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I’m wondering if perhaps the problems Jothar’s Rav associated with workplace/joint vacations or meals issues are not that “untznius things” happened as a result of same, but that overly familiar interaction leads to meandering thoughts and shades of disappointment in one who was previously enamored with his wife. That can be a shalom bayis killer, however subtle and slowly.
Perhaps this is EXACTLY why the divorce rate amongst the general populace is so rampant. Perhaps there is a world of difference between politeness in the workplace (thank you, Mrs. SoandSo), nodding good morning to the Mrs. Neighbor, and laughing/joking, sharing a light moment, first name basis with female colleagues, joint vacations/meals that promote shared light moments and shared laughter/fun.
The general populace, who has an abundance of experience interacting with opposite genders, seem to have quite a challenge in the “staying married” department.
I know that some couples are able to have joint meals in which the men are able to greet courteously (not over familiarly) and thank sincerely for the food, inserting specific comments of thanks, and not engage in light conversation between genders. The enjoyment of the shared meal is for the two wives to enjoy each others company and the two husbands to enjoy each others company. I don’t know Jothar’s Rav, but I don’t think that in general, the above scenario is what Rabbanim are concerned about.
Jothar, respectfully, I know this Rov and his wife, and you do not have an entire picture. I also am familiar with many of the people he has counseled, some of whom are divorced one case being where the wife worked WITH her husband. Not everything is as glatt as you believe. Leave it at that.It is very easy to blame “modern” things on fundamental problems of making shidduchim for the wrong reasons. I personally believe that this is the reason we have such a problem today.
Women have been in the work force for many many decades, working alongside of men. People have been machnisei orchim for HUNDREDS of years, and we did not see this problem the way we see it today. It is naive to think that those two factors are why so many people are behaving immorally, or getting divorced. it is far more likely that people are getting married too quickly, becoming disillusioned with what they were conditioned to think, and then thinking there is something better out there. Whether they are right or wrong about that, that is what they are thinking, and I know that for a fact from the many women who have confided in me in my own line of work (though they are not behaving in an improper manner, just are very unhappy in their marriages).
I agree with Bemused in that people sometimes become disappointed with their own lives and spouses when they see what is out there, but that can happen anywhere and at any time. If we are so worried about the workplace, then perhaps our Jewish daughters ahould not be working outside the home to support their husbands. But as long as we are teaching them that this is their role, rather than the one that Hashem designed “Kirtzono,” we will have women who eventually come to be dissatisfied with their lives. You may disagree,a s is your right, but it does not change the facts.
Jothar and Bemused (and it goes without saying Rav Weinberger Shlita) are absolutely 100% correct. This insane mingling in the workplace and home between friends and colleagues is the #1 cause of divorce. Until, and unless, this underlying problem is addressed unfortunately the divorce crisis will not abate.
I already have read his article(s). I still respectfully do not agree with all that he says, and since it is not a matter of halacha, I can have a different perspective based on my own conversations with some of those same people. The fact that someone is a Rov does not also mean his opinion in non-halachic matters is the only valid one. To believe otherwise is not a matter of kovod harav, but naivete. Rabbanim are subject to the same prejudices, foibles, and errors of judgment that we all are. Let’s try to not deify them. I have spoken to this rov and his wife many times, and respect ALL of what he says, but happen to disagree with some of it. Period.
Many women want out of their marriages for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with those things that were mentioned. Like everything else today, all the ills of religious society are being blamed on these things. If someone is in a car accident and dies chalilah, it’s not because he was driving carelessly or was too sleepy to drive, or ran a stop sign, it’s because of the internet, or because girls are wearing slits in their skirts. While unquestionably there IS a problem with abuse of the internet, and tznius could be improved greatly, we need to start assigning blame where it belongs – on the husband who surfs the internet for porn, which he could filter from his computer, or the wife who feels unfulfilled and chooses to flirt with men instead of doing her job at work. When couples socialize together, it is pretty obvious if someone is acting or speaking inappropriately, and that is a social relationship that needs to be ended. But it is not the fault of socializing in general, nor is it the fault of living in a computer age. All things need to be done with seichel and moderation, and the yetzer hara is present in ALL things and aspects of life, so maybe we should just lock ourselves up in a tiny room and never go outside our daled amos.
oomis1105, so how do you explain the fact that in the chasidishe world there are less divorces? The men respectfully do not speak to strange women. period. My husband would not appreciate if I invite my friend and her husband for a shabbos meal. Yes, he is chassidish and does not want to mingle with other “strange” couples. There is a gedder that the chassidim take, that many modern pple feel is extreme or not needed, but how can one disagree with a system that has worked and has been proven time and time again.
Mrs. Beautiful:
“so how do you explain the fact that in the chasidishe world there are less divorces?”
This topic has been chewed up on other threads. Most people would retort back at you saying that “it is a bigger taboo to get divorced in the chassidishe community than it is outside said community”. Or they will say that “the chassidishe women are willing to take more abuse”, or “that the men are better at hiding it, for fear of getting kicked out of the communuty”, etc…..
The lack of divorces in the chassidishe world does not mean that they have healthy marriages (even with their strict guidelines). Couples who do get divorced outside the chassidishe community are doing it to have a better life, not because they like getting divorced.
You and Jothar (with his quotes) can blame divorces on having guests over or the internet, but in the end it comes down to the couple. President Truman used to have a sign on his desk “the buck stops here”. Meaning that, in the end, he takes responsibility of everything. My generation has got to learn to start taking responsibility instead of blaming every external factor that they can think of.
Mrs. B . What you state is unfortunately no longer really true today. The chassidic world unfortunately is rapidly catching up to the rest in terms of divorces. I am not going to post here the things that I have read or heard, but unless one wears blinders, one knows that things have changed a great deal. That is not to say that the chassidish way that you describe does not work well for many people. But even thirty-five years ago, chassidim were surreptitiously going for marriage counseling of a specific nature, and I know this because I dated a frum therapist whose clientelle was ALL chassidish. Without breaching doctor/patient confidentiality, I was told eye-opening things about problems in chassidish marriage, and that was a long time ago. Things have gotten more out in the open, and divorce, while not desirable, has less of a social stigma than it once did.
You write that your husband would not appreciate your inviting your friend and her husband to a shabbos meal. My husband would not appreciate it if I were to REFRAIN from inviting couples to our Shabbos table. So you see it really is a matter of one’s perspective. Hachnossas orchim is a very huge mitzvah D’Oraisa. I totally respect your position on this, but it is a derech that I find very limiting.
Jothar: We have a saying that you know something is off when couples spend too much time with each other. Shabbos is meant to spend with one’s own family, and one should not get too “close” to someone elses. As Rabbi Weinburger points out, bad things can happen.
oomis1105 (Just as an FYI): The Rema (OC 333) says that Hachnasas Orchim is only when you invite people who are out of town, but just inviting someone over for a meal is not included. There are Nafkei Mina in Halacha, as pointed out there.
Jothar:
You are basing all that you said on a “well-thought-out opinion of a rav”. Thats ONE rav and HIS opinion. He might have a lot of experience that does not mean that it is correct. Have you talked to any other rabbonim and found out there thoughts on this matter? Have you talked to marriage counselors? Therapists? It is very good that you are basing your opinion on someone who has experience in the field. But, personally, I rather have his thoughts corroborated by others.
Further, I still stand by my opinion, that couples have to learn to grow up and mature and stop blaming everyone and everything else. The internet and having other couples over as guests are just excuses and they are not the root of the problem.
And just to reiterate what Oomis said “Hachnossas orchim is a very huge mitzvah D’Oraisa.” I personally rather do a mitzvah D’Oraisa, then not do one becasuse of some rav who is being extra machmir.
jewish22,
Like gavra brought, it is NOT Hachnoso Orchim to invite your neighborhood friends over.
EDITED
MM and Gavra:
If i am not mistaken, the rema is talking about only those cases where hachnasos orchim is being use so one can be lenient on certain halachas in regards to shabbos (you might want to check the whole rema on the subject). Furthermore, the mishna berura adds to the rema that one can invite others that do not live outside the community into his house once he has ONE guest meeting the criteria.
Therefore, I have to assume that inviting friends over for a shabbos meal might not be the best way to accomplish hachnosos orchim, but you still get the mitzvah.
It is always best not to assume.
MM:
Your right. Let me rephrase. LOGICALLY “inviting friends over for a shabbos meal might not be the best way to accomplish hachnosos orchim, but you still get the mitzvah.”
Our individual perceptions of “logic” take a backseat to halacha and how our Poskim interpret it.
YOUR posek. NOT mine.
And since my Rav invites over couples from around the neighborhood to his home for shabbos meals, I have my “halacha and how our Poskim interpret it” telling and showing me that it is acceptable and preferred to have guests over (whether they live ion the neighborhood or not, or they are my friends or not).
He may be doing that for Kiruv purposes.
Jothar:
According to a study done in 2007 by the IACP (International Academy of Collaborative Professionals):
* Divorces often happen because people rarely discuss their expectations in detail prior to marriage, are less willing to work on their marriages afterwards, and would like quick solutions rather than having to resolve issues. People have gotten divorced for trivial reasons like snoring.
* People who come from divorced homes are more likely to get divorced than people who come from happily married households. Divorce seems less like a big deal if you have seen your parents go through with it.
* People who get married between the ages of 23-27 are more likely to stay together than people who get married in their teens.
MM:
Now you are just grasping at straws. I live in a community in NYC that is considered one of the more yeshivish places. Not one of my rabbeim, Roshei Yeshiva, or Rabbi’s from any of the shuls would even hesitate to invite people from the community over to their house for a shabbos meal.
He is inviting guests who are as religious as he is to his house and he goes to them because of kiruv???? (sarcasm)!
As usual, there is a middle ground that is being unexplored here.
As some posters have pointed out, Shabbos is a time that should be spent with family — especially the Shabbos meals. We all lead hectic lives and I know that, at least in my family, the Shabbos meal time is the one time in the week when we know that we will all sit at the table together and be able to enjoy each other’s company. We, as a family, value that time.
That being said, however, I think that if we had to have our family *and only our family* for company week after week after week with no other “new faces” to look at, we might eventually go stir crazy. So, once in a while, we may have “new faces” over for a meal. Perhaps a family with whom we are friends, my sister and her family, etc. We don’t entertain (or go out to others) too often because we don’t want to give up our family meal time either, but once in a while, it’s nice to have a change of pace. Sometimes, it almost becomes a tradition — there is one family that we usually have over on the last day of Pesach — we joke that we are their “gebrokts dealer.”
Bottom line, I suppose, is this – we can’t envision entertaining (or being entertained) every week. We need our family time. But, on the other hand, if we *never* had guests (or went out), then we would fall into a rut which is also bad. So once in a while (perhaps once every other month or once a quarter), we have guests in or eat out. For us, that’s a nice balance.
The Wolf
Unhappy couples always existed with divorce or no divorce, people stay together because they are afraid of what the people are going to say and worry about their children shidduchim that doesn’t mean it is the correct way, many children suffer in the house and see the bad samples of a bad marriage. Should a couple stay together for the sake of the people and children and have a misserable existance? It is a very big question, well I live in a catholic country and divorce is definitly forbidden by their church and I always think to myself the Torah is the wise one. Hashem knows that in certain cases divorce is necessary and our Torah allows it. So if Hashem through the Torah allows divorce why should we stigmatise divorce and divorcees. They need our love and help not our rejection if they went through a divorce is probably because they had a reason.
GAW, I am sure that there are many, many people who regularly invite others over for a Shabbos meal, who would be very surprised as am I, to hear that they had no mitzvah in doing so unless the people were from out of town. I plan to continue inviting people, even if I get no sachar for it, because it enhances my Oneg Shabbos and Yom Tov to share with my family and friends. I also plan to speak to my Rov about this, because it is contradictory to everything I have ever learned my entire life.
Quoting OOmis “You write that your husband would not appreciate your inviting your friend and her husband to a shabbos meal. My husband would not appreciate it if I were to REFRAIN from inviting couples to our Shabbos table. So you see it really is a matter of one’s perspective. Hachnossas orchim is a very huge mitzvah D’Oraisa. I totally respect your position on this, but it is a derech that I find very limiting.”
By the way, We preform hachnosos Orchim almost EVERY shabbos! Mainly we have bucherim from the nearby yeshiva WHO DONT HAVE A PLACE TO EAT. The boys are polite, many have been coming back again and again. They say good shabbos, when they come and go and they thank me for the meal. That is the extent of conversation I have with the boys. Some even prefer to go through my husband “please tell your eishes chayil that everything was delicious”. I am perfectly fine with that. I dont delve into their family history, ask who their cousins are, discuss politics, or how the food tastes in yeshiva…because I dont speak to “strange” men. This is a gedder. The meals are extremly uplifting with geshmake zmiros and divrei torah.
(BTW, many pple invite their friends – couples – for a shabbos meal as a social gathering and then pat themselves on the back – hachnosos orchim).
For some reason, this thread was on my mind a lot and I was reminded of a death certificate. It lists the cause of death, for example, respiratory arrest. Then it lists one or more proximate causes. What caused the respiratory arrest? Some underlying lung disease?
It seems to me that perhaps socializing may be the cause of the divorce, but there was probably a proximate cause. As jaw22 pointed out, do they communicate? Are they really committed to each other and to their marriage? From what I’ve observed (and I am certainly no expert), people who are fully committed do not get distracted from socializing with other couples.
quoting haifagirl, From what I’ve observed (and I am certainly no expert), people who are fully committed do not get distracted from socializing with other couples.
I am very sorry, but a good looking sweet woman will attract a man no matter how commited he is . Men should not fool themselves – this is the way Hashem created man.
Especially that when couples socialize you dont get to see the true colors of each spouse as u do when u live with them, thus one can think “judging from this outing this must be the perfect spouse”.
“a good looking sweet woman will attract a man no matter how commited he is . Men should not fool themselves – this is the way Hashem created man.:
very true Poster, and it doesn’t have to do with how religious they are either.
Mybat and Poster:
“”a good looking sweet woman will attract a man no matter how commited he is . Men should not fool themselves – this is the way Hashem created man.”
I would acquiesce to you that point that a VERY good looking women would always attract a mans eye, however, that does not mean that the guy would stray from his marriage. If he has a true marriage then he would think that his wife is the MOST BEAUTIFUL LADY in the room, no matter who is in it. That is marriage. When a person strays it does not matter if they have guests over or not, the person would cheat on his wife even without the “excuse” of guests because the couple does not have a relationship.
Now if you want to say that the post-shidduch crisis is because we do not give young couples enough time to make a foundation for their marriage. That they don’t feel that the other is the most beautiful, special person in the world, then that is a problem with the marriage/dating system we have in place and it should be changed.
This means that during the courtship period and the first year of marriage (which most newly married couples usually spend together and not with friends) they should get to know each other and build their relationship. It does not mean that he should be in the bais medrash all day and she should be out working 12 hours a day to support him, and neither would have time to see each other let alone get to know their respective spouse.
Furthermore, they should start building their relationship once the dating gets serious and through the engagement period (since the dating “for the maximum of 6 weeks” certainly does not facilitate a relationship). This new idea that once the couple gets engaged they should only see each other once a week and talk only 3 times a week just hurts the marriage from the start. They are going to be living with each other, hopefully, FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES!! The faster they get to know each other now the better their marriage would be in the long run.
Guests over for meals and going out with friends is not the problem. It’s not having a marriage that is the problem.
It is true that a couple lacking proper communication is “more susceptible” but don’t think anyone is that strong. Why place yourself or your spouse in a difficult situation for no reason? Is it really worth it?
I’m not saying that it’s wrong to ever have another family over for a meal. FAMILY. Not couple. (At least if you have a family – even if you’re inviting a younger couple.) But you have to know yourself and your spouse and be open to things that you don’t like. I know that there are certain people my family is comfortable having and some that we try to avoid spending excessive time with as a family.
And eating out is completely inappropriate. Inviting has room for questions.
jmatt and jothar, well said.
Jothar:
For the record, I am a male.
Jothar:
Why do you think that have a strong foundation for marriage is bad? Isn’t this whole thread discussing this? Why marriages fail so early in there existence?
Jmatt:
I agree with you, to a point. I am not saying that you should do stuff that you are not comfortable with. That is a decision that each person makes by themselves.
However, I respectfully disagree with you and stand by my words. We should NOT ban young couples (not families but couples) from having each other over as guests. I believe that it builds a sense of community, friendships, and support system that will be there for years to come.
My parents have friends who they don’t talk to on a constant basis but whenever they need something, or need to stay over for shabbos for a simcha, they do not hesitate to call them., This is due to the friendship that they forged when they were all young married couples.
I am sorry to say, but not all innocent activities lead down the road to disaster. If you are not strong enough, or you do not think your marriage is strong enough, then do not have guests over. But there should not be a blanket ban, as those that are suggesting, because of a select few.
oomis1105:
I was just as surprised when I learned the halacha.
The fact that it does not qualify as “Hachnasas Orchim” does not mean it does not qualify as “Gemilus Chessed”. The point which I was trying to make (for that point) was technical, not that it should not be done.
Jothar said: “When Chazal tell us “al tarbeh sicha im isha” (pirkei avos), they didn’t say “but the mitzvah of Hachnosas Orchim will be destroyed if we say this!” clearly there are ways to do both.”
Well said. Especially since that Chazal is dealing (IIR) with Ishto Niddah 🙂
I could not agree more with Jewishandworking22. This new “fear” that is overtaking our community, is going down a road that will eventually lead to people being disenfranchised and isolated. Not only will our young people not know how to socially interact in an appropriate manner as we are already seeing, but NOBODY will interact with anyone other than their immediate family. That used to be referred to as clannish – not a flattering adjective, btw. Way to go for achdus Yisroel!
I plan to discuss this with my Rov tonight after our shiur. I will specify that the Remo wrote this, and ask him what it means. As far as I am concerned, and as I said before, I will continue to invite my orchim whether or not they travel from out of town and whether or not I get the mitzvah of H”O for it. My friend lives a few blocks away, but it is hard for her to walk now, and she comes in a wheelchair. I specifically invite her because it is harder now for her to prepare all the yom tov meals for herself and her husband,and they are alone. Why should they sit alone with no one else to talk to? So the Remo is telling me that Hashem does not consider that to be hachnossas orchim??? I’m checking with Uncle Moishy and the Mitzvah Men, pronto!!!!!
Al tarbeh Sicho etc B’Ishtoh Omru, K”V Beishes chaveiroh.
How is that possible if he never is in a situation.
Chazal mean even in a case where she’s over for a meal.
Al tarbeh Sicho! Not that one shouldn’t be M’kayeim Hachnosas Orchim.
Oomis:
Thanks for the backing. It is a pleasure to note that there are people who are not afraid of there own shadow.
oomis1105: In fact, the Magen Avraham there (as quoted by the Be’er Haytev) specificly states that one gets a mitzva by inviting guests, even if its not included in that definition of “Hachnasas Orchim”.
Some things in Judaism are not black and white, even though the frum society today tries very hard to make it that way. I agree that banning guests is ridiculous but at the same time I have seen (and experienced) many cases where there was actually a real problem. So where do we draw our lines? Do we just have to know ourselves and be honest with ourselves if it applies to us or not? I teach non-religious college students and sadly the answer I give most commonly throughout the day is “Don’t judge judaism by the jews..” They ask me about morality in Judaism and all the issues and problems in Orthodox society and I have to say, Judaism is beautiful..the Jews..sometimes not so much. It makes me nauseous and its embarrassing that this is the answer I have to give. Yes, I understand we are human and make mistakes..no one is perfect, not me you, the gadol hador or Moshe Rabbeinu..but even though Moshe made mistakes you can see what he lived for, his essence, his higher, purposeful way of living. If we lived the ways Jews were meant to live we won’t need to have blanket bans, and takanos that get stranger by the year, and as many issues in marriage, and parenting, and dating as we do now. Start living in a way that allows people to judge Judaism by the Jews.
Whew, GAW! I was starting to get nervous! The words H”O literally mean the bringing in of guests. So I am really not clear on why the Remo felt so specifically as he did, and I am curious to explore the halacha further. Thank you for the information.
JAW22
You have to understand that while there are many couples who have very strong marriages there are others that married out of pressure and or of convenience. That doesn’t mean that they don’t like their wives but for them they don’t always see them as the most beautiful woman out there. When you combine that fact and the fact that they are hanging out with their friends and their wives it could be a recipie for disaster. (I’m not saying that it even leads to anything improper but they could start comparing spouses subconsciously) I’m not saying not to have friends or guests over (actually my husband and I do have guests over) it just has to be done with tziniut and without exaggeration.
mybat:
You brought an interesting point to the conversation, which leads directly to the the topic at hand (post-shidduch crisis).
You wrote “there are others that married out of pressure and or of convenience”. I am glad that people are getting married, however, to get married for those reasons makes a perversion of the concept of marriage. I am sorry to say, but we are no longer in the middle ages, we (at least litvish (is that how you spell it??)) do not have arranged marriages. We are not european nobility where the children get married to form alliances (though I do believe this still occurs in the chasidishe world).
We should stop forcing girls and guys to get married to someone that is not right for them just because we are afraid that they won’t get married at the ripe age of 19. We should not advocate that girls get married right out of seminary (if they are not ready) and boys to marry for money (which is happening according to my cousin who is a professional shadchan).
If couples get married because they are truly right for each other than one of them will always stand up for the relationship no matter what is happening. And 99% of the time the couple WOULD see each other as the most special, beautiful person in the world.
So instead of advocating not having your friends over for meals of getting together with your friends as couples, let us ban marriages of conveniences and pressure. Let the couples marry because they like their spouse.
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