The Killing of Nahal Haredi Soldiers and the Anti Draft Protests

Anon1mous- ok, so it is pikuach nefesh. Why does that mean if they decide to band together an army, for pikuach nefesh, that it is an army of klal yisrael that everyone needs to join? It is for pikuach nefesh alone, hilchos melchama do not apply to a case of pikuach nefesh.

And again, even if it would be a real halachic army, it would only be ages 20 to 60. How can you force them at 18 and still claim mitzvah?

There is a vast “army” of thousands of men and women who carry out all sorts of tasks that help ensure the security of the state. Some of these “tasks” are extremely dangerous. But very many of these people work long hours in an “office” somewhere in Israel or elsewhere. They are reading, listening, observing, analyzing all sorts of information that comes their way. That is their job. Most people have no inkling of what these people are doing, or why it’s important. The people in charge of security DO understand the importance of these peoples’ work. Very many of these people have never worn the green IDF uniform and never will. They go home to a warm bed every night instead sleeping in a muddy foxhole. But, the security chiefs all recognize the importance of their contribution.
So, the gedolei harabbonim have instructed us that there is another “security agency” that provides additional, critical layer of protection whose value is incalculable. Even if many people outside this organization don’t quite understand what they’re doing. The yeshivas in which the lomdei Torah are toiling is that additional security agency. One that the public at large knows and understands virtually nothing. This is a dimension of spiritual protection about which the leaders of the state and the security establishment have nothing to say, since they don’t even understand what it is. But, the manhigei hador do understand it, and frum Jews ought to as well.ought to as well.

The burden of proof falls on the person making the chiddush. You know that every major posek does not hold of a chiyuv to join the IDF and actively discourages it. Why don’t you bring a proof of someone who DOES hold of your milchemes chova idea? As far as I can tell, it’s one individual CR user bringing proofs from tanach versus every mainstream rabbi.

The proof that they don’t hold by your theory is evident in the fact that they discourage joining the IDF. So, instead of asking us to find places where they specifically address your weird, new defense for drafting Chareidim, why don’t you supply one actual person who agrees with you.

Your scrambling to preserve your intellectual honesty by claiming we would theoretically have a chiyuv to join the American army proves the weakness of your stance. How much more could I get you do admit in your quest for consistency? Would we have a chiyuv to serve in the Czar’s army if Russia needed defense? Would we have a chiyuv to serve in Mussolini’s army if he needed soldiers? You have completely invented this idea that Jews are halchically bound to join the army of whatever country they happen to be residing in. It’s just not true, and nobody before you has ever claimed it is.

manitou: You failed to address the parallel that American_Yerushalmi provided you comparing it to the intelligence officers who work in offices behind computers and never enter any foxholes or front lines. Or, to use another example, the mechanics who fix the army jeeps; they too don’t fight as soldiers.

So too the Yeshivaleit who work in the Beis Medrash defending Jews all over. Like the intelligence unit, they too never wear the army fatigues.

Neville, I know of no such thing. Of course, you can claim that only your officially recognized poskim are major leaguers but I dispute you.

Avi K, ZionGate

The standard operating procedure of the kanoim especially Satmar is to totally discredit anyone who is from another camp or shita such as what they did to Rav Kook, Rav Mendel Kasher, Harav Khati, and Harav Shteinzaltz to name a few. Then they say nobody argues with their shita. This way they silence even those that disagree with them

Ziongate, where is your post about rav shteinman? I only see one remotely similar by avi k.
Are you the same person?

Manitou,
I’m very, very familiar with Satmar tactics going back decades, so you don’t have to tell me. I didn’t read about it, I was around when they occurred… I’m not 35 years old anymore…. They’re trying to reinvent and revise some of the events, but I’ll challenge them anytime, anyplace.

Limud hatorah helps the entire world. Only an apikores says a learner learns for himself. -rambam? Chazal? (One of those)

Manitou: if you think the gedolei harabbonim are making a mistake in halacha — take it up with them. Stop hocking a chainik in the CR trying to persuade people that you are right and the rabbonim are wrong. You ought to realize by now that you’re not going to get anywhere by telling people that you understand halacha better than their rabbonim.

i posted that it seems thag avik and ziongate are the same person, and ywn did not post it. This is not a free speech place, it is worse than any jewish media outlet there is.

Ywn is not michapes the emes. Hence they are tomchei sheker vikazav.

Manitou: I knew what you meant the first time you said the thing about gedolim. This is how the religious world (which clearly you aren’t a part of) works. We don’t make up our own shittas. Since you have absolutely nobody worth anything backing you up, I really don’t want you waste any more time with you.

By the way, the IDF is a “gentile army.” Israel is a goyish state. If you bring a fellow to a secular court in Israel instead of a beis din, you’re over an issur. We don’t accept the myth of the Jewish state.

Neville chaimberlin
You can keep saying that you have Daas Torah but you still haven’t brought one serious Teshuva or chazal or Rambam to back you up. I don’t think you realize that any supposed Daas Torah is based on chazal and Halacha, not just some feeling.

As far as Israel being a goyish state, that goes clearly against the Rambam when he talks about the reason we celebrate Chanukah שחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר ממאתים שנה and he like everyone who is serious knows what type of rule there was in bayis sheini after the first two generations of the chashmonaim, especially bais hurdus. Still the Rambam understood that it’s better to Be in eretz Yisrael under our own sovereignty rather than under goyim. Can it be better? Of course but serious people don’t look only at the problems, they also appreciate the good that there is.

Mima nafshach-if its a jewish state, jewish laws should apply.
If they should be sent to the army, it should be at 20 and older.
If its not considered a state bound by halacha, why should people go to the army? Just like any other army that we wouldnt say dina dimalchusa dina, go to the army. We would try to avoid it, because it disrupts our ability to live a normal life, and it is dangerous.

Joseph

On what do you base your halachic ruling? The Rambam clearly implies that jewish sovereignty doesn’t have to be Frum tzadikim. Like most of Bayis rishon and sheini we didn’t have big tzadikim and sometimes big reshoim in power, yet it is considered malchus Yisrael.

I meant @ 3:26

Manitou,
Agreed…. Gotta run… Shabbat Shalom

Once again.

I am not satmar. I dont want a single yid to die anywhere.
I am happy there is a jewish state, and would love to live there.

Now, what is your response to the 20 to 60 question? Feelings are not involved here. 20 to 60 is not a feeling.

Its amazing how liberals will turn around what you are saying and accuse you of the very thing that they are being accused of.
It has already been said that that you are the one without a halachic source.
I have never learned any shittos of satmar, and to be honest, am not a fan of satmar at all.

Can we get a couple of things clear?
Fact 1: Combat service even in Tzhal is completley voluntary if a draftee does not wish to serve in a combat position they do not.
As such it is ludicrous to state that someone was forced to serve in combat zones because of chareidim .

Fact 2: THe Medinat Yisrael was founded upon several compromises with the chareidim one of which was that yeshiva bochrim would not be forced to serve in the army. If the chilonim had not agreed the chareidim were willing to publicly disavow the founding of the Medina similarly to Neturei Karta of the time. The chilonim agreed thinking that the yeshiva world would eventually disintegrate. The opposite has happened =, the chiloni youth actively try to get out of the army, in fact many of them try to get out of the country while the Yeshivas have boomed.

Fact 3: There are more then enough fervently dati leumi who believe that the founding of the Medina is aschalta dgeula they do not just serve in the Army they relish the opportunity for they feel it is a Mitzvah that brings Moshiach. That chinuch is completely the opposite of chareidim who believe the state should never have been founded and in fact is ossur because of the shalosh shevuos.

Right, so once again its all about feelings. I can also believe that it is the aschalta digeula, and I do, that does not change my opinion about the army. Of all the people that I know that have joined, family and friends included, are no longer frum, in fact, they are anti frum.
That is something that can be seen with the eyes. It isnt a hope, pr a dream, its reality. People go in and come out less or not frum. The risk is high, benefits are low.
And Once again, once they have filled their quota, there is no need for more draftees. Why put someone in the army that will not do anything to protect the country, like you said, they are only in the army for the sake of being in the army.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. Of course they need to follow halacha.

The army doesn’t need the charedim and the army isn’t a kosher place.

Again, this is NOT a halacha army. They may assist with your religious requirements but are not required to. The law is everyone must serve in it. As a chesed, they allowed people who register that they are learning to be exempt. No other country does that. People have 3 options:
1) join the army
2) register to say you are learning.
3) leave the country
This is not that difficult to understand. If it help most people here, replace Jewish state with Arab state. Faced with those 3 options, what would one do?

No other country does that.

I’m pretty sure the US isn’t drafting yeshiva bochurim.

Daas: the US doesnt have active draft laws.

Exactly. It’s kind of silly to say how Israel is the only country which makes an exception to the draft when other countries don’t have a draft to begin with.

Durikg vietnam, if you were not in Yeshivish, you were drafted

Don’t you think most frum people did whatever they could to avoid going to the army?