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BS”D
1) Is the OTD crisis really a crisis of epic proportions or is it that:
a) B”H our world has grown so much over the past 50 years that in reality the percentage of those who go off and stay off is very low B”H but the number is higher than it ever was because it is a smaller percentage of a bigger number (as opposed to a bigger percentage of a much smaller number in the 50’s and 60’s)?
b) Some teens who are going off do so in such dramatic and detrimental ways – drugs, wild behavior, etc. In the old days, a kid would just reach 18 or 21 and quietly drift away (usually to a professional career but often into intermarriage either themselves or in the next generation R”L), and parents would be powerless to control it because they were new immigrants or first generation and between two worlds themselves.
c) Some adults who go off then attack the community or individuals therein, creating a sense of guilt on our part that is perhaps just what these unfortunate individuals want. This is a big problem in E”Y but we see it now too from time to time, for instance when a novel written by someone who grew up in Monsey became a topic of discussion.
d) The blogosphere allows everyone with an internet connection and an opinion to blow up any problem he wants way out of proportion, and certain parties who are OTD or wanting to defend their extremely left wing views have done just this with the OTD problem.
2) The child abuse and assault issue, while very real, is being given too much coverage by those who would use it as a cudgel to destroy us – again those who have left and those on the fringes. Unfortunately, one askan in particular whose work and derech I truly admire, has stated that the number one cause of the OTD phenomenon is abuse. While I believe that even one case of abuse is one too many, it seems implausible that we have such a high rate of abuse. Constant claims of abuse without documentation opens the doors to kids who do not get along with their teachers, or parents who have disputes with principals, to start claiming abuse and ruining the lives of ehrliche Yidden who are moiser nefesh for chinuch.
3) More plausible reasons for the OTD phenomenon include:
a) Kids who are not suited to learning being forced into a yeshiva framework which is not suited for them. Vocational and business training schools with a Torah component must be opened to serve these kids and their parents.
b) Half baked baal tshuva parents who never really accepted Torah as anything more than another 70’s alternative lifestyle chas vesholom, and who basically have New Age, mock spirituality based values. (This may be more of a problem in Chabad, which is my community, than anywhere else – I am not sure.) The kids get a message that Torah is just another “spiritual journey” or whatever and that they might as well get their kicks elsewhere. This crowd is the one behind some of the “alternative Jewish music” drivel that has appeared lately and is really just New Age trance music with vague words about some divine spark or another. Somehow, there must be a way to reach these kids and tell them plain and simple – you need to rebel against your parents’ continued counterculture nonsense by doing what they set out to do but never could finish and that is to truly return to Torah.
c) People not having clear rules and hashkafah and thinking they are above daas Torah; they send their kids to a school that has proper values and act and behave totally differently to those values at home. Of course a kid resents school and wants to please his parents – so he sees through the mixed message and chooses to move even further afield than his parents. This includes people who just go through the motions and really don’t know whether they believe or not, either because they are in the fold just for social reasons or they, like all of us, need refreshment and inspiration from time to time but do not know how and where to seek it out.
d) The damage done by haimishe fraudsters to the image of the community, but usually this only affects those who want to use it as an excuse to go off. It often turns out that the Federal koilel yungerleit were living double lives as well as committing white collar crimes; if anything someone ehrlich could point to some of them and say that they represent the secular world that they embraced and not where they came from. In fact, quite a few OTD teens and young adults are involved in white collar crime (and even drift into burglary and violent crime).
Still, my biggest question is whether the crisis is one of numbers or one of destructive behavior – or better yet is it that B”H we realize that even ONE kid off the derech is ONE too many (just as this is the case with abuse).
you know it took me till the third paragraph to figure out what “OTD” stands for?
i think i’m staying far away from this one.
I think that OTD is a bigger issue now because people make it one. 20 years ago, how many schools or programs were there to deal with OTD teens? Not many. Now, everybody has a solution which they want to share with the world. Everyone seems to know what’s causing it, and knows how to fix it. It gets publicized much mroe because of this.
Abuse definitely is a terrible thing. Is it the only reason people go off? Of course not. However, there are different types of abuse. There is physical abuse, and there are mental or emotional forms of abuse. When I wasn’t frum, one of the main reasons I started down the path going off was two Rabbeim I had who treated me horribly. One constantly embarrassed me publicly. I asked him repeatedly to stop. I told him my classmates made fun of me after class because of it, but he didn’t want to listen. Just so you know, this a respected Rebbe in a major yeshiva. He’s been in chinuch for over 40 years.
The other Rebbe lied to me straight up, also embarrassed me, and couldn’t admit that he did something wrong.
These people made me decide that I wasn’t interested in being a “learning guy”. I said that if this was what learning full time made you, I didn’t want a part of it. I was then told by other people that if I went to college, I was throwing my life away, and would never amount to anything. I was told I wouldn’t be a frum Jew if I went to college.
I ended up spending about a year where I wasn’t frum. Didn’t keep Shabbos, didn’t keep kosher, etc.
Now, would you say this was caused by abuse? Definitely not physical abuse. You might consider it emotional abuse.
I know I’m gonna get a lot of attacks for what I’m about to say but this is MY opinion I know a lot of ppl won’t agree with me but I think that OTD comes from a lack of maturity… Not always but in some cases
abuse issue: i feel it is very serious and i dont think people make this kind of stuff up. simple things like fingerprinting private schools are being tried to be made into law and some yeshiva principals and others are against it for some reason.
there are so many issues to this topic. excuse me if i slightly go off. i seem to be quite older than most people in the cr. i have a sister nearing 60. she told me when she was younger growing up in the states, the kids in the day school all played with each other. it didn’t matter if they were from chassidish homes or litvish. everyone were friends and the parents did not check each other out. the generation has changed. schools have changed. try getting an average student into school, impossible! pick up an average jewish magazine with adds. the gashmiyus is enormous. we are different. we want different things for our families that people didn’t have or need 40 years ago. abuse is out there yes, but i know many teenagers personally that were not physiclly abused that are otd. we need tons of love and tons of patience for these kids. maybe that is what g-d is trying to teach us now. it doesn’t really matter why, but how can we help them.
A lot of people go through nisyonos. Some grow from them and some get broken.
syriansephardi: i sound more immature than you?
intellegent: am i growing or am i broken?
Itzik_s
i sure hope you’re not talking about me. (grammatically it can’t be me, but people mess that up all the time…)
intellegent: am i growing or am i broken?
moish,
emotionally – growing
physcially – broken (…the leg, I meant)
phew! yeh i noticed the past tense… but you never know with everyone’s grammar.
The OTD situation is growing by leaps and bounds for obvious reasons. Many of the adults have all their priorities wrong and the kids see this and get turned off. The focus for shidduchim is on money, money and more money. Even many yeshivas look at their balance sheets to determine if they are successful. We have a kollel system where wives have to go to work so the kids are being raised by spanish maids. You can tell who the frum jews are just by looking at their houses or should I say mansions. The kids look at the adults, realize that many of them are full of baloney and get turned off. Years ago, kids turned away from reform and conservative because they knew it wasn’t legit and now many are doing the same in our circles. Heaven help us.
Can’t stand these threads about OTD with people posting things that are not true. Not that I wish it on anyone, but if one has a child that is OTD your views on the subject are VERY different. take it from me.
Itzik_s, who learned you english?
what is OTD???
teen, did you read Itzik’s first post through?
moish01: yeh i realize it has something to do with kids going off but i still cant figure out what OTD stands for
Itzik_s
ok yiddish, french, english, and was it irish you said you knew? sheesh! what else?
teen: it took me awhile too, OTD= off the derech, i think.$
oh y is that a crisis???
i mean yeh i guess its not the best thing but i think the real crisi is that anyone who is off is labeled and pretty much ostracized and forced to hang out with a certain type of crowd which leads to them doing drugs and crime
honestly im not all that religious myself (and please dont try to “help” me…im not rly intrested) and all my freinds are doing drugs if not worse…i dont do them myself but many of these kids would not be doing them either but were pressured into it by their freinds to do it “one time” and each time led to another
its great that u dont want these kids influencing ur own but many of these kids can be kept on to a certain extent (they may not keep shabbos but they wont do crime or drugs) some of these kids may even end up comitting murder (this is not such a long shot) and that would make it pikuach nefesh which if there is a situation of pikuach nefesh u do not even need to keep shabbos so just remember bec u didnt let ur kid hang out with these kids they may end up doing things they never would have dreamed of
teen don’t be stupid. i wouldn’t want my kids hanging out with guys like my friends. trust me, you know it – even if you won’t admit it.
and who commits murder? maybe DWI.
and what does pikuach nefesh have to do with anything? yeh when a kid ODs and needs a hospital it’s pikuach nefesh. but that was so random.
yeh now that i think about it it was pretty stupid…sorry i just hate it that the religious world ostricizes someone bec they think they r not religious especially when they r not rly off
uhhh idk how old u r but u may b from an older generation when being off didnt mean u were dsoing drugs and things but my generation most off kids do drugas and crime and r part of gangs drugs can lead to drug dealing and gangs lead to turf wars which can both lead to killing ppl
yeh im not rly sure what i meant by that…just trying to add a little of my jewish knowledege into the conversation 😉
what i was trying to say with the pikuach nefesh is that if u let these children hang out with ur child they may turn out not as bad as they do bec of the ppl they r forced to hang out with which can lead to murder (possibly) so as much as u may think it is horrible and that ur kid may end up off bec of it that it should b halachically permissable if it prevents a deaths…but now that i think about it doesnt rly make that much sense
only proffesionals can help children that went through some kind of abuse, but today the programs, i do not want to write names, that send “big brothers and big sisters” to spend a few hours a week to be with the otd children, are taught what to look for .mind you All conversations that go on between a child and his mentor must be confidential in order for the relationship to work. if the mentors fear there is a bigger problem, only then they will go to the head of the program to report it.the mentors spend time and just have a good time with the kids. they do not try to change them.
shindy, Welcome back!!!!
****DELETED**** Please follow the rules – Thanks!
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YW Moderator-99
~a~
AWW, Thanks anonymisss.
Itzik_s
doesn’t matter if she’s right or wrong. you’re still not gonna get anywhere with that attitude.
she’s a kid. like me. leave it.
i’m not interested in discussing anything. you have all the brilliant adults on here to put their ideas together and and figure out how to say whatever they want to hear. i just wanted to say that don’t agree with teen, but there’s no need to bash her like that. it’ll do more damage than good.
tip for life: there’s no such thing as scaring a teenager like that. friends are always more important. and i’m not a stupid guy and i feel the same way.
tip for life: there’s no such thing as scaring a teenager like that. friends are always more important. and i’m not a stupid guy and i feel the same way.
moish, can you please explain yourself? I think you’re saying something valid, I’m just not exactly sure what you’re responding to.
~a~
itzik: so what about the gemara (or whatever it is) that say s that if u want to get better hang out with a better crowd? how can ppl who want to do that do it if the more religious crowd wont let them hang out with them? doesnt every person deserve a second chance?
moish: im a guy not a girl…just out of curiousty what made u think i was a girl?
anonymisss, people think they can scare kids with threatening hell and what not. you wish it works and it’s the biggest turn-off in the world. the only things that are important are friends. that’s all they have, right? i know guys (and girls) that are willing to take ANY kind of flack for their friends. it’s the most awesome thing in the world.
after trusting and getting so close to your friends you think any kid is gonna ditch because some adult said he’s gonna burn forever if he keeps doing drugs? not a chance. he’ll take the gehenom and stick with his friends.
itzik didn’t start with hell yet, but all those negative comments were enough to turn ME off and he wasn’t even talking to me.
wow that was long.
teen, that’s funny i dunno. can i ask how old you are?
and teen, at the same time it says to stay away from bad neighbors. who follows halacha, you or them? they do, so they avoid you. if THEY thought that YOU would be a good influence they’d be chasing after you.
Itzick,
What are you talking about? We have a responsability to help another jew if they need it. If a kid dosnt keep kosher and by humiliating himher you cause them to turn to drugs and they destroy their life it is wrong to humiliate them. Alot of people who go off the derech dont want to be part of the community because of the greatness of the community itself, but rather because their family and friends are part of it and they despite evreything still like their family.
What do you gain by making them feel bad?
Would you rather your kid be frei and o.d. on heroin, or be frei and at least live?
the only things that are important are friends. that’s all they have, right?
That’s what I thought you were getting at.
You are %100 correct, moish. Friends are crucial for everyone, especially at this age/stage in life. Please don’t ditch them.
I think that most kids know what’s right and wrong. They don’t need to hear that they’ll burn in geheninom for ___________, take your pick-drugs, guys/girls, etc. They know it good and well.
Friends are the for the most part the only ones who will accept their peers any way they come, no matter what, and protect them come what may. Every person needs to know that there are people like that in their life. Keep your friends.
ps: Just because one sticks with his/her friends, one need not remain the way s/he is for the remainder of his/her life. It is possible to change within the same framework of friends, keeping those same friends.
~a~
haha yeh it was im 17
i guess so basically its a catch 22 or vicious circle or whatever u want to call it
Itzik_s,
In an earlier post in this thread you wrote: “…but for now Shygetz Aross!”
Are you saying you would use that expression to refer to another Jew? If so, I think that’s wrong and counterproductive. If not, I’m sorry I misunderstood.
teen, no way! hey if i knew you were a guy i might not have stood up for you like that… jk
and you’re really 17? that’s funny i’m a little younger- i’m only 16.
anonymisss, i KNOW i’m 100% correct. it’s my life!
Itzik – I think you are oversimplifying the issue of friends. Its not always easy to move from group to group even if you change. Often, you have already been labeled as part of the “XYZ” crowd and sort of get stuck there.
I have quite a bit more to say, but I need to think about how to verbalize it well, so this is sort of a half post.
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