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Torah doesn’t object to an army in any era.
Wow, talk about blanket statements containing sheker…
Takes3: you have it all wrong. All the people you know who joined the army were ALREADY off the derech and hanging out at 7/11. They decided that if they dont want to be shomrai Torah umitzvos, at least they will have ahavas yisroel.
BH that even though they did not want to keep the mitzvos they still had a kesher to their fellow Jew. This by itself will one day bring them back.Lemme just end with this:
Harav Bentziyon Shurin, who was only 1 of 2 orthodox writers at the once NY Yiddish daily the Forvertz , interviewed Ben Gurion in the early 60s. He mentioned the antipathy many in the frum world velt against him and the State.
BG : No problem. Let them all make Aliyah & take over the whole thing, and run it their way. BG , btw, respected Neturei
Karta exactly because at least they lived in EY.Manitou; I highly doubt you are charedi or learned in Kollel for 10 years. But even if you did, your hashkafos have clearly changed since then. Your screen name alone is indicative of that. The definition of manitou; among the Algonquian Indians) a supernatural being that controls nature; a spirit, deity, or object that possesses supernatural power.
Quite telling that you chose that as your alias.
Your “rational” theme is further proof.Re: Dina Dimalchusa Dina;
Ba Chavakuk vehemidan al achas, “Tzadik be’emunaso yichyeh”.
Lehavdil, Ba Reform & beyond, vehemidan al achas, “Tikun Olam”.
Ba RZ vehemidan al achas, “Medinat Yisrael”.
Ba MO vehemidan al achas, “Dina Demalchusa Dina”.manitou-
i am sure you can respond to all points. by ignoring some, you accept their validity.
3. The gemara says לפום גמלא שיחנא, which means that according to the camel, the burden. A person is not expected to do things that is too much for them. Share the burden as of yet does not have a makor in Torah, except for a physical package weighing down an animal.when did i say torah is in place of the army? once again, like a liberal, you accused me of something YOU did
manitou-
first your arguement was that its a mitzvah to have the army because it is a milchama.
after being shown that to be false you said it is a mitzvah to save lives.
after being shown that not the entire army is necessary to save lives, you moved onto it being logical, share the burden.
after I showed you that to share the burden is not a thing, and fakert, its the opposite, chazal says ,”according to how much a person can take, that is what he needs to carry,” you say that I am the one who is swithc and baiting?
puhleezeZG, also the NK does not take government money, The rest want to have their cake and eat it too.
MrSarah, why can’t they do their service in DF battei midrash, give shiurim to soldiers, etc.?
Mod, actions are halachic issues. Having a yetzer hara is a given.
Uncle Ben
Ba chavakuk…. huh? You mean to say we don’t need to do anything?Takes3…
Common sense doesn’t need a makor. In any case since you don’t have common sense see what Moshe rabbeinu told Bnei Gad ubnei Reuven.Sorry, I knew there was one more that slipped my mind before.
Ba Charedim vehemidan al achas, “Issur Mesirah!”what is happening manitou?
you resort to being nasty, yet again ignoring all that I have said.
You responded to my point, yet ignored it. Amazing.
The gemara is saying that a person gets a burden appropriate for them. How can you force a certain burden on someone, when it is against what the gemara is saying?
Regarding your constant answer of it being logical, many times there are logical ideas brought forth in Chazal, which are then thrown out because it simply does not make a difference, the mitzvah is the mitzvah, the halacha is the halacha. For example, at the beginning of makkos, with bitalta eidim zomemim.logic alone, is good to follow. logic vs. torah, is not.
all the chukim are not logical. according to you, why do them?MrSarah: You failed the first time to convince people that having hakaras hatov towards soldiers is synonymous with leaving Yeshiva and joining the IDF. What makes you think it’s going to work to restate it?
And, again, you keep stating these cases where the state became less anti-yiddishkeit as though they just happened magically or by an unprecedented sign of rachmanus by the chilonim. How can you possibly believe any of that progress would have been made if the chareidim were complacent with the whims of the Zionists like you would want?
Takes,
1. That is referring to a spiritual burden such as LGBT, fraudsters, etc.
2. Rambam says that the chukkim are also logical. We just may not be able to perceive the logic. Regarding eidim zommemim, various Rishonim give reasons. Ramban says that if the bet din din punished the person he was really guilty (eidim mezamim do not say that he was innocent, only that the first two eidim were lying). Abarbanel says that it would undermine public faith in the judicial system to punish the eidim after the defendant has been punished.Neville, the process of teshuva has nothing to do with politics. In fact, it is in spite of the political machinations of the Chareidi parties. It has to do with an inner yearning of Jews coupled with efforts of machzerim b’teshuva who understand today’s non-observant Jews.
Wow…to sum up this post, yeshivish charadim refuses common decency of hakaros hatov and backs it up with Torah while other express Haloras hatov based on Torah.
My answer will be simple, objey the law or leave. Objey the law or get thrown in Jail. Pure and simple. You can bring all the rayis to your court case.
yeshivish charadim refuses common decency of hakaros hatov and backs it up with Torah
Perhaps that’s a good summary of how the haters twist and frame it, but it’s not the reality.
anon1m0us: And my rejoinder is that we will not serve in their army, nor will we leave Eretz Yisroel (where we’ve been long before the Zionist-come-lately’s got there) and nor will we one their laws if it mandates that we serve their state.
And if they intend to put us in jail, let them start building many new jails to house a hundred thousand Chareidim who will jam the streets of Tel Aviv and everywhere else grinding their state, traffic and commerce to an indefinite halt, with more Chareidim joining for everyone they jail.
Joseph: Most yeshivish charadim came AFTER 1948.
I do not think they should throw anyone in Jail. If I was a Zionist (a term antiquated from the 1800’s) I would allow the Palestinians to control Yerushalyim, Chevron and only keep Tel aviv and Eilat. If you are not willing to die for something, why fight for it? The Zionist, as you put it, don’t care about the Torah or Yerushalyim so there is no reason for them to fight for it. If the yeshuivish velt wants it, then do something about it. If you think that is a great idea, please take a ONE day trip into Gaza or Area A before you comment.And yes, causing traffic that puts commerce to a halt is not what the Torah subscribes.
Daas: Obeying the law by signing up to be exempt from Army service is all that is required. A simple mi’sheberech for the soldiers who are fighting for one to sit and learn is a common hakoras hatov. Anything less is a Behama and distorts the Torah for their own agenda. This is not a argument regarding serving in the Army or not. It is about obeying the law and sign up for an EXEMPTION! If people cannot do a simple thing to get exemptions, then leave Israel and wait for moshiach!
Nobody except Lapid wants to put them in jail. Simply take away their benefits. IMHO, just as there is a Loyalty in Culture law (although really I am against all government aid to cultural events and sports) there should be a Loyalty in Torah law. Any institution that does not support the state should have to depend on private donations and tuition. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
BTW, just who are “us”? Have you made aliya?
“Their army?” Maybe you should put some blood on the door post so that “they” dont protect “you.”
Any institution that does not support the state should have to depend on private donations and tuition. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
Great idea. I’m glad we agree on something.
Members of such communities should be exempt from all taxation (VAT, income, business, etc.) as the government should not bite the hand that feeds it.
Can all these posts be sum up in the following: The zionist want the chardiem to serve because of hakaras hatov and the chardiem are saying that we can’t serve. They aren’t denying hakaras hatov , they just aren’t doing it the way the Zionist want them to.
Joseph: “Members of such communities should be exempt from all taxation (VAT, income, business, etc.) as the government should not bite the hand that feeds it.”
Great idea. No hospitals, no electricity, no police, sewers, roads, health inspections etc. that are paid for by taxes. If a yeshiva guy wants to go to the kosel, he can go to the small kosel in the arab shuk, or pay an entrance fee to help maintain the area. Great idea! I wonder how long that would last!
TAS: Zionist do not want chardiemm to join the army. Zionist want chardiem to obey the law and file an exemption from the service. In addition, a simple Mi Sheberech for the SOLDIERS, not the state, to show Hakoras Hatov.
Zionist do not want chardiemm to join the army.
False
Concerning government benefits to “disloyal” citizens. You know full well that the Israeli arabs will petition the supreme court that it is discriminatory, and the court will strike it down. This will apply to the Chareidi community as well.
Daas: Stop listening to propaganda. They want charadim to follow the law. If a charadi applies for an exemption that they are learning, they are exempt. If they are not learning, they can go to the army. If they want to learn and serve, they can go to hesder. There are many options available for all types of people.
anon1m0us: Why should you dictate how one or even a group of people do hakaros hatov? There are halichik problems of saying that teffilah (for example, one can not institute a PERMANENT addition teffilah that was not compose by chazal). Why can’t they express it in other ways?
If you claim that they don’t have any hakaros hatov, than I disagree.
Tas: Halacha dictates a mishibrrech should be said for the state.
משנה ב רַבִּי חֲנִינָא סְגַן הַכֹּהֲנִים אוֹמֵר הֱוֵי מִתְפַּלֵּל בִשְׁלוֹמָהּ שֶׁל מַלְכוּת שֶׁאִלְמָלֵא מוֹרָאָהּ אִישׁ אֶת רֵעֵהוּ חַיִּים בְּלָעוֹ
I know…I know….the mishna is outdated and our gedolim know better.
One of the reasons we stopped was because in ww1 Jews were fighting each other. However, if you look in older day siddurim, they still have it for the queen or czar.anonymous-manitou-avi k,
your childishness astounds me. you approach every topic of discussion in an extremely superficial and childish way.
Since you decided to bash the gedolim, anonymous, I will respond to you.
One thing about gedolim is that they actually understand the Torah that they learn, and don’t twist it to meet their own agendas.Where does the mishna you quoted state that there needs to be a tefilla instituted into davening to pray for the welfare of the state? That IS what you are trying to prove. All it says is that you should daven. Nobody would disagree with that.
your tactics are actually quite sick. you leave people thinking that you gave a valid answer, when it is just classic sheker, the kind with a smidge of somewhat emes, to trick anyone who hears it.
we know that deep down you guys are against the charedim out of hate, as has been shown very clearly.
I love eretz yisrael, the state, and the yidden there, frum or secular.you cant bring yourself to love a yeshivishe or chareidi yid.
so sorry for you
The summary of this entire thread- if you are gonna open your mouth, at least say something valid, dont pervert the Torah and every statement of chazal that you find.
avi k- you said the gemara about lifum gamla shichana was talking about LGBT and others. shameful.
be a whatever kind of jew you are, just don’t pervert the gemara!do you even hear yourself? jews were fighting each other so we stopped. what do you call this entire conversation?
Funny, my Mishana says that one should DAVEN for the kingdom. It makes no mention of the specifically saying a tefillah (written by non-chazal) at kiras hatorah PERMANTLY. Also, this has nothing to do with saying a mishibrech for the IDF soldiers. Want to say tellim for the state? That is a complete different discussion.
Takes3
Like I said before as soon as you realize that you have a incoherent position you pull out the gedolim joker.
It’s really very simple, nobody is obligated to put their lives on the line to defend you. They aren’t being unfair by saying that everyone should chip in.manitou- you dont hear yourself. grow a pair of ears.
“nobody is obligated to put their lives on the line to defend you.”
but the chareidim ARE obligated to defend YOU?I can agree with you that they should logically share the burden. Don’t twist a gemara or a teshuva to fit with that logic though. Don’t attempt to prove your position from chazal or Torah, if your real position is based off logic.
And now, we know that logic is not infallible. Why are you convinced that your logic is?
btw I live in NY, I have zero obligation to be in the army, I am an american citizen and do not live in Israel. Dont pass off your nonsense on me.
The incessant attempts to cv”s discredit the gedolei harabbonim is an old trick that took on exaggerated proportions since the Haskala began about 200 years ago. When it seems impossible to persuade Chareidim to abandon the opinions of the gedolei Torah, other tactics are employed. Absurd, impudent canards are being pushed out, such as the rabbis are being “manipulated.” Or “whatever they say has to be checked and re-checked a million times for accuracy.” And possibly the most brazen of all: that there is a money angle to “keeping the talmidei yeshiva in poverty” while the gedolim rake in $$$.” (Afra le’pumei)
So, which rabbis are being manipulated? Only the ones who say things that you don’t like, and cannot be discredited on the basis of Torah learning; after all, it’s not easy to oppose Reb Chaim Kanievsky’s or the other rabbonim’s level of Torah knowledge. So, other methods are used. He is being “manipulated.” Nothing that he says or writes is reliable. But, EVERYTHING the Dati-Leumi rabbis pronounce is completely authoritative. No manipulations ever. And why, pray tell, do many of them dress up in Chareidi costumes (with a kippa seruga under their homberg)? Are they trying to create some kind of impression?
But, the worst anti-Semitic canard of all is the “money angle.” As if the rabbonim are somehow profiting financially from the talmidim sitting in the Beis Medrash. I challenge those who made such vicious accusations to visit any of their homes to see how they live, and have lived for the past 60, 70, ot 80 years (ad 120). Have you ever been in Rav Steinman zt”l’s apartment, or Rav Elyashiv’s modest home, or le’hibadel le’chaim tovim, Rav Chaim Kanievsky’s or any other of the rabbonim whom you deign to accuse of “making money” off of this. But, if anyone would make such accusations against the knitted-kippa rabbis — I can just imagine the indignant outcries that would appear on YWN. We’d be reading accusations of “anti-Semitic Torah haters” and worse.
And again, all the lamdonim who think they understand Torah better than the gedolei harabbonim — take it up with them, instead of anon1mously bashing their opinions. This infantile talk about exactly how one must evince “hakaras hatov” or “davening for the kingdom” or any other “halachic arguments” — as if you are on a level to argue with the rabbonim. If you change the minds of the rabbonim — you’ve won. If you cannot change their minds (pretty likely the case) — stop badgering the Chareidi tzibur about it. They’re not listening. You have your opinions, and we have ours. We are not out to “convert” you. Stop trying to “convert” us. And stop bashing the manhigei hador. You choose not to obey them. That’s your business. Leave us alone to follow the guidance. of those whom we consider the greatest Torah experts.Takes,
1. If one should daven there should be a tefilla. In fact, in all countries a tefilla for the government was instituted to be said on Shabbat. They are all basically the same with slight variations depending on the government (in the US POTUS and the VP, in the UK the King or Queen as the case may be. The rest of your rant is a slew of personal insults that do not deserve an answer.
2. You may live in galut but you still have obligations to Am Yisrael. If for some reason you have a halachic exemption from living in EY you should at least give of your money.AY, I did not see any post accusing the rabbanim of wanting to profit monetarily. Moreover, I agree that that is nonsense. However, considering the actions of the Peleg in attacking Rav Kaminetsky as well as what the Atra Kadisha hoodlums didto Rav Eliashiv when he reached an agreement with the government on removing ancient graves (which may not even have been of Israelites) I think that he has good reason to fear public pronouncements. I also think that he is saying things in private that is very much not to their liking.
Takes3: You are using the same old ploy liberals use on conservatives. As soon as you lose your position, you go after the personal attacks. Congrats for taking a play from them!
No, I am not against gedolim. I am against people who put words in the mouth of gedolim which is contrary to the Torah. Unless you can provide a name of a gadal that states the torah words I mention arenot valid, I do not believe in the words you say that any gadol goes contrary to the torah words.
You brought a Ran, which we do not pasken like to meet your position. You bring every source to show how Hakoras Hatov is not required.
You have a mishna that states you should davven for the welfare of the ruling government.
The Navi says וְדִרְשׁ֞וּ אֶת־שְׁל֣וֹם הָעִ֗יר אֲשֶׁ֨ר הִגְלֵ֤יתִי אֶתְכֶם֙ שָׁ֔מָּה וְהִתְפַּֽלְל֥וּ בַעֲדָ֖הּ אֶל־ה כִּ֣י בִשְׁלוֹמָ֔הּ יִהְיֶ֥ה לָכֶ֖ם שָׁלֽוֹם׃. It is your achrayus to davven for the STATE you live in; regardless if it is Zionist or not.
We even offered Korbanous for the gentiles in the world in the Bais Hamikdash! But instead of going to the source, you distort the words of gedolim to meet your agenda. You davven 3 times a day for : אַתָּה חונֵן לְאָדָם דַּעַת. Is that just mere words to you?We have Yekum Purkan, Av Hrachamin etc, were all written after Anshi kennes Hagdolah in the 11th & 12th century. They have the official sidder of Amsterdam also having a Mi Sheberech for the state in 1600 hundreds; siddurim from England from the 1800’s for Queen Elizbath, etc Please name ONE gadol who will argue that historically the frum shuls never davvened for the welfare of the state, prior to WW1. I have seen a russian siddur with it asking for the czar. You cannot argue historical facts.
Regardless if you think government deserves your hakoras hatov or not, the soldiers who put their lives on the line for you do!
I am flabbergasted on how people use the Torah to distort the basic premise that the torah states: Derech Ertez Kodma Latorah. Hakoras Hatov is the simplest form of Derech Ertez. And yes, I refuse to believe you when you state gedolim are against this premise of the Torah. I ask you name one gadol that clearly states we do not need to follow it.
And yes, I refuse to believe you when you state gedolim are against this premise of the Torah. I ask you name one gadol that clearly states we do not need to follow it.
Of course no gedolim argue on derech eretz kodmoh laTorah.
Of course no gedolim argue on the Navi.
Yet, they don’t say the משברך and rarely send talmidim (or anyone who asks) to the army. With or without a written teshuvah, those are clear and obvious facts.
The only logical conclusion is that they hold that derech eretz does not mean to go to the army or say that specific tefilah.
You are in fact arguing on them if you think we should be going to the army or saying that tefilah or that not doing do is a lack of derech eretz.
Rramerican_yerushalmi and takes3tomakemangos: Well stated in all your points. You’ve left the leftists arguing with you stuttering the same disproven points repeatedly.
anon1m0us: Would you daven for the Ayatollahs leaders of Iran if you lived there? The Czar or Stalin if you lived in Czarist or Communist Russia? Al Assad if you lived in Syria? The Zionist regime is no different than those. Your pseudo-halachic argument, at near, applies no differently to Iran, Russia and Syria than it does to the Zionist state. Many Jews lived in all four of these countries.
Daasyochid
The fact that they don’t show hakoras gator is a big stain on us, and a major chilul hashem. The only limud zchus is that they feel that they’re in a big battle still against haskolah/Zionism so they don’t want to give an inch.
Unfortunately so many infer the wrong conclusions.Daas: I am sorry, the absent of a pasak is not a pasak,
As I stated, most shuls stopped saying Mi Sherberech during WW1 when the Jews from Germany were in the Army fighting Jews from other countries. It was an ethical question of how we can pray to hashem for our country to be victorious when this means our brothers on the other side were going to die.Based on that, the “minhag” was established. And if shuls accept this minhag, fine. But as others nicely stated, saying tehillim, seeing a soldier walking down the street and say thank you, buying a soldier food, are all ways to show Hakoras Hatov. To argue the point that because you learn Torah, Hakoras Hatov should not be shown is apikoresus! While there is propaganda that the Israeli government is forcing yeshiva bochurim in the army is pure ignorant lies and sheker. All they asked was that you sign up for exemptions; like anyone else asking for an exemption. The issue here is we feel we do not need to follow the law. We feel we do not need to show hakoras hatov to the soldiers, religious or not, who are fighting for our people to have the ability to study Torah. To show a lack of hakoras hatov, to show a lack of Torah learning by breaking the law is what I have issues with. And there are many, many gedolim who do encourage their bochurim to get the exemptions. They discourage their bochurim from protesting that impacts the tzibur.; besides bittul torah.
I personally know a bochur who was not learning that went to a Rebbe in Eretz Yisorel for a Bracha, the rebbe gave him a bracha with LOVE. This is what ahavas yisroel is about! This is what I learned from the Rebbe. You do not need to join the army, but love the Jews that do it and show them the love.
This mere topic is proof why moshiach is not here yet. We cannot love our fellow Jews, regardless if they are religious or not. We can not even show them the appreciation for what they do. Hopefully, one day, we will have yeshiva bochurim who can show their love, their hakoras hatov, to people who are not yeshiva bochurim, but that day is not today.The only limud zchus is that they feel that they’re in a big battle still against haskolah/Zionism
Assuming that is the reason (or for that matter if it isn’t, or if it’s one of several), the fact is that the gedolim aren’t saying it. In no way is it a stain on us for following them.
Maybe it’s embarrasing to you because you don’t understand it it or can’t explain it, but that’s your issue, not an issue with the approach of the gedolim or those following them.
I am sorry, the absent of a pasak is not a pasak,
You’re being silly. Do the gedolim say it or not? If they don’t, that is a p’sak.
To argue the point that because you learn Torah, Hakoras Hatov should not be shown is apikoresus!
Straw man. Nobody said that.
that the Israeli government is forcing yeshiva bochurim in the army is pure ignorant lies and sheker.
Not just bochurim, girls as well. Don’t believe the propoganda otherwise. Why do you think they want quotas? If anyone who is in yeshiva can get an exemption, how are quotas relevant?
The whole idea of exemptions for yeshiva bochurim has been and continues to be under attack.
Daas: Do the gedolim say it or not? If they don’t, that is a p’sak. That is an illogical statement. There are many things they don’t say. They never said a yeshiva boy is who not learning, who is just hanging out, should not go to the Army. Must be they approve?
Yes, Boys and Girls need to sign up for exemptions. No chiddish there. We are our worst enemy! If we truly followed the Torah and showed Hakoras Hatov, I hardly doubt they would try to get yeshiva bochurim in the army. When you are facing people who call you Nazi, spit at you, punch and kick you, don’t respect you, the government will start questioning why are we fighting for them?! Do I blame them? No! I blame ourselves! If we showed our Hakoras hatov and they we truly appreciate what they do, their hatred would not be as great.
All I am suggesting is we start! Don’t know if it will change anything.That is an illogical statement. There are many things they don’t say. They never said a yeshiva boy is who not learning, who is just hanging out, should not go to the Army.
I guess you’ve never heard of maaseh rav.
That analogy is both inapt and untrue.
anon1m0us: I take your silence to indicate you believe the Jews should have been davening for the government’s of the Czar, Stalin, Al Assad and the Ayatollahs.
Joseph: It’s not what I believe, it’s what Yirmeyahu believes. As stated, historically, Jews did davven for the Czar’s.
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