The Post Kollel Financial Crisis

Meno, as it is everywhere, lrarners in kollel fall along the classic statistical bell curve. A students on the right, F students on the left and the B,C,D students in the middle. As long as kollels allow the C,D and F students to stay, the kollels have no call on our charity dollar.

Why are you all assuming that sitting and learning in Kollel is not a tremendous contribution to society?

Do you mean מאי אהני לן רבנן? It’s nothing new…

There have never been so many people historically learning in kollel full time. Such a thing should only be for really excellent learners maybe the top 1 percent determined by rigorous testing. This is how it used to be back in Europe. Everyone else should pursue a profession or trade. There is no mitzvah to be poor. Also many people today have several kids before getting jobs. How is this a good idea? With tuition and other expenses how do jobless learners expect to pay for their kids? We need to have a societal shift in thinking and insist that boys in high school should already learn the basics of economics.

Being a Kollel man should not have anything to do with learning ability. Someone who is a poor learner but has a great desire to learn Torah full time has just as much right to be a Kollel man as the best learner in Brisk. There’s absolutely no halachic reasoning, logic or source to say that the best learner has more reason to be a Kollel man than someone who cannot learn so well but nevertheless greatly desires to learn Torah all day.

And today with so much assimilation that the frum are a tiny minority of Jews, there are so few Jews dedicated to full time Limud HaTorah. Perhaps about 1 in 1,000 Jews are in Kollel. Only 1 in 1,000 Jews in Kollel, Rabbosai! Do you hear that dismal number?! We need to raise by manifold the number of Kollel yungerleit. Over the next four to five years we must aim to at least triple the number of Kollel men.

There’s about 18 million Jews in the world. One tenth of one percent would be 18,000.

Btw there are closer to 13 million jews but for those eligible for kollel you can only count half so 6.5 million. Israel alone has 100k kollel men so your 1 in 1000 math is totally off.

Syag gets it.

Thanks for bringing up and expounding on one of my points a lot better than I did here:

Part of the shock comes from thinking that only when learning does one struggle for parnassah. News flash: most of us struggle financially no matter how long in the work force.

There are more than 18 million Jews since many Jews don’t even know they’re Jewish and aren’t counted as Jewish. And unfortunately Eretz Yisroel doesn’t have anything close to the number of Kollel men as you claim.

Halevai that there should be 100,000 Kollel guys in Eretz Yisroel. If we work hard enough hopefully we can reach (and exceed!) that figure.

Phil, don’t worry. You need not contribute one miserly penny towards even a single Kollel. You keep stashing your “hard earned money” into your savings account and one day you’ll be able to afford a golden casket.

In the absence of your contributions, I am pleased to report that nevertheless over the past 75 years of the postwar period, despite great predictions of the Kollel systems impending demise that’s been predicted by naysayers such as yourself each and every year for over the last 50 years, the Kollel system is going as strong as ever. And has continued so through both good economic times and bad economic times.

Joseph,

Thanks for your smarmy comment on how you imagine I allocate my charitable giving. I happen to support a very carefully chosen Kollel in Yerushalaim but most of my funds go to widows, orphans and the sick.

Where you get the nerve to call another Jew miserly and to tell others where they should be contributing? You pretend to be a ben-Torah but clearly aren’t one. The web is not a proper forum for people like you. Get off and stop causing constant chillul Hashem.

Syag:

I have found some comments here objectionable (unless they agree with me), but I do not detect blatant apikorsus.

You are correct, that one cannot sit idle stating that Hashem will provide. But that is not because we don’t excel in bitachon. We are not permitted to do that. Several earlier comments cited chapter and verse regarding our obligation for hishtadlus. If people are pleased with poverty, they can have it. But that does not give them the privilege to public funds. לא יחדל אביון מקרב הארץ is not a mitzvah. It is Hashem’s notice that there will be those at the lower end of the financial continuum. And in assets, as well as in other parts of life, equality is a foreign concept. The challenge for this was in the drama by Korach, who insisted that there be no leaders, that everyone was equal. He got what was deserved for this approach. There will always be the richer and poorer. But that is not accomplished by volunteering to be either – it comes from the combination of hishtadlus and Hashgochas Hashem.

In addition, the benefits that kollelim provide to the frum community are not in dispute. What some are rejecting is that there are too few that are excelling and deserving of public subsidy. The rest should not be there. It is these that are in crisis after spending several years too many in the refuge of the kollel beis hamedrash. It is not about bitachon. It is about mature responsibility. Yes, some will try and fail. They are chayav to continue trying. But it is foolish to expect wealth to rain down upon them when they emerge from their decade of learning with their beautiful growing family. That is not bitachon. It is אין סומכים על הנס. That is the crisis. And as Einstein defined insanity – doing the same thing and expecting a different result. That is NOT a Torah virtue.

If one adds up the entire GDP of Lakewood and divided the income evenly, It would not be enough to help everyone

Joseph, I have to admire your consistency. You throw out numbers and “facts” without backup ( 18 million Jews, Yeshiva curriculum, the number of people supporting kollels etc ). You are actually very amusing

Joseph Says:

“Being a Kollel man should not have anything to do with learning ability. Someone who is a poor learner but has a great desire to learn Torah full time has just as much right to be a Kollel man as the best learner in Brisk. ”

If you are a “poor learner” and also poor from a financial perspective, its probably a good idea to move yourself from behind a shtender and into the workforce. Neither the taxpayers of NY/NJ nor the generous askanim who support worth mosdos have any obligation to support those who are not cut out for learning and are too lazy to get a job. Once you find employment and can support your family, than perhaps its appropriate to find a part-time chavrusah who can learn with you at your level (whatever that might be). There are several very good website that are designed exactly for the purpose of matching part time learning partners who have similar skills and interests. Some provide for meeting at some local shul/beis medrash and others create “virtual” learning chavrusahs online. Either way though, don’t become a burden on the taxpayers or wastefully suck up the limited tzadakah available.

Joseph I can say your last comment is not true at all at least for me. I have no problem supporting organizations that give money for yungermen who are tested for their knowledge and maintain some sense of accountability like dirshu but would never support somebody who doesn’t have the head for learning. Such a person should be mature enough to realize like I did that they are better off getting a job working and supporting those who are excellent at Learning. Never has it been the case nor is it necessary now for everyone to learn full-time

Contrary to the belief of many, it is impossible to predict who will become a Talmid Chacham. As the Chazon Ish said, “Every student is a possible godol hador”. The Roshei Yeshiva of today were not all the ones who people thought would become the Roshei Yeshiva of today. And vice versa. Talent and intellect help, to be sure, but effort and siyata dishmaya are more important to success as a Torah scholar. Becoming a “godol” is not just for the brightest. In fact, often it is not they who attain that goal. An average student, and it has happened that also below average students, have become great Gedolim and surpassed their more talented peers. Not everybody can become the greatest Talmid Chacham in the world. But everybody can become as close to the greatest Talmid Chacham in the world that he can. Those Bnei Torah, the ones who pour their heart and soul and life into learning Hashem’s Torah, merit, every single one of them, the greatest share in Olam Habah possible.

That is the main reason people learn in Kollel. Because Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam.

To Joseph:
You say that “Becoming a “gadol” is not just for the brightest…”

Well, its clear that I am living proof of your comment but that also makes my point. It is relatively easy to determine after a modest amount of time which of the guys shteiging in the beis medrash are “gadol” material and especially which ones have more than a .0001 percent likelihood of becoming a “gadol hador”. Its unfair to both baalei tzadakah and the bochur himself to use scarce resources for someone in his mid-20s to be painfully trying to understand the complexities of “shor sh’nagach shor”. In some utopian society with unlimited resources, maybe…but in the real world, have everyone find some vocation in which they can excel and move on from that in which they cannot.

The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy. We have to be there, granted; we have to make a living for our families – which is a Mitzvah in itself – but we need to realize the price we pay for those necessities.

There is a story in the mussar seforim, about a man who had a premonition that next year’s crops would be poisoned, so that whoever would eat it would become insane. He didn’t; know what to do — if he would eat the crops he’d become insane, but if he does not eat the crops, the whole world will be insane except him, and being the only normal one in an insane world is just as bad as being insane. Warning people about the crops is useless because nobody would believe him anyway. So he went ot the village wise man who told him, “You have to eat the crops. You’re right – that being the only normal person in an insane world is as bad as being insane. Plus it will drive you crazy anyway. But here’s what you do:

“Tie a string around your finger to remind yourself constantly that you have eaten from the crops and you are insane. Being insane is bad, but in this case you have no choice. However, for the rest of the world, much worse than being insane is the fact that they will think they’re normal. Being insane is bad, but being insane thinking you’re normal is much worse. So tie a string around your finger which will always remind you that you are insane. You’ll be insane, but at least you’ll know you’re insane. Everyone else will think they’re normal, so you’ll be much much better off than the rest.”

The nimshal is, there’s nothing wrong with going to work, and often it may even be a necessity. But to spend the gift of life that Hashem gives us for such a short time in this world selling cars or programming computers or whatever we need to do to make a living, is insane. It may be necessary, but it’s still insane. We have so little to live in this world (we should all live to 120 years, but compared to eternity in the afterlife, 120 years is nothing), and its our only chance to collect Torah and Mitzvos — how crazy is it to busy ourselves with other things??

But we have to? OK, we have to. At the very least, let us realize that we do so out of necessity and that making a living necessitates our leading a life which, when you consider what we’re on this world for and the opportunities that exist ONLY while we are here, is insane. Let’s at least realize that.

For those who learn all day, they may not need to tie strings around their fingers, but, unfortunately, in the materialistic and confused world that we live in, they need posts such as this one, to constantly remind them that their lives are very, very normal, sane, and healthy.

The hardships of Kolel are nothing compared to the pleasures. Like Rav Aharon ZT’L said – that those who support learning might get Olam Habah like those who learn, but they surely don’t get Olam Hazeh like them. Money isn’t everything – even in Olam Hazeh.

before you claim that halaxhikly everyone even those that can’t learn should be supported in kollel…. learn hikchos Talmud Torah of the shulchan aruch harav.
he clearly states that only the select few who the community needs to be in learning for psak and shalios should be supported by the community. ecéryone else should learn too. but just support yourself and be moiser nefesh to learn hour a a day. it’s possible.

Some would have us believe that going to work or even planning for it is something a frum person should do only as a last resort. They glibly declare that most people should make Torah their livelihood and that this has always been how our nation functioned. However, the Gemara testifies (Brachos 35b) , “Harbeh Asu…V’lo Alsah B’yadan”, this is not how the majority should live for they will fail and not even have Torah from it. It’s the proper way only of the select minority who are capable of it.

Pretending that this somehow doesn’t apply to us has led to the intolerable Chillul Hashem we’ve been forced to endure, where we have to read:
“‘We have a failure in our community that we have to address,’ Rabbi Aaron Kotler, leader of the world’s largest yeshiva outside of Israel told NJ.com. ‘Theft is wrong. We need to do better to educate people.'”

This situation is such a complex one, and each of the sides has important points, there is no real simple solution. In fact it really is a very old argument- is Torah learning for the masses or for the elite?
I remember learning about Avraham’s Eshel, which chazal explain either as a tree (pardes, orchard) from which he fed his guests, or as an inn (pundak) to receive guests. The Pundak would be open for all- Torah for the masses. the Tree was more for the elite. So even Chazal disagreed which was the best approach to spreading Torah learning.
To add to the mix a few things to think about (applicable to America, not to Israel where army service/laws against working also play a factor in the length of learning).
People raised the point that only the best and brightest should be supported in learning (Pardes approach), as in the past where the great Yeshivos in Europe had strict entrance requirements and so only the best stayed in learning.
1. We are far wealthier today as a whole than the Jewish communities of Europe were in the past, so the model of only being able to support a small few in learning is not comparable.
2. One of the problems with the old system was that Torah became an exclusive right of the elite, leaving the rest of the population disenfranchised, and with only a weak link to frumkeit. Chasidus stepped in to give alternative means to become close to hashem even for the non-learners. So perhaps the danger is minimized today, with other means to develop in ones’s avodas Hashem, and because the general population has far more opportunities to learn Torah today even in a non-Kollel environment than the typical Cheder boy of yesteryear who stopped his learnings at a young age to work. But we would still be wary of a scenario where Torah is only for the elite. Also there is another danger- If full-time learning is reserved for a minority, that minority might lose its standing and respect (as has been true in the past, say mid 20th century America), so that the best and brightest will not turn to Torah learning.
3. How many need to learn in order to continue to produce gedolim b’Torah? The gemara talks about 1000 in entered the Beis Medrash to produce 1 gadol. There is a concept that you need a critical mass of Torah learning to create an environment that fosters gadlus b’Torah. Torah greats will not be produced in some ivory tower of elite learners only.
4. As Joseph said (one of the few times I actually agree with him), it is hard to predict who will be the future gedolei hador- IQ and brilliance is not necessarily a predictor, hasmada and desire to learn can often overcome lesser intellectual skills. We’re not talking about those who are breaking their teeth trying to understand and see no success in their studies. Long-term learning is somewhat of a self-selective process. Those who can’t learn for whatever reason will not be sitting in kollel for 10+ years. At the most, they will stay in Yeshiva because of shidduchim pressures, and maybe 1-2 yrs after marriage, but at some point their self-esteem and other interests will override external pressures and they will leave learning. So really the “controversy” is about those who stay 3-10 years, who can learn, although they may not be the best at it.
5. The model of yesteryear when one could work and learn at the same time (think cobbler learning as he fixes shoes, milkman discussing Torah with his colleagues as he delivers the milk) is sort of obsolete. Not too many laborers and craftsmen these days. The well-paying jobs that frum people tend to go for require many years of study and then involve many long hours of work which involve total concentration, leaving not too many hours left for learning, even if he can muster the intellectual stamina to do so. There aren’t many openings these days for shepherds.
6. If one waits until he needs parnassa to get one, then there will be long schooling delay that he cannot afford. If he gets his degree/training before his kollel years, then by the time he is ready to/needs to work, his skills will be obsolete and his job opportunities limited due to the gap. So he needs to get his degree/training as he learns, but that distracts him from his learning, with one foot constantly out the door… What is the solution? By the way, there are training programs in place – even in Lakewood. They help the men earn BTLs (for whatever they are worth), there are accelerated accounting programs, kiruv training programs, and others.

Whew (long)!