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Daasyochid, Joseph, I’m telling you what the Rebbe himself said. It’s ambiguous so you can take it any way you like. Therefore what they mean is irrelevant; you have no grounds to object to it.
Dy- like I mentioned, it is good to not act in certain ways, no matter how appropriate they are, as it can lead a person to to being like that in other situations as well, where it isnt warranted.
you said you came here to mock meshichist lubavitch. Fine.
Then you used a gematria, for a joke.
ה הַ אני תרולינג is gematria 770.How is that not doing exactly what you claim to be against? Misusing gematrios?
You may want to mock avoda zara, that doesnt meant to misuse the Torah to do so.
I think this is self evident
Did יעקב אבינו pass away?
Am I a koifer if I say מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים?
Am I a koifer if I say צדיקים במיתתן נקראים חיים?Daasyochid:
If they made a mistake because of some type of conspiracy theory, and there wasn’t a body, etc., you might be right.However, the reason they think he’s alive is because they think he can’t die, because he’s divine. That’s apikorsus.
That is simply not true. None of them say that. The reason they insist he’s alive is precisely because, like you, they reject the idea that moshiach can be from the deceased, and since they can’t let go of the idea that he will be moshiach they have convinced themselves that the funeral was an illusion, like Moshe Rabbenu’s funeral that the Jews saw at Mt Sinai, and he is really living in 770, hidden from unclean eyes, in keeping with what is found in the Ramban and in the Zohar that Moshiach will go through a period of hiding. That’s crazy, but it’s not apikorsus. They fully agree that the Rebbe is capable of dying, after he has done his job and brought the geulah to physical reality.
DY, it doesn’t matter what they mean by it, YOU can’t object to it because it can be understood in a normal way, so you should just understand it that way.
anyone familiar with the early history of jesus can compare his distance from judaism from that of middle of the road chabadniks.
Rebbetzin, Rebbi came home for kiddush, not havdala. That he was motzi his family, and therefore had to have a din of a living person at those moments, is in Sefer Chassidim. But the rest of the time he had a din of a meis.
In general, the definition of “dead” when we talk of tzadikim is vague. It’s clear that tzadikim are capable of things in “death” that most people are not. Not only Rebbi coming home to make kiddush, and all chachomim moving their lips when their torah is repeated, but also R Elozor br Shimon lying dead in his attic for years, answering shaylos!
(Though even normal people are capable of things that goyim and apikorsim deny. Yidden believe that the dead are aware of what happens to their bodies and at their graves, and that if you visit their graves and speak to them they listen.)
But they are still “meisim” because that is what the Torah calls them. Avrohom and Yitzchok are meisim. Moshe is a meis. R Elozor br Shimon is a meis, and was one even when he was in the attic. The only two people whose demise is recorded in Tanach without the word “meis” being used are Yaacov and Dovid. The gemoro discusses what exactly this means, and the conclusion is not clear, but Rashi understands it literally, that Yaacov and Dovid are lying in their graves, alive in the normal sense, even though they have nothing to eat, etc.
(On the other hand there are contexts in which the Torah uses “meisim” to mean resho’im, even when they’re physically alive, and “chayim” to mean tzadikim even when they’re physically dead.)
Also see the Shaloh on “Yaacov lo meis”, who explains that Yisroel died but Yaacov didn’t, because he had already died years earlier and had come back to life, so without Yisroel he was like people will be after techiyas hameisim.
There is no reason to believe that the Jesus of the NT was at all distant from Judaism. Nor that his talmidim who thought he was moshiach were distant from Judaism. The Jewish opposition to the “minim” doesn’t appear until after the new movement had been taken over by Greek antisemites, and the original Jewish leaders had died or been thrown out. That’s when we get Birchas Haminim.
(PS, to forestall arguments: the “Jewish sinner” whose spirit Onkelos called up is not named. It could be anyone. The “Yeshu Hanotzri” in mesechta Sanhedrin cannot be the Jesus of the NT; their stores are completely different, and he was at least 100 years too early. And “Ben Stodo” was about 100 years too late.)
Daas Yochid – “However, the reason they think he’s alive is because they think he can’t die, because he’s divine. That’s apikorsus.”
Twisting!
1. he’s alive is because they think he can’t die – no, they think he didn’t die – why do you make up that he “can’t” die?! they believe factually he didn’t.
2. because he’s divine – no, because he didn’t die just as we are alive (and yet not divine) so too they believe he is alive (yet not divine) – why do you make uo that he is divine?! Anyone that is alive is divine?!
3. That’s apikorsus – no, believing that a person is alive is not one of the 13 Ikrim of Ani Amamin. We are not required to believe that everyone must die. To believe that a human can live forever is not kefira.
You simply make up things as you build an imaginary building in mid air, rent out rooms and then complain that the imaginary tenants aren’t paying you their rent on time – ganovim!
I love how there are 3 threads on the same topic.
@rebbitzin I would like to publicly thank you for starting a new thread (I’m a bit jealous cuz I was thinking of doing it too but I couldnt think of a good topic)
@mods any idea for a good 4th one (a good name)
(Jealosy in kedusha is good)
Re: asking the dead to pray for us, this is minhag kol yisroel for all the generations. I know there are seforim that object, and say we should daven directly to Hashem in the niftar’s zechus, but the Jewish practise throughout all the generations is against them. They are like those who object to “machnisei rachamim” and “sholom aleichem”; the accepted halocho is not like them.
In particular, the Zohar explicitly rejects their objections, and says ודורש אל המתים refers to resho’im, who are considered “meisim” even when they are physically alive. It explicitly says when the world needs rain we should take a sefer torah to the cemetery and directly ask the meisim to intercede with Hashem to give us rain. It then says the local meisim who have been so alerted go to Chevron and inform those buried there about our plight, and together they go to the higher worlds and inform everyone there, and everyone prays for us, and Hashem makes it rain.
This is the Zohar, which klal yisroel has accepted as part of the Torah, so one who denies it is a kofer.
Milhouse,
“They fully agree that the Rebbe is capable of dying”
In three years the Rebbe will be 120 years old. Does this mean they’ll all change their minds and agree thereafter that the Rebbe clearly isn’t on this world?
Milhouse, the NT timeline can be fictitious. As such, you cannot rule out on that basis Yeshu Hanotzri or Ben Stodo at being the same person as the Christian deity.
They say something which normally means someone is alive, and they mean he’s alive, but I shouldn’t object to it because it can be twisted to mean something else?
Not twisted. It can mean something else, so you should simply understand it that way. What they mean by it is their problem, not yours. So long as what they are saying is not objectionable, you have no right to object to it.
Eliyohu has been alive and well past his 2000 birthday…does that mean he “clearly isn’t on this world”?
There is a source that all the Avos are merely “sleeping” in Chevron, and on certain occasions, they are “awakened”. (Even though they are under the ground and cannot breath etc)
The students of Rabbe Yehudah proclaimed that whomever says that Rebbe dies will be pieced by a sword.
Were they in “denial” ? We are talking about students of Rabbe Yehuda, ta’anoim? Assume they went to his levaya – yet refused to allow anyone to say that he “died”!
DY would call them “nut jobs”!
Also apikursim!
LMT: institutional nuttiness.
You know better than the talmidim of Rebbe?!
NEBECH.
(Disclaimer: I am not Lubavitch or even Chassidic, but I accept all frum Jews and c”v to spread hate and mock others just because I don’t understand or follow their ways)
Wasn’t there also “death certificates” (or the equivalent acknowledgement and recording of death) and burials and graves ? There is a precedent, but admit we don’t fully “understand” it in our minds, because it defies our logic.
Massive ‘my-side bias’ here. On all sides of the argument.
DaasYochid
“Am I a koifer if I say מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים?
Am I a koifer if I say צדיקים במיתתן נקראים חיים?No”
So if I say the Rebbe is alive because of these two quotes, am I a koifer?
Most Lubavitchers agree that the Rebbe was passed away,(besides a few that are living in denial) and they also write זי”ע, yes we did kria vechulu, but he can still be alive, it’s not a stira, a death certificate is what is koiveiah a person that he passed away, Torah is koiveiah.
So if your to call me a koifer because of a death certificate, you need major help.Who are we to decide which godol is equal or less then other tzaddikim?! Yiftach b’doro k’shmuel b’doro. Is Yiftach compareable to Shmuel? We might think no, but Chazal tell us yes.
DY – The fact that you think you can compare Rabbeinu Hakadosh (and Yaakov Avinu, Eliyahu Hanavi, etc.) to the Lubavicher Rebbe is a huge disrespect to them.
Who are we to decide which godol is equal or less then other tzaddikim?! Yiftach b’doro k’shmuel b’doro. Is Yiftach compareable to Shmuel? We might think no, but Chazal tell us yes.
We need to conform our daas and way of thinking to Torah. Beginning with the elementary rule that Chazal are right, Torah is emes and we are primitive ignoramuses.
“Disclaimer: I am not Lubavitch or even Chassidic, but I accept all frum Jews and c”v to spread hate and mock others just because I don’t understand or follow their ways)”
You give yourself way too much credit. Your posts carry no shortage of hatefulness and pretty one sided at that. The fact that you seem to believe your motives to be different doeant change what is coming out of your mouth, it is merely clouding your vision.
milhouse the jewish minhag is to go to kevarim and ask hashem to help us in the persons zechus
Noach Ish Tzadik…b’dorosov.
Torah calls him a tzadik (and Torah does not lie). In the dor of Avrohom he might have been even greater or a nobody, but in his dor he was a tzaddik.(BTW Avrohom was not called by such a title!)
Is it “a huge disrespect to them” to compare Avrohom to Noach? You probably think so, but Torah does compare them!
Note: I used the word “compare” so do not twist, distrort or confuse yourself.
Dy,
What brought this up now?
This argument has been hashed and rehashed countless times and no one is changing their position (except maybe cs)
שפתיו דובבות בקבר is a chazal that you are unaware of. It applies talmidei chachomim that are בקבר yet their lips are MOVING! If someone’s lips are moving – is that person dead? Define dead?!
Rebbetzin,
Is it your contention then that the widow of a talmid chochom cannot re-marry because her husband’s lips move in the kever, proving that he is, in fact, still alive?
The Wolf
Wolf – Is it your contention then that the widow of a talmid chochom cannot re-marry because her husband’s lips move in the kever, proving that he is, in fact, still alive?
Obviousley there is various applications and definitions of the word “alive” and “dead”. Reso’im are called “dead” even when alive (an oxymoron) but do Chazal mean to say that their wives are free to remarry without a get?! Chazal say that tzadikim are called alive even when dead (again an oxymoron) but are their wives free to remarry?!
There is an old discussion among Achronim if “Rabi” (kidding) Eliyohu Hanovee’s wife was free to remarry or does she remain married after his departure?! Reb Elchonon (Wasserman) has a shtikel on it too in Kovetz Shiurim
But to get to the point, the talmid chochom has a “din” of dead to free his wife to remarry, but he is not dead like a normal corpse, as he still has a connection with this world and interacts with it..
“You don’t say he’s alive because of those quotes. You use those quotes to defend your mishugas that he’s alive.”
Don’t tell me why we say he is alive, go check up the Rebbe sichos, and see for yourself exactly what the Rebbe said on the frierdiker Rebbe, it’s exactly from these quotes. And the same is the way we hold regarding the Rebbe.
Go check up the meforshim on them. And stop getting your education from other websites.
Stop being a moron picking and choosing to hear what you want to hear, and learn what you want to learn, and twist what you want to twist.
All we have is the words of the Rebbe. And what Torah says on tzaikim. Torah decides what life and dead is.@ RGPANSN
“we are primitive ignoramuses”
Speak for yourself
Apparently the good rebbetzin is not familiar with the RAMCH”L’s ma’amar on agadata wherein he teaches that one who takes agadata k’pshuto is twisting the Torah.
I specifically mention the RAMCHAL because if I would bring up the RAMBAM in this context the response would be rather predictable.
It is people who treat the words of our Holy Sages like something out of a brothers Grimm fairy tail who are both mocking their words and making a mockery of their words.
Let me get this straight, you guys believe he could possibly die, but just happens to still be alive and be the oldest person on earth by now (I think), and just happens to be hiding where nobody can find him?
I know your point is that it’s only kefira if they believe he CAN’T die due to divinity, but at what point is the proof just in the pudding? Will it still not be kefira on his 200th “birthday?” Is it not common sense that he would be dead by now unless you believe something divine is going on?
If not, can we get a concrete date/year at which it becomes OK for us to say it’s kefira to believe he’s still alive? His 150th birthday? His 170th birthday? There has to be a cut-off.
Neville ChaimBerlin
Is yakov avinu still alive now? Or since it’s so many years later he by now he passed away?
How do you explain יעקב אבינו לא מת. מה זרעו בחיים אף הוא בחיים. צדיקים במיתתן נקראים חיים
At what point is it’s kifira if I hold that yakov is still alive?DaasYochid
So let me get this straight, I’m a koifer and the Rebbe is distorting Torah Cs”v when it says in Torah צדיקים במיתתן נקראים חיים.
Very interesting.
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