I’m not loving this thread too much either…
Why? You certainly seem to agree with talmidchochom that, “In the arena of Halacha, daas yochid carries no weight.”
🙂
a mamin and apushatayid: I’m not saying it’s relevant in this case, but “it’s none of your business” isn’t an option. If people believe this is an actually untenable Shittah, they have a right to call out. If a major Posek of a tiny Chassidish community advocated beating wives to enforce Tznius, it would be wrong of us to not be up in arms. That’s obviously an extreme case. But if people view a ban on driving as abusive, they have a moral imperative to mention it.
Sam2: ” I’m not saying it’s relevant in this case, but “it’s none of your business” isn’t an option. If people believe this is an actually untenable Shittah, they have a right to call out.”
You don’t seem to apply this logic (or like it) when others apply it to Modern Orthodox “shittas”. (Official ones.)
Zahavasdad: ‘perhaps then the men should leave Kollel and go out and work so the women can stay at home’
In these communities the wife does usually stay home and the man does usually work.
Joseph: Elaborate, please? I have never claimed that everyone agrees with all that everyone does. Only defended people from improperly-placed attacks. Also, it’s a lot easier to say “Yeish Al Mi Lismoch” in Bein Adam LaMakoms than Bein Adam LaChaveiros.
“Who is on the proper hashkafic level today to make up or impose chumros today?”
“If people believe this is an actually untenable Shittah, they have a right to call out.”
This is the issue here. It is a hanhaga that a particular community has imposed upon itself. It makes no claims that this is the halacha. It imposes this hanhaga on nobody outside the community, and quite frankly I doubt anyone within the community sees it as an imposition.Why do you claim it is untenable? Who said it is? For you perhaps this is an imposition and a situation that is untenable (with all its dictionary definitions), but, as an outsider to this community it doesnt have any bearing on your life one way or another, so why do you care?
“It’s none of your business” isn’t an option.”
Please explain why this isnt an option. This has absolutely no bearing on your life and quite frankly the hanhagos this community accepts upon itself is none of your business. It becomes your business when they make the claims that this is the accepted practice among those jews who follow the shulchan aruch, and those who dont adopt this practice are in violation of the shulchan aruch. They have not made such a claim, so, it is none of anyones business.
”But if people view a ban on driving as abusive”
don’t be ridiculous
apushatayid: Did you see my analogy? Would that also be none of anyone’s business?
Please explain why this isnt an option. This has absolutely no bearing on your life and quite frankly the hanhagos this community accepts upon itself is none of your business. It becomes your business when they make the claims that this is the accepted practice among those jews who follow the shulchan aruch, and those who dont adopt this practice are in violation of the shulchan aruch. They have not made such a claim, so, it is none of anyones business.
Today is a Minhag, tomorrow it becomes “Halacha” and reason not to give people Aliyot and other things and children banned from schools etc
Please explain why this isnt an option. This has absolutely no bearing on your life and quite frankly the hanhagos this community accepts upon itself is none of your business. It becomes your business when they make the claims that this is the accepted practice among those jews who follow the shulchan aruch, and those who dont adopt this practice are in violation of the shulchan aruch. They have not made such a claim, so, it is none of anyones business.
+1!
Today is a Minhag, tomorrow it becomes “Halacha” and reason not to give people Aliyot and other things and children banned from schools etc
People are banned today for minhagim such as wearing a spodik vs. a Straimel. You have the choice not to attend those minyanim.
I have a friend who once was thrown out of a (regular shul) minyan because he didn’t have a Hat & Jacket for davening. The people who make those rules will have to answer to God, not you.
I’m kinda torn on this one. I agree completely that it’s none of our business. Completely.
But on the other hand there have been waaaay too many news stories about those types of things spilling over into expectations of the secular world in not pretty ways. (such as re-arranging airplane passengers to meet your wants, for one).
If you could promise me that this wouldn’t blow up into some chillul Hashem, unfair demands on the outside public or even people within the community who disagree being ostracized/mistreated as if they were desecrating a halacha (or those inside being raised to believe that this is a halacha then I’d be fine with it.
So these stories do set my teeth on edge but I also agree that it isn’t about us. Unless it’s made to be.
People are banned today for minhagim such as wearing a spodik vs. a Straimel. You have the choice not to attend those minyanim.
I have a friend who once was thrown out of a (regular shul) minyan because he didn’t have a Hat & Jacket for davening. The people who make those rules will have to answer to God, not you
And I can assure you that there are some people when kicked out of a Kehila or shul for not conforming to some “Chumra” decide its all a farce ‘Ruled by Rabbis” and go OTD . I have heard people say this drove them away.
ZD – agreed, pretty much. I have seen more than a handful of kids who were OTD complain about the blurry line between halacha, minhag and personal preference. It is a serious concern across the board.
ZD: You are not going to be able to confront and push back everyone’s crazy minhag. They, once again, will have to answer to God. You have to teach your children (and even those here) that it is not what God wants from us, but rather what a few people decided to do, and it is not related to Judaism (just like a Spodik).
apushatayid: What about a group like Lev Tahor? They make all their woman and daughters wear burkas, a clear abuse and distortion of halacha? Should we not protest?
The idea of Gedarim is supposedly to prevent people from straying
Its very easy here for people to condem leftist leaning halacha claiming its straying, however people PRAISE rightis chumras and dont realize they can just as easily cause people to go off.
I have certainly seen people here condem actions in Teaneck or the 5 towns when they dont live there and have nothing to do with those communtities.
MATAN 1: You are looking to start an explosion? How can you compare that to this? Give me a break, that’s clearly indisputably cult like. In most Chasidis women do not drive, and no one forces you to follow your chasidus, if you want to leave you are free to do so in most any chasidus that I know of!
apushatayid: What about a group like the Taliban? They make all their woman and daughters wear burkas, a clear abuse and distortion of Shariah? Should we not protest?
The answer is that we disassociate ourselves from them, not protest. They are just like the Taliban, the Peoples Temple, Raelism, or any other cult, so they have nothing to do with us.
Granted the line is not always clear, but Belz is on our side, and Helbrans is without question on the other.
The idea of Gedarim is supposedly to prevent people from straying
This is NOT a geder. This is a social construct unrelated to Halacha.
Gavra, these are Jewish woman and children being abused! How can we not protest Lev Tahor?
Like Sam said, if people view a ban on driving as abusive, we have to protest. I’m not saying this is abusive, but don’t just automatically say live and let live.
“Did you see my analogy?”
It has nothing to do with a community of women not driving.
“Today is a Minhag, tomorrow it becomes “Halacha” and reason not to give people Aliyot and other things and children banned from schools etc”
So, now you are a navi?
“Should we not protest?”
Is it abusive? Is a hanhaga not to drive abusive? Is anyone in this community not free to move elsewhere if they wish to drive? You are comparing apples and ptcha.
“This is a social construct unrelated to Halacha.”
Not every hanhaga is practiced to avoid violating a halacha. Some hanhagos are practiced to elevate onesself. You might disagree that this hanhaga does such a thing, but dont knock, or worse, attack as baseless and stupid those that take on such a hanhaga.
“apushatayid: What about a group like the Taliban?”
Are you comparing this Belz community to the Taliban?
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