The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests

Joseph, do you object to asking Hashem to bestow wisdom on those in power?

I have an idea. If those who work for the Israeli government want the tefilos of the chareidim, they should be עוסק בצרכי צבור באמונה. Then they will be included in the tefilah we say every week.

Joseph: You are ignorant in History and the Torah! Please learn a little prior to answering further. Yes, Jews davvened for the Czar even when they were persecuted! So stop being a tippish and stating stupid things! Religious Zionist are not demanding anything! The question is are YOU following the Torah? You will find siddurim from England, Russia, US, Amsterdam all having tefflios for the local government, even when the Jews were persecuted. No one cares what teffilah you say, but a teffilah should be said based on the Torah. So you really need to put a sock in it because you are spewing hatred and ignorance.

Jospeh: please reread my posts again. I clearly stated since WW1 yidden stopped in Germany for ethical reasons. Did all shuls stop, I do not know. What we DO know is Jews did davven for the Czar even during pogroms and forced conscription of their children to the army. That is an historical fact.

The halacha is to davven for your own goverment first. The RZ k owns that. However, achainu kol bais yisroel…..when your brother is in harms way, you should davvens for their safety. If the Russian army has mostly jews, then yes, davven for them too. However, Israel has the largest army of Jews, and one ahould davven for them, especially if you are sitting and learning as they are protecting you.

anon1m0us: Then, at most, your taaina against Jews in Israel who don’t say a prayer for the government is the same as your taaina against American Jews who don’t say a special weekly or daily prayer for the American government.

Instead of focusing this complaint specifically against Yidden in Israel, make your complaint against Yidden anywhere in the world for not saying a tefila for their local government.

There’s nothing more special about the Israeli government than the American government or Australian government. As an aside, not necessarily directly relevant to this point or discussion, America is a greater Medina Shel Chesed for Yidden than the Israeli government. Additionally, due to the violation of the shalosh shavuos and/or a government of Jews who trample Halacha, many have the strong shitta that the Israeli government is more illegitimate than other governments. For them there’s even less of a taaina that they don’t say a tefila for the Israeli government even if they would do so in America for the American government.

As usual anon1mous you have lied again. Your entire point was from the mishna that talked about davening for shlom malchus.you are living in your own fantasy land

anon1m0us: You’re the one who brought the tefila for the local government argument into this discussion.

In and event, since you now are arguing “about a teffilah for our brothers in harms way”, I’m sure you’ll be pleased to learn that virtually every Chareidi Yeshiva and laymen make such tefilas routinely. In fact, whenever there’s an eis tzara in Eretz Yisroel, whether c”v a war or terror attacks, the Chareidi yeshivos both in Eretz Yisroel and in chutz laaretz make special tefilas and tehilim for the situation aside from their regular tefilas they have on more routine times.

So you can now rest assured that this issue is in fact a non-issue.

On page 147 of Aim HaBanim Semecha he addresses a powerful statement in Ahavas Yonason by R. Yonason Eyebuschitz ZT”L that it is absolutely prohibited for Jews to take over Eretz Yisroel before Moshiach, even if all the nations want them to, which is kind of a problem for a religious Zionist like Rabbi Teichtel. This is his response: “You should understand that the words of Rav Yonason only apply when there is no sign from heaven that we should all abandon the lands of Chutz Laaretz, meaning, when Jews can live peacefully outside of Eretz Yisroel … but not nowadays, when the words of the prophet came true, [that Jews will be hunted down by goyim]. So when the nations give us permission to return to our land, can there be any doubt that it is the will of Hashem that we return to Eretz Yisroel? I am certain, that if Rav Yonason Eyebushitz was living with us today and saw the terrible golus that we endure, he himself would say to us: ‘Brother Jews! The time has come for you to go to Eretz Yisroel, for this is the will of Hashem, for it is not coincidence what has happened to us in Golus, but rather it is the finger of G-d pointing to us to rise from golus…”

Ok. Now, of course, even in the days of Rav Yonason (about 250 years ago) Jews were persecuted, and all throughout Golus they were, too. Yet Rabbi Teichtel decided that he knows how to quantify the measure of suffering that Jews are expected to tolerate in Golus, and what on the other hand is a “sign from Hashem” for them to return. He decided that he can read Hashem’s signs and that this, for sure, is what our suffering means. Where did he get this scale? Nowhere. He decided it on his own. He and only he decided that this “sign from Hashem” tells us that the Golus is over.

Well, he can read whatever he wants into “signs from Hashem,” but this “sign from Hashem” has no Rashi or Tosfos to tell us how to interpret it. Nor did Hashem tell him how to read history, nor does he have any sources that his is the proper reading. Since when do we pasken sheailos based on personal feelings? It’s a nice sermon, but Halachicly it means nothing. Yet to him, not only is it Halachicly binding on everyone, but it “there is no longer any room for doubt”.

And it gets much, much, worse. This attitude that “everyone has to interpret the world the way I do” often passes the line into the realm of the absurd. On page 98 he deals with the Minchas Elozor, who was a vehement opponent of Zionism. He was vehemently critical in general, actually, when it came to protecting the Torah. And nobody was beyond his scrutiny. Here are some quotes:

“ ’Whoever becomes an leader in this world becomes evil in the next world’ (Rambam, Tur). The world explains this to refer to the lay leaders, like presidents of congregations, which in many congregations this is true. But if we’re going to talk about our generation and our days, it can be referring to the Rabbonim as well, unfortunately …” – Divrei Torah III:47

“ ‘Whevener there are Reshaim in the world, there is suffering in the world. Who are Reshaim? The robbers.’ (Sanhedrin 113b). This is referring to the fake leaders who “rob” the truth form the people, because they act like Tzadikim and act for their own benefit. They prevent the redemption. Hashem should save us from them.” – ibid 58

“There are Rebbes (“admorim”) who are fakers, they make believe they are Tzadikim, are meyached yichudim, and dress like Rebbes or rabbis. This is all the doing of the Satan in order to bring the public (followers) to sin” – ibid V:82

“The reason why Jews in Germany can learn heresy and still remain religious is because they are like the people who are immune to poison because they are used to drinking it and so have so much of it in their system. So too the German Jews, they are soused to the poison of secularism since they are habituated in it from childhood little by little, that this does not hurt them. That is why they are immune to the bad influence of the Mizrachi and the Agudah as well.” – ibid IV:93

“’And you shall love your neighbor like yourself’ – this means, just like there are different parts of you that you care about more – for instance, you care more about heaving your head than your feet – so too we love the Tzadikim more than we do others. The lowest level is those who are like our fingernails, also part of us, but we clip them off and discard them. These people too are like fingernails that need to be separated from the rest of us, and this is for the benefit of Klall Yisroel.” – ibid II:39

Anyway, the following is Rabbi Teichtel’s explanation of why The Minchas Elozor was against “Yishuv HaAretz”. I promise I am not making this up:

First, he tries to establish that whether the redemption will come miraculously or slowly and naturally depends on whether Moshiach’s coming will be because we “deserve it” (“zachah”) – in which case it will be miraculous, or because Hashem sent it to us despite our not deserving it, in which case it will be natural. Then he says, quote:

“And with this we have an open response to the entire objection of our master and rebbi, the holy scholar, the Minchas Elozor ZT”L of Munkatch, regarding being involved with building the land. For I myself was one of his group, and I knew that his entire objection was base don the fact that the redemption is going to come miraculously, not naturally … But his honor remains intact, for he on his high level believed that the entire world is on the high level where they deserve Moshiach, like he was. But the truth is that this last generation, unfortunately, not deserving of Moshiach, and therefore the redemption will come couched in natural methods.” – Aim Habanim Semechah p.98

I promise I did not make that up. In other words, the Minchas Elozor mistakenly and naively thought the whole world was Tzadikim like he was, but in reality he didn’t understand that the world doesn’t really deserve Moshiach.

Now never mind how Rabbi Teichtel decided he can judge the world and decide whether they deserve Moshiach or not; never mind that he has not one Halachic shred of evidence to back up this position of his; but to say that the Minchas Elozor naively looked at the whole world as much more righteous than they actually are, as deserving of redemption when in fact they don’t deserve it, is beyond ludicrous. It’s downright absurd, and for anyone who knows anything about the Minchas Elozor, totally dishonest. If there was one person in the past hundred years who we would say is not guilty of over rating the world, it could very well be the Minchas Elozor. If he’s not first on the list, he’s second. And to attribute such an attitude to him of all people, is nothing less than the stuff of la la land. And that’s besides the arrogance of saying that he is more able to discern how deserving Klal Yisroel is of greeting Moshiach than the Minchas Elozor.

And would Joseph tell us about the Minchas Elazar not allowing Belz into Munkatch, and the ensuing bitterness which eventually brought a grudging agreement ???

Here we go again. I see that I will have to post this four hundred times.
1. The pasukim cited refer to the kelei hamikdash, not the people.
2. They are aggadata. Aggadata cannot be understood literally (Rambam, Intro. to Perek Chelek).
3. They are not brought down in any of the codes.
4. According to Rav Chaim Vital they were only for 1,000 years (Intro. to Sefer Etz Chaim 8).
5. According to Rav Meir Simcha the San Remo conference repealed them as the other nations agreed.
6. According to Rav Soloveichik (Kol Dodi Dofek) Hashemn has called.
7. The other nations violated their oath not to persecute us too much on several occasions (Crusades, Chmielnitzky massacres, pogroms, Petlura massacres, Holocaust). Thus, the deal is off (Sotah 10a with Rashi d”h huchal shevuato shel Avimelech and Shulchan Aruch YD 236,6).

Plus, Ramban (Sefer haMitzvot, mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) says that there is an obligation in our time to conquer EY. Plus, Rav Kook (Hesped b’Yerushalayim) said that Mashiach ben Yosef, whose job is kibbutz galuyot and the physical building of EY (see Kol haTor of Rabbi Hillel Rivlin), has come. He is either Herzl or the Zionist movement in general (RK does not specify).

It should be noted that Rav Teichtal was an unparalled Torah ilui, and wrote the sefer by memory without benefit of seforim from his hideout in Budapest. He refers to it several times throughout.

Takes,

1. Read it again. He says MBY explicitly. Here is one statement:
בתור עקבא דמשיח בן יוסף, נתגלה חזיון הציונות בדורנו,

He also says that Ephraim (Yosef) is the material side and Yehuda the spiritual side but that they cannot yet work together. In his letters he also says that the reason for the secular Zionists’ anti-Torah attitude is that they do not understand that the Torah includes nationalism and that this was caused by the galut. In fact, his son and continuation Rav Tzvi Yehuda did not like the term “dati leumi” as it implies that the two are separate but some hold by both.

2. We cannot have anything “now”. We have to work for everything. We have to work for professions, for Torah and for Mashiach ben David. This is a gradual process (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). One very important factor is ridding ourselves of sinat chinam and factionalism. Another is to be thankful for what Hashem has already given us. Phil Chernofsky, the Education Director of the OU Israel Center, compared it to three brothers who were hit by a car while playing in the street. They were eventually released from the hospital but needed outpatient treatment. One brother said that if they were released it meant that there was nothing more necessary. One said that if they stil needed treatment there was nothing for which to be thankful. The third thanked Hashem for being brought so far and prayed for the future.

Joseph,
Again, you bring “famous” rabbonim, but you don’t know those who were pro-Zionist because they were basically ignored.
But all that doesn’t mean anything anymore because regurgitating the past is not facing the vivid reality starting in 1948.. Hashem DID want the State, and, voila, here it is BH.. ATZAS HASHEM HIE TAKUM… That’s what’s true and real.. Denial is forever useless.. Have a great day.

Vayoel Moshe, huh??….
Well, …. you know what? …. lemme stop…

Avi.. It’s sick. One of the holy places in EY is Har Herzl.