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Dear Som,
Do you agree that this is not a major issue for our community? About the transgender employee for the religious institution. Scenario one. Competent janitor. A lot of the janitors in yeshivos today, are odd characters. One yeshiva used do have a janitor that was a former priest who had jail time for murder! Scenario two. Competent maggid shuir. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. If all our mosdos would do serious background checks for all employees, we would avoid these issues. And some other ones.@someone, hate to break it to you, but this a ruling of a secular jurisprudence system, they are not paskining halachah, they are very separate and distinct. Frankly I doubt if Judge Sotomayor or Roberts ever hear of the Malbim and rightfully could not care less what his opinion is.
If you have a dispute with a yid that belong is bais din, and frankly I get sick when I see two yidden sue in civil court, in the case of Bostock he was not Jewish and nor were the elected officials of Clayton County.My guess is about 2/3rds of the male flight attendants are gay therefore I should stop flying or just not be hyper focused on other peoples sexuality.
I am a Chasidisher Yingerman who works outside the daled amos of Monsey, I have worked with Gays, Lesbians, Bi and Trans and found them to be competent employees who just do the job and go home.To’eiva is, plain and simple, one of the few things that seems to cause HKBH to act with force against the world. That is the concern I am raising: Going down this road will seemingly lead to some very bad outcomes for society. Since we live in this society, we will experience whatever consequences occur and we should not expect them to be enjoyable.
So, it’s your argument that my failure to yell at my gay co-workers is causing the destruction of the world?
(Mind you, I always knew the world was a worse place with me in it, but now I have even more basis for it.)
The Wolf
@someone, Hashem did not appoint us to be the world morality police, maybe its because I have more exposure to the outside world that I understand birchas hascharch when I say asher boucher bonu me kol hoahamim,
Our job is to lead moral lives and not worry about yinnim. The Aybisher has his chesbonis and he does not need any self appointed help, let Him worry about the man wearing a dress and renting me a car or the librarian who give me a book and live with an other woman.CS: Yes we are supposed to be the morality police. Our butei dinim are supposed to enforce, with capital punishment, observance of the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach. And they must judge our own, as well, with punishments.
Dear Common,
A million percent. If I could add, I did not know about these people until adolescence. It is weird to hear ten a year-old in cheder having ‘frum’ opinions about these things. I do not think it is good for our communal morality.Dear Joseph,
I know of no source that we are supposed to enforce the Sheva Mitzvos. If we would be running the government, then we would be required to uphold whatever is the social contract over the non-jewish poulation also.N0m: If a non-Jew in Eretz Yisroel, during the times of the Sanhedrin, violated a Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, he would face capital punishment by Beis Din.
@Joseph, if that’s what you think you have some major issues with reality.
@ Someone, Exactly we need to live morals not with worry who the flight attendant lives with.Edited
Many people feel strongly that others should live very moral lives. I say concentrate on yourself. We are in America and that is the best you can do.
Dear Joseph,
Source please. The Mishna discusses one who murders without witnesses. This is a case non ritualistic corporal punishment. Any court of 23 could enact it as a deterrent. Why would the Sanhedrin resort to the Noahide system when they could use this option?N0m: That Mishna is talking about Yehudim not nochrim. The former has 613 commandments, only a tiny number that carries capital punishment. The latter has 7 commandments, all of which carry an automatic capital punishment, if violated, with the standards of proof necessary for conviction much more relaxed than the former.
Don’t confuse the former with the latter.
Dear Joseph,
Two different concepts of the death penalty. The symbolic ‘Four Deaths of the Court’. And, the social contract such as the murderer without witnesses. The first needs Sanhedrin to be active in the hewed chamber. The second does not. There is zero obligation on Jews to enforce any commandments of non-Jews. The only way it could happen is if the litigant was disturbing the social order. Since there exists a law for a Jew that is a threat to the State, there is no reason to use the Noahide court system. (Assuming there ever was one.)1. What “murderer without witnesses” case are you referring to?
If there’s no witnesses, why are you assuming the accused is even guilty of murder altogether?
2. Who do you think enforced non-Jews living in Eretz Yisroel during the times of the Sanhedrin with complying with the law (the 7 obligations are part their laws)?
If a non-Jew worshipped idolatry in Jerusalem, do you imagine that the Sanhedrin (when they were in FULL control with no outside power [i.e. the Romans]) would turn a blind cheek?
Dear Joseph,
1. Mishna in Sanhedrin (9: 5) we discussed it above. #1876951
1a Was not sufficiently warned.
2. Nobody. What was a threat to the state was dealt with by the state.
2a Idolatry in Jerusalem is a major crime against the Sanhedrin controlled rulers. They would deal with like any government. Nobody ever suggested that the Chashmonaim where acting as a Beis Din killing the Yevanim for transgressing the Sheva Mitzvos.n0m: Sanhedrin 9:5 is dealing with a repeat offender and/or the punishment you’re referencing is optional for the beis din to mete out at its discretion.
The Noachide Laws apply even to a first-time offender and the capital punishment is automatic and non-discretionary.
Additionally, ALL 7 mitzvos bnei noach carry capital punishment. Even the “minor” ones i.e. eating a live animal such as crab, shrimp; stealing $5, etc.
Dear Joseph,
As far as I understand there is zero obligation on Jews to enforce the Noahide Commandments. [See the Ramban on Vayishlach.] As such, it is just a social contract matter.Which is no less a matter than a murderer who can be released on a technicality. [Your quote is the first part of the Mishna. I am referencing the second part.]I Just flew out on a short business trip and guess what, the flight attendant was a gay man, I know because I was seated near the galley and he was talking about his boyfriend to the other flight attendants.
The person who took my order coffee shop in the airport was a trans.
and guess what? I survived and so will youNobody cares if you survived. The point is to retain the Torahs view of this lifestyle. Why you argue with the Torah is beyond me.
@syag, no the topic of this forum was Bostock v Clayton County and the supreme court ruling, not the torahdiker stand on gays
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