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Before Israel went into Gaza, America advised Israel of what to expect during the ground war, with a certain casualty rate. Israel experienced 10% of that casualty rate, 90% fewer.
As well, yesterday’s heavy bombardment by Iran did much less damage than anticipated. One misfired drone hit Shiraz in Iran and caused more damage than was done in Israel. These are undoubtedly open miracles.Frum Zionists will point to these open miracles as proof that Hashem backs Israel and supports Zionism. They of course acknowledge Hashem’s hand in this and thank Hashem.
If you are Brisk or regular chareidi, these miracles don’t mean support for the Zionist entity- they are miracles performed by Hashem for the sake of the frum yidden in Eretz Yisroel. You can acknowledge the miracles and thank Hashem for them without being a Zionist.
If you are Satmar/ NK (much different behavior but same belief system) and go by the traditional meaning of “maaseh Satan” then these don’t bother you. They are miracles performed by Satan, no different than 1948 and 1967.No matter how strong or powerful the miracle, it can be ignored as nothing more than a powerful Satan.
If, however, you use the revisionist “Maaseh Satan” definition here of “they are bederech hateva, not actual miracles”, then these recent open miracles are a strong kashye on your belief system. You are forced to praise Israel’s defense systems rather than acknowledge the open miracle, which aligns you with secular Israelis.
LT, there were no open miracles during the Iranian attack. There was nothing she’lo ke’derech ha’teva.
LerntminTayrah:
You might want to learn the Satmar Rav on the subject before putting words in his mouth that he never said (and never wrote).
Satmar and Brisk both agree that these miracles are, of course, in merit of the Jews and despite that Zionist entity, not CH”V because of that Zionist entity.The Satmar Rav ZY”A went further in pointing out that although the Zionist victories in their wars were conventional military victories, which is simple fact, Hashem did give the Satan permission to fool many into believing the Zionist lies and propaganda about those victories being miracles. That is the maaseh Satan, not the actual – and very conventional – victories.
פרסומי ניסא has 2 meanings. Simply to publicize. Or more nuanced to publicize that there was a miracle.
Hakatan,
That Israel achieved total surprise in its attack on the Arab air forces in June 1967 was anything but conventional. Only an ideologue such as yourself would deny reality.The CIA predicted the Israeli victory in ’67 before the war started, almost to a tee how it played out.
>>>The Satmar Rav ZY”A went further in pointing out that although the Zionist victories in their wars were conventional military victories, which is simple fact, Hashem did give the Satan permission to fool many into believing the Zionist lies and propaganda about those victories being miracle
This is about as contradictory of a belief as you can get. If the victories were really such conventional military victories then they would be regarded as such even outside of both Satmar and the militantly atheistic anti religious groups who claim they were. How did the Satan have the ability to fool anyone because of them?
Don’t forget that it was the Zionists who *lost* Jewish access to the Kosel in 1948. Until 1948 Yidden were able to go to the Kosel.
Itchie Meir levin was not a “rav.” He was an askan. A good askan, but also not above criticism, and had made errors regarding his presentation of Agudah’s daas Torah on the world stage.
Reb Yaakov never said such a thing. It’s laughable that a gadol would change because of a simple observation, not that that was ever the discussion to begin with.
What he DID say, speaking as a talmid of his yeshiva, is the exact opposite – when the satmar rov’s sefer on the 6 day war was published, they met (which occured often, as they lived near each other at the time).
The satmar rov had written that even if his sefer changes the mind of one yid, it’ll be worth it. Reb Yaakov told him, “I’m the one yid.”
Blogs are full of nonsense. If you want to know what gedolei yisroel held/said, talk to their talmidim!
>>>The CIA predicted the Israeli victory in ’67 before the war started, almost to a tee how it played out.
This is baloney. I tried very hard to find this on the CIA website like I was told I would. It wasn’t there. Nor anywhere else either. The only source I could find for such a claim other than a certain anti-Zionist propagandist who told me I would find it on the CIA website was a clearly fake website pretending to be the CIA. I did however find an interview with one of the CIA men who was involved in assessing the situation at the time . He said the unanimous assessment of everyone in the CIA at the time was a six week war if Israel attacks, and an eight week war if the Arabs attack. With somewhere between 10,000 to 30,000 Israelis killed r’l
@Avira
Did Reb Yaakov Zatztal say to which way he changed his mind? I have heard that what he meant was the opposite. Can,t confirm this but I remember hearing such a shmuah>>>Itchie Meir levin was not a “rav.” He was an askan…..Reb Yaakov never said such a thing. It’s laughable that a gadol would change because of a simple observation, not that that was ever the discussion to begin with.
Rav Yaakov wasn’t bigger than Shmaya and Avtalyon and what does the Mishna in Edoyus say about them changing their mind because of what they herd from two lowly (on the social ladder)people?
But I’ll let you explain it. Why indeed when Yidden re killed is it attributed to Hashem and when they are saved is it attributed to the Sotton?
In general Rav Yaakov was no follower of the Satmar Shito on Zionism. To put it mildly.
In Mesivta TV the Rav Hamashgiach shlita spoke about the raid on Entebbe where YN was killed. RMW held that Entebbe was עין טבע.
Anyone remember that?
Reb Yaakov held very highly of the views of the Satmar Rebbe.
Smerel, if we’re talking about eidus(which is what the two women from the shaar ha’aspah gave) then you’d be correct. You’d also be correct if levin said a shitel torah, or quotes a chazal.
Big people listen to anyone.
That’s not the case here. Levin allegedly said a very simple observation, and rav Yaakov, it is claimed, changed his mind from it. That doesn’t happen with gedolei Torah.
Lernt – proving a blog entry with some article in a lukewarm zionist /charedi lite/ MO forum doesn’t help anything. I was close with talmidim of rav yaakov, including rav belsky; it’s all sheker.
Where is this piece in emes leyaakov?
I also cannot speak for Rav Shmuel and the wzo, but those who allowed it did not say that zionism is any less bad than it used to be. They said that it was a token statement affirming zionism.
Most gedolei yisroel were extremely against that psak, as we have a mesorah from all the gedolim to not join the wzo; in fact, this was a major element of Agudah’s shitos.
That article about R Kamenetsky does not have an exact citation and the article author is niftar, but here is maybe a related reference :
. Yaakov Kamenetsky (Emet le-Yaakov, Shemot 12:2) who explains several curious aspects of Second Temple religious life based on the notion that the Sages recognized that the purpose of Bayit Shenit was to strengthen themselves for the coming exile.LT, Israel has a very sofisticated air-defence system. Ukraine does not. Read the news. Taking down all those projectiles by Israel all the allies is not she’lo ke’derech ha’teva, is not an open miracle.
About the the casualty rate, I do not know enough about the issue, but the Arabs are not good soldiers. So…smerel and other Zionist apologists:
No, it’s not at all contradictory. The facts are that the Zionists won their wars in a conventional military sense, not as a miracle. There were, of course, miracles on an individual level (as there are all over the world every second) during those wars, but, again, the plain historical facts are that those wars were conventional victories. And, yes, that’s on the CIA’s web site, thatThe Maaseh satan part of it is, as the Satmar Rav writes in Al HaGeulah, that the Zionists claimed that it was a miracle and fooled people into becoming Zionists as a result. That was the maaseh satan. Also, on a related note, the Brisker Rav famously stated that “the State they have managed to achieve is the greatest victory of the Satan since the sin of the golden calf”. And Brisk is very exacting in the words they use.
Again, regardless of what you have or have not found, the Zionists won a standard military victory in 1967. Their war in 1948 was much less of a cakewalk, though the Zionists had purchased close to 100 Million Dollars (in 1940s money) to fund their army for that war. So that victory was no miracle either, as West Point’s books on the subject will also tell you, if you care to see military facts rather than Zionist propaganda.
Finally regarding what some gedolim might have held in 1948 and 1967, when the only “facts” available were Zionist lies, you can’t blame them for getting it wrong then. And the WZO fiasco was based on a totally fake heter, as Rav Aharon Feldman pointed out in writing at the time and later publicly denounced at the following Agudah convention; there was no “teshuva” ever written to discuss how it could overturn a wall-to-wall mesorah for a century unlike the millions of teshuvos that Rav Moshe and others wrote on matters far less severe. This is sick and sad.
My experience with hakatan taught me that any fact or shita quoted by him is suspect.
It has to be checked in its original source with critical thinking applied.
One cannot take it on face value.The difference between secular Zionists and Satmar is that the secular Zionists say כחי ועוצם ידי and Satmar says כחם ועוצם ידיהם.
Mdd, Ukraine has lots of great systems by now, just not enough of them for the territory it has. Maybe if Ukrainians abandon their villages and bunch all together in an area size of Israel, they’ll be able to protect themselves. But as it is, at least Israel (and partners) downing all these projectiles over the heads of Arab countries is the most economical way to get rid of them. If Parsiim would not send them towards ISrael, they’ll sell them to Russkies and get something even more dangerous in exchange. So, gam zu l’tova, however horrifying it is.
During the Six Day War, when it was announced that the IDF had captured the Har Habayis, R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky went into the Beis Medrash of Torah v’Daas, made a Shehechiyanu, and recited Hallel Hagadol.
Many years ago I read an article in an atheistic science magazine analyzing how was it possible that the 39 scud missiles shot by Iraq at Israel during the gulf war caused so little damage. It was a real scientific analysis contrasting general times scud missiles were shot at similar distances to places with similar population density and similar defense systems and the intrinsic power of a scud missile to cause damage. As a science magazine they acknowledged that the results should have been very different based on the factors involved . As an atheistic magazine they attributed it in part to random good luck. Even though such publication don’t usually believe in random good luck. That article belongs in The Empty Wagon but ch”v to consider it Torah Haskafa
LT, is that professor a Mizrachi kanoi? At most, it was a neis nistar. An open miracle is something totally she’lo ke’derech ha’teva! get it through your head! And, again, I do not know how unusual it really was. There are people I do not trust about such a situation. Again, Ukraine’s air-defences are NOT on the same level like the Israeli ones.
>>>the Brisker Rav famously stated that “the State they have managed to achieve is the greatest victory of the Satan since the sin of the golden calf”.
The Brisker Rav never said such garbage. I learned in Brisk for three years. I heard endless anti-Zionist sentiment but I never heard any Brisker claim the Brisker Rav ever said such a thing.
I did hear that sentiment from other anti-Zionist zealots and that sentiment is basically creating a new religion out of their hatred for Zionism. Yeruvem Ben Novat making ACTUAL idolatrous cows and forcing people to worship them, Menashe burning every Sefer Torah in all of Eretz Yisroel, the churban of the first and second beis hamakdash etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. nu nu that still isn’t as bad as the state of Israel . Because the issue for those who say such things is their hatred for Zionism. Not Torah. It’s not about Torah anymore. It’s only an independent hatred for Zionism that can cause someone to believe such a thing
LT, is the Iron Dome performance also a miracle? An open one?
LerntminTayrah:
Whatever nissim did or didn’t happen in the Iranian barrage against Israel still do not change the facts:
nissim happen only in the zechus of frum Jews who need those nissim
Zionist wars were conventional military victoriesSmerel:
Yes, he did. Rabbi MP Lorincz quoted that from him, as I recall. That’s the same Rabbi Lorincz who misreported to the Brisker Rav what the Satmar Rav didn’t say. If you believe him as gospel truth to attach the Satmar Rav who never said the Satan won the Zionist wars then you can also believe him that the Brisker Rav made this statement, too.Did any of the tziyonim here yet acknowledge that they were peddling a bubble maaisa about Rav Yaakov saying at the Agudah convention that he changed his mind from supporting the Satmar Rebbe’s view to opposing it in response to what the “askan” Itchie Meyer Levin said?
>>>Rabbi MP Lorincz quoted that from him, as I recall. That’s the same Rabbi Lorincz who misreported to the Brisker Rav
Oh, of course. When Rabbi Lorincz is being quoted to you about what the Briker Rav told him it must be true.(I read what he wrote about his encounters with the Brisker Rav in his autobiography and don’t recall any such quote) When he himself is talking to the Brisker Rav himself he misrepresented the truth…
Joe, there’s been no proof that the story isn’t real. I heard the same story years ago, although I forgot from whom.
For those who do not want Zionist military to be the source of the nissim, note that US also used several amti-missile weapons that were never deployed before and were also successful. So, you can attribute the nissim to general zechus of EY. You can ask the USS Carney personnel where exactly the missile was aiming to figure out whether it is zechus of a particular yeshiva, whether charedi or hesder.
LT, so far you are the only person that I hear this from. Are you an aerospace engineer? Nobody else is saying this. Okay, by some people everything is a neis nigle.
And what happened with the nissin on October 7?DaMoshe: I asked two people who were at that Agudah convention. Both said it is a complete bubbe maaisa. One of them actually started laughing when told this “story”.
smerel:
The fact is that, as per his book, what Rabbi Lorincz claimed to the Brisker Rav in the Satmar Rav’s name is against what the Satmar Rav writes explicitly in his sefarim and something the Satmar Rav never said.LMT:
So, in other words, your mischaracterization of maaseh Satan and the Satmar Rav’s use of that is of no consequence since – who cares – there were big nissim done. Well, the Satmar Rav might care. As should you, if Torah Jews looked askance at the Satmar Rav as a result of your mischaracterization of him.My experience with hakatan taught me that any fact or shita quoted by him is suspect.
It has to be checked in its original source with critical thinking applied.Mdd1, did you bother to check? LMT suggested to Google the first paragraph. I did, and found this article. I already passed it on, to bring more thanks to Hashem when people realize what a Ness just took place.
You can, of course, go on worshipping the sun.
Raabbi Lorincz keeps his hazaka of kasruth .
Notwithstanding katans unfounded allegations.
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