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That is assuming he really is a mechallel shabbos. An assumption that is predicated upon many fault lines.
The Rambam says: “However the children and the grandchildren of these errants, whose parents have misled them, those who have been born among the Karaites, who have reared them in their views; each is like a child who has been taken captive among them, who has been reared by them, and is not alacritous in seizing the paths of the commandments; his status is comparable to that of one who has been coerced. Even though he later learns that he is a Jew and becomes acquainted with Jews and [the Jewish] religion, he is nevertheless to be regarded as a person who is coerced, for he was reared in the erroneous ways [of his parents]…”
Jothar: According to what the Rambam says, what you said is totally wrong.
I don’t know what R’ Moshe says but it’s certainly more than what you wrote Jothar. If a tinok shenishba is expose to a frum Jew from speaking him 2 minutes on the phone, does he lose that status? What about seeing a Jew for two minutes? Doesn’t make any sense.
You also can’t decide that being exposed to a frum web site is equivalent to being exposed to Frum Jews.
I kept my mouth shut this whole time because I think this thread is pointless but I feel I have to say something now.
Nobody here knows anything. Everything you are saying is pure speculation based on circumstantial evidence. And even if you do have solid proof that someone is being Mechallel Shabbos, this thread will do nothing to help/stop him/her.
You don’t know the background of the poster you all think is being Mechallel Shabbos. You don’t know whether he/she is Jewish, frum, or a tinok shenishba. This thread is pointless as we don’t know all the information.
So stop playing detective and move on.
I heard in the name of the Chazon Ish that although, technically, one who encountered real udaism cannot be considered a inuk henishba anymore, these days are different. People are brought up with anti-Torah sentiments and they an’t be blaimed for that.
As to this situation I’m in full agreement with Cinderella.
Jothar: I agree
Actually the accused poster was clearly identified when the mods said he was from Australia and then subtitled a poster as “aussie”. And considering the evidence as stated was only a post on the borderline erev shabbos and borderline motzei shabbos and there being about only a 24 hour difference betweenthe two posts, so the assumption being one of themmust have been on shabbos, it is somewhat unconvincing.
Wow! Look what the Belzer Rebbe said this week:
_ _ _
I think public condemnation on a board and hints to someone who posts are embarassing and certainly NOT gentle, and damaging at the end because it incites to go in the other direction, and therefore almost as wrong as Chilul Shabbos itself.
Jothar, you don’t have to have the last word, unless you can admit that you made a mistake.
So, I hope the moderators have followed up on their brilliant detective work and have alerted the appropriate people.
Why the moderators shared this info with you is puzzling given that they are (almost always) very careful as it relates to lashon hara and rechilus and it served no toeles to tell you their suspicion and it led you to post it publicly which resulted in the fingering of a particular user as a mechallel shabbos, something which that user denies.
“The only things we’re arguing about is:”
You keep ignoring….
One can spoof an IP address.
You can keep changing your IP address by logging in and out of free proxy websites that are a dime a dozen online.
2 friends can share a log in ID and be on opposite ends of the world. Yes, it might be against the YWN TOS, but it can easily be done.
Nobody has any issues with you stading up for kavod shabbos. What I, and others, take issue with, is the labeling of a specific user as a mechallel shabbos based on the flimsiest of evidence, despite the denials of this user.
How many hours and minutes *exactly* were there between the Friday post and the Saturday evening post?
I am pretty sure the poster identified himself. I had no idea who was being pointed to until one of the trollish type personalities started insisting it wasn’t him. Over and over. To the extent that I couldn’t figure out why he thought it was funny to do so. Had he been quiet, maybe nobody would have thought of him. And either way, I still have no clue who he is. Or even IF he is. So can we be done now? We can talk about laundry, or which chocolate coins are roundest, or what color patterns your kids made from their candles each night . . . the possibilities are endless.
You can keep changing your IP address by logging in and out of free proxy websites that are a dime a dozen online.
That would be $0.008333333333333333, which, I guess, is close enough to free. 😉
The poster only identified himself after a mod mentioned the so-called MS was posting from Australia AND then subtitled that poster as “Aussie”. So it was obvious who was being called out before said poster vigerously denied and protested being called a MS.
A person that is mechalel shabbos doesn’t speak like this;-
I find it impossible to believe this poster is a mechallel shabbos given the lack of evidence you mods fail to put forward..slightly corrupt. I agree with ciderella, this is funny in a very pathetic way,-I expected better of you mods! I know this post won’t make it through, and it just goes to show what you guys are protesting about is absolutely baseless….
“Half
::::QT Aussie Troll::::
I honestly don’t know who this Jemmapuddleduck poster is… Mods what are you trying to cause over here????
I was enjoying this site and gained alot here, however If you don’t want me here for whatever reason just say it outright, don’t try to kill me in all sorts of ways.. Which you have inevitably already done! I tried keeping the peace earlier in a different thread however this constant friction is too hard for me to bear… I am not used to this sort of aggression… please take your anger and frustration elsewhere until it subsides..
I really don’t mind being called a troll when I’m not and try my best not to be, being acused of having other screan names when I don’t, being called a ‘cute Aussie’ I’d say was parevly fine, But when I am being accused of being mechalel shabbos that is too much for me to handle! May this false accusation be a kapparah for all my aveiros and may all my tefilos be answered bekorov in this merrit! Amen!!
cinderella
If the shoefits…. -“This is funny in a very pathetic way.”
when bar kamsa was at the party and the rich man embarresed him in public for no reason what bothered him the most was that noone else bothered to stand up for him! they just stood by in amusement and thought it was funny in a very pathetic way!! & that’s what inevitably caused the destruction of the beis hamikdash. sorry to break it to you cinderrella and others but tzinus chinum is a very serious matter and shouldn’t be taken lightly!
Posted 1 week ago #”
this half poster doesn’t seem to care what you are accusing him of..-so prehaps he is a mechalel…who knows.. he seemingly is upset about the lack of derech eretz you guys are formalating around here..
The odds of two people using the same proxy are actually pretty high. Please stop practising IPology, you’re not good at it.
You just don’t get it. You can spoof an IP address. You can share that information with all your friends.
The point is, you (the moderators) have the flimsiest of evidence to label someone a mechalel shabbos yet did so.
I’m not certain evidence was offered that this user was even a troll.
In all likelihood this person is back on YWN with another IP address and another username reading this and laughing at how we are still talking about this.
When I lived in Lakewood I had one of the frum internet providers and I know they assigned all their users the same ip address, including my parents in NY had the same ip I had in NJ. Other internet providers do the same, even though it isn’t the most common method. So, yes, it is quite possible and very reasonable that two or more users share an ip. Even if they live in different cities.
So one guy might have been in Melbourne and another in another Australian city with a earlier or later Zman Shabbos. Hence the 25 hour difference.
Although, we still don’t know the *exact* alleged difference in hours and minutes between the Friday and Sat. Night post.
This is the last thing I’ll say about this.
I applaud your stand against chillul shabbos, however, it shouldn’t come at the expense of labeling someone a mechallel shabbos on the flimsiest of evidence.
The only troll I plan on talking about now, is the one from the 3 billy goats gruff.
Jothar, I had the same IP as “big fish”, since we both used the same mobile application that used the same proxy. Real-Brisker had it, too. In the past, I’ve been labeled on this site for as long as it took the staff to figure that out. Until that point my posts were manipulated to make me look dishonest. It has happened on this site a couple of years before that, as well — as “big fish” pointed out at the time.
Jothar, you say you have no idea who it is, but yet you’re calculating when it’s Shabbes in Australia, whilst someone has been given the subtitle Aussie. You’re convinced that you’re doing something Leshem Shamayim, but most of us think differently. You’re not endearing yourself, neither to us, nor to the Ribono Shel Olam. Your motives are not genuine, so stop twisting and turning, nobody is impressed.
My email address has emails coming in at 9:00 in the morning, I know since they come through on my phone. And they say that they’ve come through at 4 in the afternoon. I wanted to see if my emailing system was just downloading them *extremely* slowly.. I was concerned also since I was getting emails from frum people “on shabbos”-so I decided to be dan lekaf zechus & check out my side of things by emailing myself from a different account, I did and it came up onto my inbox as a totally different time of day.. people aren’t perfect, and that is precisely why the systems formed by the human hand is nowhere near the handywork of hakodosh baruch hu. everyone makes mistakes. there is nothing wrong with it as long as you can recognise where the issues are within yourself and rectify them. if you can’t apologise and are always placing the blame on others there is some serious work there to be done. There is no harm in man saying sorry. Mods you are doing a wonderful job in the constant maintanance of the site, however You are not G-d.
It’s okay if Jothar or the mods are moida they made a big ta’os. They guy denied it and the evidence is flimsy.
This would have been a non-issue. Jothar made a comment. so what?
Jothar: “I never identified anybody. My mecha’ah was perfectly justified and well-measured”.
Justified and well- measured based on which posek? Please offer name.
“Just” as justified and well- measured as Charedis who spit at chilonis.
I don’t know what exactly Jothar is going on here that he is so certain that there was Chilul Shabbos Chas V’Shalom. Here is what I have found.
There was a poster called Ice-cream uscream we all…. His last post before being blocked was:
Friday 2011/11/18 00:07:25 NY Time, that is 12:07am Friday morning in NY. The post is at:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/petition-to-ignore-a-certain-someone?#post-324948
I will not post the exact IP to protect his/her privacy. But this is what I found on http://whatismyipaddress.com/ip-lookup
Country: Australia
State/Region: Victoria
City: Melbourne
ISP: OPTUS INTERNET – RETAIL
According to:
Shkia was 8:12pm on Friday 11/18/2011 in Melbourne, of course this can change based on exact location.
According to:
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/difference.html?p1=152
Melbourne is 16 hours ahead then NY,.
Perhaps it was only 15 because of Daylight Savings Time so 12:07am in NY would be 4:07pm Friday afternoon in Melbourne, way before the 8:12pm shkia. If there was no DST then it would be 5:07pm, also before shkia. It is summer Down Under and Shabbos starts late.
What Jothar and Mod007 might have been referring to was the fact that there are often posts from similar IPs Saturday morning NY time, around 9:30am, this would be around 2:30am Sunday morning Motzei Shabbos in Australia which is way after Shabbos is over as well.
So as far as I’m concerned there has been no known Chillul Shabbos.
Acquitted of all charges of Chillul Shabbos!
Still guilty of being an annoying troll 🙂
For the record, as far as I can tell, none of the “Aussie Trolls” have the same IP address, they all have similar IPs (same prefix), and all point to Melbourne, Australia according to the lookup but they all have different IPs. The posters themselves change their own IP often as well so it seems he/she/they are using a service that is constantly switching IPs. This could be a normal ISP thing or they might be using a library or something. This is very normal, nothing suspicious about it.
Jothar was ASSUMING that these “Aussie Trolls” were all using the same IP, when you assume…
I still think that they are all the same person or few people considering their very similar style.
tactful – this half poster… YOU MEAN YOURSELF?
Jothar: “So my rav was the Chofetz Chaim”
Every single situation is different. They have a call-in number. Id speak to a live Rov and explain what you have proof of, what you plan on doing or saying, and what the chance of change/improvement/effectiveness is. Then I’d move on that advice. Its not that simple. You make it clear that there was no live Rov involved when you shot those hurtful accusatory words.
Jothar wrote:
I hear from the mods that they have pretty solid evidence that one of the trolls here is a mechalel shabbos.
Did he hear this or didn’t he??????
We seriously need to chill out on this tar and feathering/ online pogrom business.
As of recent date, the site is batting zero (0 for 2) on the most publicized cases. Yet, they were pursued, against warnings, with the utmost conviction and determination.
Mechila is in order again.
While I am not saying you agree with me at all, thank you YW Moderator 42 for looking into this complex thing and explaining it with clarity.
Why has this thread run on so long?
If the mods knew there was no chilul Shabbos involved, why did they allow Jothar to rave and rant about a mechalel Shabbosnik? And why was an Australian poster put to shame?
Why has this thread run on so long?
It might prevent a reoccurence of Kol Halbin es Pnai Chaveiro…and Lashon Hara.
Azolis, the thread seems to be perpetuating the LH and malbin pnai chaveiro, not preventing it.
moi aussi:
Jothar wrote:
I hear from the mods that they have pretty solid evidence that one of the trolls here is a mechalel shabbos.
Did he hear this or didn’t he??????
He thought he heard it. Jothar hears what he wants to hear. He assumes that Joseph is a mechalel Shabbos. He assumes Joseph is the Aussie Troll. He assumes that moi aussi is Joseph. He hears that there are posts “on Shabbos” (NY time) by the Aussie Troll and moi aussi. So he puts it all together into a story that he likes which is that Joseph is sitting in Brooklyn posting on Shabbos.
As far as I know, this is not the case. Joseph may be many things but, as far as I know, a mechalel Shabbos is B”H not one of them. As far as I know, Joseph is not the Aussie Troll, nor is he moi aussi, nor are those two the same person. As far as I know, Joseph has not been posting in over a month, yet Jothar continues to see him in every thread.
That being said, I still don’t understand why people here were defending chillul Shabbos. To say that it didn’t happen is one thing (and probably correct), but to defend it is still very wrong.
Wow, Mod 42, I was reading that 00:07:25 as 7:25am instead of 12:25am. You are correct, none of the posts I thought might be on Shabbos were. I apologize to Half. Please be mochel me for suspecting you of chillul Shabbos. I was trying to be dan lchaf zchus that maybe you woke up in the middle of the night and started posting without realizing the day but this is a much better explanation. Sorry again. Troll on…
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