The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests

Daasyochid

You really are a Daas yochid, whether you like it or not the IDF is doing the biggest Mitzvah saving Yidden in their land, כל המקיים נפש אחת בישראל times 6 million.

The army of the Zionist Entity will still attempt to draft you even if you leave Israel; so that’s not a solution.

It’s not an option in any event since a) the Ran paskens every Jew has an absolute right to live in Eretz Yisroel and b) Israelis don’t have the right to move to any other country.

I agree, “the IDF certainly has special religious significance…” Boys and girls serving together in mixed units, even serving together in tanks, tolerating queers in the army, condoning any and all forms of anti-Torah lifestyles, along with (depending on the particular army base) rampant chilul Shabbos. To cite a few “significant” features pertaining to religious observance in the IDF these days. And I already know from previous experience that you will reply with some smart alec comeback that won’t address the points that I’ve raised. Because the concept of a “holy” IDF is an unassailable axiom, regardless of the facts, or of anyone trying to point out the truth.
I do not advocate absurd and dangerous ideas such as disbanding the IDF, some of my sons do reserve duty in combat units, and I am proud that they are contributing to defend Eretz Yisrael and Jewish lives. But, let’s not lose our minds and pretend that darkness is light, that evil is righteous, or that immorality is “holy.” The Rambam writes about “michemes chova” and also writes about chilul Shabbos and immorality. How to weigh which takes precedence? So, most of the Chareidi tzibur follows the decision of the gedolei harabbanim who feel that all these other mitzvos supercede milchemes mitzva. Others think differently. And I’m certain that the rulings of the rabbis who support IDF service even in these trying situations was checked and re-checked “a million times” — as is required whenever we hear a psak from ANY rabbi — we are more or less at an impasse. We don’t expect you to listen to those whom we consider the manhigei hador; you shouldn’t expect the Chareidi tzibur to change their minds either. Some Chareidim do; yes, and some (former) RZ folks now follow the Chareidi tzibur’s derech. So, there we are. We can agree to disagree or continue wearing out our typing fingers.

After reading all of this, I thank Hashem for making me Sephardic.

Joseph:
The Ran said Eretz Yisroel, not the State of Israel. Your right will exist when moshiach comes. In addition, if you hold the land is kedusha, it does not stop you from living ayvar hayardan too. The Ran does not say you are limited to the State of Israel borders.
I do not know where you are living, but you can move to Jordan (still considered Eretz Yisroel, per the Ran). I know, because I have been there. But do keep the torah, you have US, Germany, UK, Spain, Malaysia, South Africa, and many other countries where you will find Israeli’s living. How far are we truly going to sacrafice to be Shmori Torah Umitzvous?

The Ran in Nedarim paskens that every Jew *today* has the absolute unabridged *unconditional* right to live anywhere in Eretz Yisroel.

You missed the point for the fifth time:

The Ran in Nedarim paskens that every Jew *today* has the absolute unabridged *unconditional* right to live anywhere in Eretz Yisroel.

The Ran in Nedarim further paskens that Dina D’Malchusa Dina does not apply, at any time, in Eretz Yisroel.

Dina D’Malchusa Dina does not apply under a Jewish KING who follow the Torah.

If you think you need a monarchy, then dina dmalchusa dina shouldn’t apply at all – not in Israel, the USA, Canada, etc.

You’d be much better off saying we don’t pasken that way than twisting the Ran.

Daas: And thank you. We do not Pasken like the Ran (I am glad I was also mechven to what the Rashba wrote).
Per Rav Asher Weiss shlita Dina d’malchusa dina applies also in Eretz Yisrael and which the opinion of the Rambam, and of the majority of the poskim.

Regardless, the Israeli government does not hold of the Ran or ANYONE else for that matter. So there is really no point discussing halacha when the government will not abide by it.

If you voluntary live there, please follow the law.

Nobody thinks the government cares if we pasken like the Ran or the Rambam (or whether the Rambam would apply to a secular government), you addressed the frum people living there.

It is so silly to quibble over if we Pasken like the Ran or the Rambam. The basic concept of Derech eretz kadma ltorah dictates that it doesn’t make any sense to say that someone has to do your basic responsibility because YOU hold that by sitting in a bais medrash it is equivalent. The Torah didn’t come to negate derech eretz it came to add kedusha.

So are you saying frum people do not need to follow the law because there is a Ran who we do not pasken like?

It’s not so poshut that we don’t follow the Ran, or that the Rambam would apply to the secular State of Israel.

Whether frum people should or shouldn’t follow the law depends on the law. Joining the armed forces is a tremendous
sakana in ruchniyus, so no, someone shouldn’t go to the army just because it’s a law.

The basic concept of Derech eretz kadma ltorah dictates that it doesn’t make any sense to say that someone has to do your basic responsibility because YOU hold that by sitting in a bais medrash it is equivalent.

Actually, Chazal do, and there are enough people in the armed forces without the b’nei Torah, and the army ruins people’s ruchniyus.

Everyone has a responsibility to the tzibur, true, but arguing that everyone needs to fulfill that obligation in the same way is ludicrous. Should I consider you lacking in basic responsibility if you’re not on Hatzolah, or not a garbage collector, or not an accountant? After all, we need Hatzolah, the garbage needs to be picked up, and taxes filed. If you don’t do all of those, are you a bum?

And if you don’t think learning Torah is a benefit to the tzibur, you’re not just not agreeing with me or even gedolim such as Rav Shach (etc.), you’re arguing with Chazal.

Daas: No one is arguing the benefits of Torah. The discussion is can you provide any Rishonim or Achronim that says Torah exempts you from military service?
You have countless examples of Jews leaving their homes and lands in order not to violate the Torah. If military service is against the Torah, leave or be arrested.
Actually, it is very pashut we do not follow the Ran. He is a yachud in this matter.

but who gets to decide who is exempt and who has to don a uniform?

I would certainly hope not a secular government which couldn’t care less if all the chayalim go OTD ch”v, and in many ways encourage it.

And you certainly don’t get to decide that someone who is learning is therefore lacking derech eretz.

DY
It’s a government elected by the people that came up with the crazy notion of equal sharing of the burden.

Also I am not deciding if they have derech eretz, their actions speak for themselves. Basic morality and decency that is expected even from the אומות העולם is for sure expected of Frum Yidden.

Also I am not deciding

Of course you are.

DY, what non-Torah path? Defending Am Yisrael and Eretz Yisrael? I personally think that Rav Nachman Kahana’s plan was a good one. The Rabbanut would give exams. The best performers would get a deferment for a few years (I don’t remember exactly how many) to learn, the rest would enlist. After the few years are up the best would be exempted and the rest would become chaplains. During this period those learning would occasionally give shiurim to soldiers. They would also declare that they are learning for the success of the IDF. This would allow the real learners to continue to learn and give those who are not suited an alternative.

manitou: For the sixth time you’ve purposely skipped answering the point made.

Why aren’t you denouncing that Israel exempts from army service government ministers, MKs, outstanding athletes, outstanding dancers, outstanding musicians, etc. from the draft? Whole classes of legal exemptions are granted and yet you only complain about the exemptions for those that learn Torah.

First stop all other exemptions. Such as of the dancers, musicians, athletes, MKs and government ministers. Then come back and we’ll talk about dropping exemptions for those who learn Torah.

Why are dancers, musicians, athletes, MKs and government ministers exempt from the draft? Doesn’t the IDF need them???

Avi: The Limud Torah of someone breaking their teeth over a gemora and taking a month to finish a daf due to his inability to learn more is just as valuable to Hashem and Klal Yisroel as someone who finishes Shas every month. One isn’t better than the other or doing a more valuable service.

… To clarify… Though Chazal say that Yoav needed Dovid’s Torah, they immediately say that Dovid needed Yoav’s army in the very same memreh. IOW… they’re equal in the eyes of Hashem. I never heard anyone argue that there should be no learning at all. People with good & fair intentions should be able to sit down together and figure it out, esoecially when millions of wolves surround our little Holy land with evil intentions.It’s called , sharing the burden.

Re:Spiritual minefield
Depends for whom.. I have family in IDF, sons of friends, sons of aquaintances. It’s time to stop throwing blanket statement around like that which contain a good potion of sheker.

Re: when everyone keeps the Torah..
If you’re off today, spend a couple of hours with a Nach and learn a bit about what went on there.
Different eras: Torah doesn’t object to an army in any era.
Re: spears vs. jet fighters… lol, I needed that.. Didn’t have my 2nd cup of coffee yet.

Regarding sharing the burden.
1. Do you mean like communism? Thats what share the burden means. Pirkei avos already said, that what’s mine is yours and what yours is mine, is a bad middah.

2. Kol yisrael areivim zeh lazeh does not mean share the burden. It means we need to make sure we all keep the mitzvos. Do you believe in such a concept? It is much more important for us to bring jews to keeping the Torah rather than put them in a situation where, like I said, the majority go off the derech. As i have mentioned, of all my friends that have been in the army, are no longer frum. Most of them are partiers and go to clubs and raves every night. Im talking about kids who grew up in monsey.

3. The gemara says לפום גמלא שיחנא, which means that according to the camel, the burden. A person is not expected to do things that is too much for them. Share the burden as of yet does not have a makor in Torah, except for a physical package werighing down an animal.

Takes3…
Sharing the burden is not communism, it’s common sense that Is even expected from a goy and the Torah never came to take away common sense. Derech eretz kadma…

I love the bait and switch, in one argument you say that learning is in place of army and the next argument is that it’s not for a Frum person because of the secular environment. Which one is it? If we want to be serious about fixing the problem then we have to identify what it is.