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1) How has the NASI Project been working out over the last few years?
2) Has there been a marked decrease in the number of older single girls?
3) Are weddings today much more likely to be between a close-in-age Choson and Kallah than it used to be 7 years ago?
Being as how the crisis has little or nothing to do with the age gap, I’d be surprised if they succeeded in anything other than getting their names in the papers.
what shidduch crisis?
There was and is a shidduch crisis.
shidduch crisis /?i-duch krai-sis/ noun: the condition of insufficiency of marital opportunities for single girls prevalent in our community.
There was a great article about this in Time magazine several months ago (just google time magazine mormons shadchan marriage). In short it pointed out that the frum community grows by several percent per year. For 100 babies born in 2000, there are roughly 110 babies born in 2003, for example. If men tend to marry women several years younger, then for every 50 men that will turn 21 in 2021, there will be roughly 55 women turning 18. So of course there won’t be “enough” men for all of the women.
The article points out that in the chassidic community, in which men and women are the same age at marriage, there is no shidduch crisis.
This, to me, sounds like the best explanation of what’s going on.
OK, I missed that.
BTW, in answer to your question, it seems to me (anecdotally) that it’s a bit more common for closer in age shidduchim to take place, but the typical shidduch still has a gap of several years, because for the most part, the roshei yeshiva to whom the bochurim listen are not pushing them to go out younger or to insist on a similar age for shidduchim.
I think they want them learning for longer; I can only guess why they don’t push them to look for slightly older than 19-20 year old girls.
Perhaps the gap has been closed a bit, but I don’t think by much.
i dont know why your bringing articles from time magazine they’re just a lib rag. and as far as the age gap being the cause of the supposed shidduch crisis, the theory might make sense if it were carved in stone that every boy got married at 23 to an 18 yr old but think for a second, of the last 5 people that you know that got married recently how many fit that 5 yr gap?
the head of NASI is now on the Yated shidduch forum not sure why hes an objective panelist, NASI seems to only deal with the girls in shidduchim
5 year gap? No one’s claiming that’s the norm.
i once saw an ad from them that if your son is ready to go to eretz yisrael then hes ready for shidduchim. obviously either nobody at NASI went to EY or none of them got married because they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. i plan on going to EY this coming zman or the next and dont feel ready at all to get married not for a good few yrs and all the guys my age feel the same way!
whats the difference fact is theres no set age for a boy to get married and their numbers only work if its exact my sister married a guy 27 and was 20 and 2 other sisters got married around 22 to guys maybe a yr or 2 older
I don’t think that ad was from NASI.
Joseph, the reason for the crisis is the fact that parents are put in charge of their children’s shiduchim and have inapt requirements for their perspective daughter in law. The age gap only serves to allow their demands to be met; hence, the age gap itself is not the issue but rather a means by which to nourish the underlying problem. Having boys dating earlier will not achieve anything, as long as it’s still acceptable for older boys to marry much younger girls. So the only way to stop the ctisis is to either keep parents away from their children’s shiduchim, or to have a more tortuous approach, which would be to somehow outlaw older boys from marrying single girls, which would be extremely insane, and anyway, isn’t what NASI is trying to do.
SDD, if it were only socially acceptable to marry a girl a few years younger, but there were no parental “inapt requirements”, would there be a shidduch crisis?
BTW, keeping parents away from their children’s shidduchim is really no more realistic than outlawing age gap shidduchim.
SDD, what exactly are you suggesting?
If we “somehow outlaw older boys from marrying single girls” (your words) then are you suggesting-
-that they don’t marry at all?
-that they marry those who were previously married but no longer are?
-or what?
Don’t feel bad though… Your idea makes about as much sense as most of the other ideas on the subject.
DY, .
“BTW…”
A) Why not? B) Don’t confuse insane and unrealistic.
Okay, I also think keeping parents away from their kids’ shidduchim is insane. Probably even more than outlawing age gap shidduchim (which is definitely insane).
It is unrealistic because nobody in “authority” would suggest or legislate it, and nobody would listen.
If there continued to be an age gap, how would there not continue to be a shidduch crisis?
Okay. I think keeping parents away from their children’s shiduchim is not only sane, it’s smart.
If there continued to be an age gap, how would there not continue to be a shidduch crisis?
There are two things: 1) the fact that boys start dating later than girls do 2) the hakpada that boys’ parents have that their son shouldn’t marry someone older.
#2 is a direct consequence of parents being in charge, and if parents are not involved, that problem will go away. The #1 problem is only a problem as far as you take #2. In words, I mean that if boys would date older girls, the fact that they start later wouldn’t matter.
If boys would start shiduchim earlier, and the insane hypothetical law outlawing marrying a younger girl were to be enacted, but parents would still be in charge of the shiduchim, there probably would be improvement, but there would still be a general crisis, spread out equally among the boys and girls. When there’s an equal amount of unmarried boys and girls, it would result in everyone getting married eventually, the emphasis on “eventually”.
I don’t know why you think boys care less about unimportant criteria for a shidduch than do parents.
Regardless, I think it’s very far fetched to say (as I think you’re implying) that the age gap is a product of parental involvement. I think in the litvish yeshiva system, the natural age at which boys are ready to get married is about 22-23, and girls 19-20, and this is the cause of the gap. It has little or nothing to do with parental involvement.
DY, did anyone ever offer a single shred of evidence that there are more single girls than boys? they always just bandy about numbers which i admit do add up on paper but who says their true!?
to me the whole shidduch crisis seems very much like the debate on global warming, namely that anyone who dares question the supposed facts gets slammed down and shut up by everyone as they start screaming oy vey all those poor singles! thats very nice when your saying tehilim but its totally removed from a rational debate.
There actually is “a shred” of evidence, but as you say, the numbers do add up regardless.
Whether or not the possibility of the numbers not actually being as uneven as the projection justifies the expense of doing a thorough study has been a matter of debate on the CR, but the gvirim have apparently voted no with their wallets.
(I’ve had this sitting around for a while now, since
shortly after I saw the ad with the information…)
An organization, by offering $10,000 for a successful match
between a girl* of age 25 or older and a boy within a year of
her age or younger, was able to bring about 58 engagements,
out of 882 couples who met. In other words, 93.4% of the
shidduchim did not result in an engagement.
*(Only if not previously married,
and living in North America)
golfer, that was a typo. It should have said “younger girls” and not “single girls”
DY:
I don’t know why you think boys care less about unimportant criteria for a shidduch than do parents.
I speak from experience. Many shiduchim have been turned down by parents wanting things that didn’t make a difference to their children. Everyone–parents and children alike–will have their “thing” or “things” they’re makpid on, some of which are understandable, some of which aren’t. The result of parents dictating their children’s shiduchim is more of both types.
I think in the litvish yeshiva system, the natural age at which boys are ready to get married is about 22-23, and girls 19-20, and this is the cause of the gap. It has little or nothing to do with parental involvement.
First of all, I disagree with that assumption that the “natural age at which they’re ready to get married…” I don’t know if you meant it like that or if you merely meant that “the age at which they typically start dating.” If you meant the former, please tell me which psychological test you used to determine their readiness, whom you tested, and how you arrived at your results.
Second of all, age fastidiousness and fastidiousness about other nonsensical things is what makes the age gap be a problem, and that was
brought about through parents.
Joseph, I once asked a chassidish acquaintance of mine if it’s true that they don’t have any shiduch crisis, and he replied, “we don’t have a problem with the age; we have our own problems, though.” He didn’t elaborate. So that fits in with what I claim that were the age gap to be closed, there would still be problems. I also don’t know how much you can prove from chassidim as it is; the whole nature of a husband/wife relationship is different than ours, which is why we have our system and they theirs, in the first place. The fact that parental intervention doesn’t cause them problems wouldn’t necessarily prove anything about us.
hiram, I haven’t conducted a study on the matter, but from my own experience and from what others tell me, a boy’s options are a lot more than a girl’s, and often a girl is stuck without any shiduchim coming their way.
Many shiduchim have been turned down by parents wanting things that didn’t make a difference to their children.
And many shidduchim have been turned down by boys wanting things that really don’t make a difference to a marriage. And many boys have overlooked flaws which do..
I don’t know if you meant it like that or if you merely meant that “the age at which they typically start dating.”
I meant that, and it’s not based on psychology, it’s based on someone whose opinion I highly value who dealt with too many bad marriages caused by the boy’s immaturity, and (unrelated) to the point at which one’s learning style is established enough to get married.
Of course Chasidim have their own problems with Shidduchim, it’s compared to Krias yam suf for a reason. Virtually no one has it easy.
But the problems with Chasidim are definitely not on such a large scale.
Basically, the not “perfect” or (a much smaller percentage) working boys have a very hard time and some stay single into their late twenties or so. And similar to the litvish older girls, older boys especially if their ruchnios is low are considered “damaged goods”. And not being married for a not so solid boy definitely hinders his ruchnios, so it’s a vicious cycle.
And yes “pickiness” is always blamed when one doesn’t find a shidduch, no matter who does the picking.
And there are never enough Shadchanim…
And many shidduchim have been turned down by boys wanting things that really don’t make a difference to a marriage.
No one is infalliable, as I already said here
but having parents in charge makes the insane demands come from someone other than the one whose opinion actually counts. I didn’t mention it earlier, but parents being in charge also has a major drawback from parents’ laziness and/or insistence on federal investigations on each potential shidduch.
it’s based on someone whose opinion I highly value who dealt with too many bad marriages caused by the boy’s immaturity, and (unrelated) to the point at which one’s learning style is established enough to get married.
I’m really curious if this respected person happens to know whether or not Israeli couples have more shalom bayyis issues than American families. (This whole thing is really irrelevant to this thread, but I am curious.) And I don’t know what you mean with that use of parenthesis; please remember that learning wasn’t mentioned in this thread thus far.
And similar to the litvish older girls, older boys especially if their ruchnios is low are considered “damaged goods”. And not being married for a not so solid boy definitely hinders his ruchnios, so it’s a vicious cycle.
so there we have it. Although they start shiduchim at the same age, there is still one gender who is more affected by age than the other gender.
Me: And similar to the litvish older girls, older boys especially if their ruchnios is low are considered “damaged goods”. And not being married for a not so solid boy definitely hinders his ruchnios, so it’s a vicious cycle.
SDD: so there we have it. Although they start shiduchim at the same age, there is still one gender who is more affected by age than the other gender. (Sorry I can’t copy your inline quotes.)
That’s not quite what I meant — if I understand you correctly — perhaps I wasn’t clear enough. Both older girls and older boys lose their “market value” with age, however there are probably more boys than girls that reach that stage.
I’m really curious if this respected person happens to know whether or not Israeli couples have more shalom bayyis issues than American families.
He was dealing with Americans.
please remember that learning wasn’t mentioned in this thread thus far
I mentioned it because it’s relevant to the age at which shidduchim typically start.
Joseph, even if your assumptions were correct, it doesn’t change how the shiduch crisis was caused. At the most, it means that there’s no feasible solution to the shiduch crisis. But, as it happens, every single thing you said was either wrong or entirely irrelevant.
1. Parents opinion counts.
FALSE!!! The child is getting married, not the parent; hence it’s their opinion that count. And it’s exactly your arrogant attitude (assuming you’re a parent–otherwise it’s your submissive attitude) which contributes to the crisis.
3. Parents are wiser.
Some parents are wiser. Some aren’t.
4. Parents are less likely to fall for infatuation of nonimportant attributes versus more important attributes.
False.
5. Investigations are critically important in shidduchim.
Undoubtedly, but there’s a limit to everything, and when it comes to a suggestion sitting on the shelf while the parents investigate, and in the meantime the other side moves on, the line was very much crossed.
Both older girls and older boys lose their “market value” with age, however there are probably more boys than girls that reach that stage.
So there you have it.
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